Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581:1781]

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Oh by all means, show in the same form what you DID set out to prove. I can't wait.

I set out to "prove" I do not know if gods exist or not.

I have already set out the proof of that.

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

X cannot be established as impossible...therefore, by definition...X is possible.

Not sure why that bothers you so, Mach.

In any case...gods ARE possible. And if gods are possible...it is possible that what we humans call the universe...is a creation.

Fact is...even if no gods exist...it is possible that what we humans call the universe...is a creation of some vastly superior non-gods.

You will NEVER arrive at "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" using logic, Mach. (I know Calamity disagree with me on part of that.)

Playing Devil's advocate. Why didn't God make us all perfect?

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Playing Devil's advocate. Why didn't God make us all perfect?

If there is a god...who knows???

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

If there is a god...who knows???

Holy **** a correct answer. I bow to your wisdom Sir.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Holy **** a correct answer. I bow to your wisdom Sir.

Hey...no problemo!

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Hey...no problemo!

If there's a god, he/she is probably far nicer/greater than anything we can imagine. I bet this life is only leading to something so good we'd crap ourselves if we knew.

Not the reply you expected?

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

If there's a god, he/she is probably far nicer/greater than anything we can imagine. I bet this life is only leading to something so good we'd crap ourselves if we knew.

Not the reply you expected?

I didn't have any expectations, Grip. I do not know you...nor your position on things.

You can assume, guess, or "believe" anything you want about what is going on here.

Me: I just acknowledge that I do not know...and have no unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I didn't have any expectations, Grip. I do not know you...nor your position on things.

You can assume, guess, or "believe" anything you want about what is going on here.

Me: I just acknowledge that I do not know...and have no unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

Frank you're a smart person because you admit the obvious. I believe it's hidden for reason but only time will tell.

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

if you truly believed that you would not be interacting with people of faith

What choice do we have? A vast majority of people on this planet share some kind of 'god delusion."

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Plug it in, see the absurdity for yourself:

P1: A is "nothing".
P2: Calamity cannot prove A does not exist.
C: Therefore, according to Calamity, it's possible that "nothing", is "something". *** ERROR

The fact is that if you do not know if something is possible, or impossible, you do not know. End of story.
Attempting to make a factual claim with regards to reality, that you KNOW it's possible, would require you to bring forth scientifically verifiable evidence. Which you don't have, and can't have, because it's an error (see above).

If something or nothing is impossible to prove, it is possible. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[dimensionallava]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

What choice do we have? A vast majority of people on this planet share some kind of 'god delusion."

do you interact with delusional people regularly?

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

do you interact with delusional people regularly?

A few dozen each and every day.

 

[dimensionallava]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

A few dozen each and every day.

well stop it, stop it right now if you know whats good for you

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

well stop it, stop it right now if you know whats good for you

It would make for a lonely existence...not to mention a hungry one.

 

[RAMOSS]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

It has meaning...and I have suggested it could be "something that created what we humans call 'the universe.'"

And it has meaning enough for people to have discussed it from the beginning of recorded history...right through to this conversation.

In which case, I have to ask you, Why call it god? Is that not defining God into place??

And, that is defining by an action, not what it is.

 

[Mach]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I set out to "prove" I do not know if gods exist or not.

That's hilarious. All you had to do was write that up front. You don't know. I agree, you don't know.

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

That's hilarious. All you had to do was write that up front. You don't know. I agree, you don't know.

I know. What proof do you need?

 

[Mach]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

If something or nothing is impossible to prove, it is possible. Why is this so hard to understand?

It's not hard to understand, it's simply incorrect.

Once again, use exactly what you wrote and test it to see if it is true, or false. Let's make up something, and refer to it as A. It MUST logically be possible, or not possible. (A, or not A) That's logic 101 right? It's either A, or not A. It's either BLACK or NOT BLACK, etc. You with me?

Let's plug in "impossible" for A. (Possible or not possible...we're choosing not possible as a test of your claim)
1. A is a square circle (an impossibility)
2. It's impossible to prove A exists. (from your claim above) T
herefore A is possible. (from your claim above) Which contradicts #1. A is NOT possible.

