Why is government necessary?

[Bootz]

I think these are outstanding observations for the case of anarchy.

I think you need to read some history, especially about police forces.

 

[Bootz]

And you sir, are a good broad brush/broad sweeping generalization style dogmatic knee jerk reactionary.
You should by all means continue your search for the hidden marxists in this great nation of ours.

I grew up in a time where anybody who put in their hard work every week was able to afford a roof, adequate food, some means of transportation and was able to provide for a family. A family's health was provided for at an affordable rate.
A little more effort would yield the promise of higher education and advancement.

And yet here you stand, blindly flailing about, pronouncing anyone who doesn't plead fealty to the landed gentry a marxist.
Nobody takes you seriously, except for other equally radicalized fools.

Wally George died years ago.

Not even his children took him seriously.
(Rebecca de Mornay)

That fact that you have a Marxist narrative that guides your thought does not mean you should call someone that does not a radical.

You simply do not understand the statements and apparently your ignorance is bliss.


AS Jefferson said. The virtue of a nation is in direct proportion to the ratio of husbandmen to industrialists. They were clearly anti economic growth and anti gentry. You should be mindful that many of the wealthy Europeans were not farmers but industrialists and viewed as corrupt.

 

[Anarchon]

Yet you haven't provided a solid case for Anarchy

I extricated myself from a cult long ago but you haven't

That explains a lot

You've extricated yourself from one, only to place yourself into the most dangerous one...

 

[OscarLevant]

You've extricated yourself from one, only to place yourself into the most dangerous one...

Please outline what life would be like in your little anarchist utopia you so earnestly believe will take us to the promised land?

You know, every day life, the nuts and bolts of it.

I'm waiting for something beyond theory.

 

[Anarchon]

Please outline what life would be like in your little anarchist utopia you so earnestly believe will take us to the promised land?

You know, every day life, the nuts and bolts of it.

I'm waiting for something beyond theory.

Your government wouldn't kill me if I chose not to let them steal from me. They wouldn't kill me if I chose not to wear a seatbelt. I'd be free to trade with whom I wished and in what manner I wished without their interference or permission. I'd be free to defend myself in the manner I chose from those that chose to initiate force against me. In short, I'd like to be a free man.

Btw, I wouldn't care to "take you to the promised land." It's not my place to tell you how to live. I only ask that you offer me the same respect.

 

[OscarLevant]

Your government wouldn't kill me if I chose not to let them steal from me.
They wouldn't kill me if I chose not to wear a seatbelt. I'd be free to trade with whom I wished and in what manner I wished without their interference or permission. I'd be free to defend myself in the manner I chose from those that chose to initiate force against me. In short, I'd like to be a free man.

Btw, I wouldn't care to "take you to the promised land." It's not my place to tell you how to live. I only ask that you offer me the same respect.

Do you drive on public roads?

Were you ever educated in any public school of any kind?

Did you ever receive a government backed student loan?

Do you use any public services of any kind?

Do you benefit from a public fire department?

Do you benefit from a police department?

Do you benefit from a national defense department?

If you got in a car accident, and because you chose to not use a seat belt, and did not pay mandated health insurance, nor did your business you own pay for worker's comp, and the catastrophic surgery cost's society a boat load of dough, and you received that surgery and you did not pay the tax that pays for it, you are a thief.

Simply put:

If you chose to not pay your taxes, and society allowed you to do that, you would be benefiting from services you chose not to pay for.

Therefore, YOU are the thief, not the government.

If you don't want to pay the tax, then move to a place where you wont receive government benefits, and that would have to be in a country where there is no government.

Let me know when you purchase your flight ticket out of the country, and I will meet you at the airport to wave your ass goodbye.

Yes, the government spends money on stuff you don't want them to spend it on. That is TRUE FOR EVERYONE, it is the nature of taxes.

"For the common good". If you don't like common good, get the hell out of the country.

You CHOOSE to live here. If you choose to live here, you agree to follow the rules by default.

The only way to not choose to agree to the rules, is to move out of the country.

YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE. Quit making a false argument.

 

[Anarchon]

Do you drive on public roads?

Were you ever educated in any public school of any kind?

Did you ever receive a government backed student loan?

Do you use any public services of any kind?

Do you benefit from a public fire department?

Do you benefit from a police department?

Do you benefit from a national defense department?

If you got in a car accident, and because you chose to not use a seat belt, and did not pay mandated health insurance, nor did your business you own pay for worker's comp, and the catastrophic surgery cost's society a boat load of dough, and you received that surgery and you did not pay the tax that pays for it, you are a thief.

Simply put:

If you chose to not pay your taxes, and society allowed you to do that, you would be benefiting from services you chose not to pay for.

Therefore, YOU are the thief, not the government.

If you don't want to pay the tax, then move to a place where you wont receive government benefits, and that would have to be in a country where there is no government.

