Why is government necessary?

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Might does not make right; the end never justifies the means; nor may one person coercively interfere in the life of another. You cannot force me to volunteer!

Right?

 

[veritas1]

America was founded on mass murder, plunder, pillage, rape, of native peoples and the adduction and enslavement of masses of others for the exploitation of their labor.


What was that you said about "liberty" ?

Guess you should leave for greener pastures then.

Oh, and African slaves were not abducted by whites. They were purchased from other Africans who did the capturing. Also, most native peoples succumbed to European diseases, not weapons and warfare. Books are good. You should try some.

 

[OscarLevant]

To quote one of your "Founders," democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what is for lunch. I doubt the lamb thinks his individuality was embraced.

Did I quote a founding father? I looked at my comments, I'm not seeing where I mentioned it.

Yes, among the founders were those that didn't want non-property owners, people of lower stations in life, to vote

Nations evolve, when the Constitution was written, slavery was the norm.

So, are you going to argue "the founding fathers accepted slavery" therefore American should return to it?.

In fact, you are correct, a small select cotorie of leaders way back then were the ones who believed who
should decide what is best for everyone else.

This is why I am not an advocate of what the founding fathers intended where their desires conflicted with just and right for the modern day.

This is also why I cannot accept your premise.

 

[OscarLevant]

I asked for your criteria to be a slave. You either avoided the question, or are saying that you had to be black, and live in the past to be one. I don't think those are rational criteria.

Let me ask you some more questions you can avoid. Did your black slaves pre-civil war receive "mandates" from their masters? Were they punished with force if they didn't follow those mandates? Did they have the fruits of their labor taken from them?

Now, ask yourself if these are also true of the citizens of any government.

Okay,

Slavery is the system by which people are owned by other people as slaves, who must obey, completely, their owner/masters.


Please explain how having a government, voted by a democratic majority ( the way it should be ) creating laws which further the greater good, wherein people have free will to live their lives as they please so long as they do not violate laws which were created in the promotion of the common good,
equals: "Slavery is the system by which people are owned by other people as slaves."

 

[OscarLevant]

Guess you should leave for greener pastures then.

Oh, and African slaves were not abducted by whites. They were purchased from other Africans who did the capturing. Also, most native peoples succumbed to European diseases, not weapons and warfare. Books are good. You should try some.

Doesn't matter who adbucted them, the pertinent fact is why were they being abducted?


After you figure that one out, then take a look at the race of the ultimate purchasers, and I assure you, they weren't African.


That many died en route is a red herring.

 

[Anarchon]

Okay,

Slavery is the system by which people are owned by other people as slaves, who must obey, completely, their owner/masters.


Please explain how having a government, voted by a democratic majority ( the way it should be ) creating laws which further the greater good, wherein people have free will to live their lives as they please so long as they do not violate laws which were created in the promotion of the common good,
equals: "Slavery is the system by which people are owned by other people as slaves."

You thinking it's ok just means you're a house negro. It doesn't mean you aren't a slave. The government will never see you as an equal. Even by your own criteria for being a slave, you "must obey, completely, [your] owner/masters."

 

[OscarLevant]

You thinking it's ok just means you're a house negro. It doesn't mean you aren't a slave. The government will never see you as an equal. Even by your own criteria for being a slave, you "must obey, completely, [your] owner/masters."

You asked me to define slave, so I defined it,

now answer the question

But, here is another simple question let's see if you can answer this one.

You're playing a game of Monopoly with somebody else in your living room.

The game has rules and everyone must follow or there is no game.

Correct?

Now if everyone follows the rules such that there is a functioning effort here, is everyone, therefore, a Slave?

Apparently, according to the logic you are using, they would be.

And that Mr Anarchist is precisely why your premise is bizarre

 

[Anarchon]

You asked me to define slave, so I defined it,

now answer the question

But, here is another simple question let's see if you can answer this one.

You're playing a game of Monopoly with somebody else in your living room.

The game has rules and everyone must follow or there is no game.

Correct?

Now if everyone follows the rules such that there is a functioning effort here, is everyone, therefore, a Slave?

Apparently, according to the logic you are using, they would be.

And that Mr Anarchist is precisely why your premise is bizarre

There is universal consent amongst the players of monopoly. It's a voluntary game. Government is not.