To be correct you would simply state.
1. A is a square circle
A by definition is a contradiction. (contradictions are not real).

You know why there was the phrase "you cannot prove a negative" right? It was an attempt to clarify what you are doing. You even do it in the response above. Let A = nothing. Since we cannot PROVE nothing exists, it's therefore possible NOTHING exists (according to your claim above). That's obviously false, why are you not acknowledging that? Showing a contradiction in 2-3 steps, I don't know how much more simple it can be broken down for you.

 

[Mach]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I know. What proof do you need?

If you are referring to gods, then you can start with a short, concise definition of it. However...

I would hope if you are religious, you use FAITH to support your belief in God. That is consistent, and nothing wrong with that. It's a stronger certainty than Science anyway.
If you have faith, why care what we think on the matter, because you have faith, end of story.

Why would I want to debate someone who has faith, about matters of "not faith"? I leave that to decide if you still think it's appropriate.

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

If you are referring to gods, then you can start with a short, concise definition of it. However...

I would hope if you are religious, you use FAITH to support your belief in God. That is consistent, and nothing wrong with that. It's a stronger certainty than Science anyway.
If you have faith, why care what we think on the matter, because you have faith, end of story.

Why would I want to debate someone who has faith, about matters of "not faith"? I leave that to decide if you still think it's appropriate.

Very smart response, since only faith has been offered. I don't really care what others think or believe but in time we'll all be on the same page.

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

It's not hard to understand, it's simply incorrect.

Once again, use exactly what you wrote and test it to see if it is true, or false. Let's make up something, and refer to it as A. It MUST logically be possible, or not possible. (A, or not A) That's logic 101 right? It's either A, or not A. It's either BLACK or NOT BLACK, etc. You with me?

Let's plug in "impossible" for A. (Possible or not possible...we're choosing not possible as a test of your claim)
1. A is a square circle (an impossibility)
2. It's impossible to prove A exists. (from your claim above) T
herefore A is possible. (from your claim above) Which contradicts #1. A is NOT possible.

To be correct you would simply state.
1. A is a square circle
A by definition is a contradiction. (contradictions are not real).

You know why there was the phrase "you cannot prove a negative" right? It was an attempt to clarify what you are doing. You even do it in the response above. Let A = nothing. Since we cannot PROVE nothing exists, it's therefore possible NOTHING exists (according to your claim above). That's obviously false, why are you not acknowledging that? Showing a contradiction in 2-3 steps, I don't know how much more simple it can be broken down for you.

Nope. That's not how it works. You can prove a circle. You can prove a square. You can deduce a square is not a circle. But, you cannot prove that it is impossible for a square to ever become a circle. After all, two parallel lines may intersect at infinity. So, perhaps there are conditions in which a square can become a circle.

BTW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

 

[grip]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Nope. That's not how it works. You can prove a circle. You can prove a square. You can deduce a square is not a circle. But, you cannot prove that it is impossible for a square to ever become a circle. After all, two parallel lines may intersect at infinity. So, perhaps there are conditions in which a square can become a circle.

BTW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squaring_the_circle

But if I square a circle in your presence what do you call that? Ah hah, there s no answer.

 

[Mach]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Nope. That's not how it works. You can prove a circle. You can prove a square. You can deduce a square is not a circle. But, you cannot prove that it is impossible for a square to ever become a circle. After all, two parallel lines may intersect at infinity. So, perhaps there are conditions in which a square can become a circle.

OMG. It is not a square that may become a circle, it's a SQUARE CIRCLE, both at the same time. A contradiction.
And it doesn't matter either way, because you are free to insert ANY such impossibility of your own liking, it's a VARIABLE in the proof. Plug any you are comfortable with in, and the result is the same.

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

But if I square a circle in your presence what do you call that? Ah hah, there s no answer.

A miracle.

 

[calamity]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

OMG. It is not a square that may become a circle, it's a SQUARE CIRCLE, both at the same time. A contradiction.
And it doesn't matter either way, because you are free to insert ANY such impossibility of your own liking, it's a VARIABLE in the proof. Plug any you are comfortable with in, and the result is the same.

Time may not exist. It certainly doesn't for the electron. So a square very well may be a circle on some quantum plane.