Let me know when you purchase your flight ticket out of the country, and I will meet you at the airport to wave your ass goodbye.

Yes, the government spends money on stuff you don't want them to spend it on. That is TRUE FOR EVERYONE, it is the nature of taxes.

"For the common good". If you don't like common good, get the hell out of the country.

You CHOOSE to live here. If you choose to live here, you agree to follow the rules by default.

The only way to not choose to agree to the rules, is to move out of the country.

YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE. Quit making a false argument.

I would gladly forego any government "benefits" in exchange for the government leaving me alone. I'm curious...why don't they offer that choice? Good ideas don't require force.

 

[ataraxia]

My primary purpose here is to get as complete a compilation of reasons as is possible. It is not necessarily to debate them, though that might happen along the way. My main interest is to be able to consider them all, so I can be more secure in my own viewpoint. Others might benefit from this as well. If you don't care to list any, that's your choice.

If you can find any workplace, or school, or a neighborhood or condo, or a public swimming pool, a public playground, or highway, or any place where any group of people are gathered, to work without any clearly expressed rules and standards of expected and acceptable behavior, and where those rules are not enforceable, get back to us, and we can talk about getting rid of government.

 

[ataraxia]

I would gladly forego any government "benefits" in exchange for the government leaving me alone. I'm curious...why don't they offer that choice? Good ideas don't require force.

I hear they don't have any government in Somalia or the remote villages of Afghanistan. Try how it's like over there and send us some postcards.

 

[Cameron]

It seems that most debates here begin with the axiom that government is necessary. Is it legitimate to do so? If so, why? Let's see every reason why (or why not) anyone believes that government is necessary, so we can all consider them. Thanks in advance for your participation.

What is your definition of "government"? IMO, government is just the system by which rules governing people's conduct are made and enforced. I don't see how you could ever NOT have some form of government. The key question is, do you have a government where the people with money and other resources control the rules, or a government where the majority control the rules? Democratic government is essential to civilized existence, and I hope to God anyone who doubts that never has the opportunity to test their destructive theories anywhere near me.

 

[Maccabee]

There is universal consent amongst the players of monopoly. It's a voluntary game. Government is not.

And with our government, there's an almost universal consent amongst the citizens. If you don't like our government, then you can find another country.

 

[Maccabee]

Then you "choose" to live here (because of the simple fact that you do not have to live here), and therefore you "choose to play the game".


The analogy, therefore, works.


All nations are located somewhere, so they are not immune from "location" as a descriptive phrase, one among many other descriptive phrases.

Your so-called "philosophy" is delusion, and based on a flawed premise, which is that following regulations, rules, laws, equals being a slave.

It's a question of degrees. In a totalitarian government, such as the previous USSR, your point holds there, but in America? No, it just doesn't.

I will agree that the media, that politicians, that the many people we encounter in daily lives, salespeople,
mailers, TV ads, the do try to manipulate us, but they do not extinguish free will, though they try. That's not slavery, that's just the nature of the beast called a nation.

If you truly believe that, you are lost.

You are free to leave the USA and go elsewhere. If you choose to stay, then you choose to stay.

You are not a slave, you do have free will.

If you CHOOSE to live here, you choose to pay taxes, for if you don't, you AGREE to go to jail.

you AGREE to go to jail, BECAUSE you CHOSE to live here.

Believe it or not, you actually do have free will, and are not a slave, though I can sense you want to be one.

I don't. So I'm not. YOu are a slave in your own mind, it's a mental projection, you have been manipulated into believing this by others who seek to bring you under their spell.

That's what cults do.

I know a lot about cults, many years ago, I extricated myself from a cult which I was being manipulated by for nine years. That's a kind of slavery, and you are now a slave to your "anarchy" cult.

I feel sorry for you.

But, you can free yourself, extricate your self, just burn those books, papers, kill file the websites.

And you too, will return to the free, and be free with us who are not being manipulated by your cult.

This is what cults do. This is what demagogues do, as well. THe Art Of The Con is to accuse others of the very thing they are guilty of. "you have been brainwashed" you say, when it is YOU who has been brainwashed. This is an old trick. They are playing a huge trick on you. And Trump does this, he is the ring leader in the Cult of Trump. He notoriously accuses dems of the very thing he is guilty of.

Meditate on it, you'll get it, sooner or later. But, no guarantees. it took me nine years. I'm slow.

Just out of curiosity, what cult did you belong to before you left? Is it a "mainstream" cult or one with a small following?

 

[Anarchon]

And with our government, there's an almost universal consent amongst the citizens. If you don't like our government, then you can find another country.

"almost universal"...that's about as useful a term as "almost pregnant."

 

[Anarchon]

What is your definition of "government"? IMO, government is just the system by which rules governing people's conduct are made and enforced. I don't see how you could ever NOT have some form of government. The key question is, do you have a government where the people with money and other resources control the rules, or a government where the majority control the rules? Democratic government is essential to civilized existence, and I hope to God anyone who doubts that never has the opportunity to test their destructive theories anywhere near me.

Picture for a moment no government. That's what it would be like.

 

[Anarchon]

If you can find any workplace, or school, or a neighborhood or condo, or a public swimming pool, a public playground, or highway, or any place where any group of people are gathered, to work without any clearly expressed rules and standards of expected and acceptable behavior, and where those rules are not enforceable, get back to us, and we can talk about getting rid of government.

There are a plethora of such examples, all in the private sector. The difference is that the participation is voluntary. Government differs in that it is not voluntary.

 

[Maccabee]

"almost universal"...that's about as useful a term as "almost pregnant."

If you don't want to play then go to another table. We as a society decided to play monopoly on this table and we want to abide by the rules that were made.

 

[OscarLevant]

I would gladly forego any government "benefits" in exchange for the government leaving me alone. I'm curious...why don't they offer that choice? Good ideas don't require force.

Get off this idea you are being forced. You have chosen to live in America. You can choose to live somewhere more to your liking, just do it. Get a visa, figure out some way to achieve residency in that anarchy ( oh, yeah, it's not needed, it's an Anarchy, you don't need a visa ! )

You don't get it. You agree to play the game by default, by CHOOSING TO LIVE HERE, the rules have to apply to everyone.

You can't have rules, laws, codes, apply selectively, or to be disregarded by anyone who feels they are not necessary. That is INSANITY.

Imagine, a borderline wacko, someone who might be a tad afraid of being put jail, now being told that we are going to adopt Anarchon's concepts to America, and what might happen? Oh, borderline wacko realize he can now murder with impunity, because, he didn't like the law and society now allows anyone who doesn't like a law that they can just do as they please without consequences.

See? You wind up with chaos, because, as trump would often blurt, "believe me", there are crazies about. They would love your version of society.

So, in short, if society would allow that for you, they would have to allow it for everyone, and then there would be no roads, no fire department, no government funded studies for vaccines, no defense nothing but a big blob of land under mob rule ( oooh, Russia and China would love that ) and on and on and on and on an so far on it's kinda like, 'there is more between heaven and earth than exists in your philosophy, Horatio".

Capiche?

I didn't think so.

There is no group sufficient in size ( i.e, you have no caucus ) to enact any kind of anything ion this country, or any country that is a country, that will allow your version of how things should be. It can't be achieved because it will lead to chaos.

And how do we get there? Everyone in gov just decides, okay, next week, we will all go home, and screw the maintenance of the roads, the power grid, the nuke plants, screw the water department, sell everything to private and public corporations to the highest bidder?

Enlighten us.

What do I see will happen? I see the big corps taking over, and what do we have then?

Oligarchical Fascism. Thats' what they have in Russia, with a titular head. Their fascism is total and complete, and there is no way in Russia, without a bloody revolution, to put and end to it.

Wonderful, are you happy now?


Oh, I see, you are one of the persons who thinks "private enterprize" can do everything the government does.

Some things, perhaps, but not everything. Government is very necessary. it's up to the citizens to elect those who will make it work for the greater and common good.

 

[Anarchon]

Get off this idea you are being forced.

No. As an aside, do you see how comfortable you are telling others what to do? Why is that?

You have chosen to live in America. You can choose to live somewhere more to your liking, just do it.

The same could be said for the U.S. Government. They weren't the first ones here, you know. Explain why the government didn't have to respect the will of the native americans, but others now have to respect the will of the government.

 

[Anarchon]

If you don't want to play then go to another table. We as a society decided to play monopoly on this table and we want to abide by the rules that were made.

No "we" didn't. You're lying.

 

[OscarLevant]

Just out of curiosity, what cult did you belong to before you left? Is it a "mainstream" cult or one with a small following?

It's one most people have heard of. Not mainstream, though. Left back in 1975

 

[OscarLevant]

No "we" didn't. You're lying.

If you live here, you definitely did.

 

[Anarchon]

If you live here, you definitely did.

 

[OscarLevant]

View attachment 67242615

Choosing to live in America doesn't require a signing a contract.

Choosing to play in a game of Monoply, or any game, does not require signing a contract.

But, sitting at the table you, BY DEFAULT, agree to the rules of the game.

The 'signature" is preempted BY DEFAULT. Therefore, your meme does not work.

By living in America, a choice you have made by continuing to live here, you agree to the rules, codes, laws, BY DEFAULT.

Get your critical thinking processes in order.

 

[Anarchon]

By living in America, a choice you have made by continuing to live here, you agree to the rules, codes, laws, BY DEFAULT.

Is that why Washington D.C. is full of Native American tribe chiefs?

 

[OscarLevant]

Is that why Washington D.C. is full of Native American tribe chiefs?

I then would ask you if you are a full bred Native American.

If you say yes, then I would apologize for the conquerors for stealing your country, but we are in charge now. That's life.

And my point still stands.