 

[veritas1]

Doesn't matter who adbucted them, the pertinent fact is why were they being abducted?


After you figure that one out, then take a look at the race of the ultimate purchasers, and I assure you, they weren't African.


That many died en route is a red herring.

The fact remains that no African slave could have made it to these shores without black African slave traders. Those people were a critical part of the process. I also never said that slaves didn't die en route. The topic never came up.

 

[LincolnRossiter]

Guess you should leave for greener pastures then.

Oh, and African slaves were not abducted by whites. They were purchased from other Africans who did the capturing. Also, most native peoples succumbed to European diseases, not weapons and warfare. Books are good. You should try some.

Notwithstanding the participation of Arabs and even rival sub-Saharan African tribes in the African slave trade, Africans were abducted by whites. If I hire you to snatch a kid off the playground and deliver him to me, and I then transport that kid across the ocean (or across the country, or the state, or the street) and I then put that kid to work, lock him up in a basement, sell that kid to someone else, whatever, I'd be guilty of abduction, human trafficking, and a host of other crimes. You see abduction can be an ongoing action. Every place I move the kid against his consent (which he can't give) I'm "seizing or taking him away by force or threat of force," which is the definition of abduction.

 

[LincolnRossiter]

The fact remains that no African slave could have made it to these shores without black African slave traders. Those people were a critical part of the process. I also never said that slaves didn't die en route. The topic never came up.

And again, "others did it too" is the very highest form of logical self-defense. I remember using it when I was six.

What a joke.

 

[veritas1]

Notwithstanding the participation of Arabs and even rival sub-Saharan African tribes in the African slave trade, Africans were abducted by whites. If I hire you to snatch a kid off the playground and deliver him to me, and I then transport that kid across the ocean (or across the country, or the state, or the street) and I then put that kid to work, lock him up in a basement, sell that kid to someone else, whatever, I'd be guilty of abduction, human trafficking, and a host of other crimes. You see abduction can be an ongoing action. Every place I move the kid against his consent (which he can't give) I'm "seizing or taking him away by force or threat of force," which is the definition of abduction.

I'm not arguing that point but the assertion that whites were running around capturing blacks in the African interior.

 

[veritas1]

And again, "others did it too" is the very highest form of logical self-defense. I remember using it when I was six.

What a joke.

I'm not defending anything, just trying to bring some accuracy to the discussion. The evil white slave owners are a well worn punching bag but the participation of Africans in selling their fellows to whites gets swept under the rug. I guess bringing up that truth equates to racism in some circles.

 

[Fishking]

It seems that most debates here begin with the axiom that government is necessary. Is it legitimate to do so? If so, why? Let's see every reason why (or why not) anyone believes that government is necessary, so we can all consider them. Thanks in advance for your participation.

That's the wrong word to use. Government in an "inevitability". There will never be a non-government entity that's larger than a commune, and even those communes out there would not stand if there wasn't still a government in place that they existed under.

You either have a government that runs and manages certain things, and provides for the defense of others or you will be taken out by your neighbor and it will be instilled regardless.

 

[LincolnRossiter]

I'm not defending anything, just trying to bring some accuracy to the discussion. The evil white slave owners are a well worn punching bag but the participation of Africans in selling their fellows to whites gets swept under the rug. I guess bringing up that truth equates to racism in some circles.

It just equates to deflection. And I don't know anyone, personally, who isn't at least somewhat aware of the role of non-whites in the Atlantic slave trade--and many slave trades before that. But in the context of American slavery, no one who isn't an asshole is going to buy the argument that a handful of West African blacks who transported other blacks, primarily from rival or warring tribes, from the inland to the coast are on some equal footing in the perpetuation of the Atlantic slave trade as the white traders, purchasers, and owners who moved them across the ocean (12.5M by modern accounts), killed them, sold them, beat them, bred them, split up their families, and made 99.99% of the profits of the despicable business. Hell we weren't even importing them for the last half-century and golden age of slavery in this country (it was prohibited by Article 1). Just breeding, selling, separating, whipping. Starting wars over keeping them. You get the gist. I've never met anyone who made the "blacks did it too" who wasn't a complete confederate apologist jackass. This isn't a hill that conservatives should want to fight on.

 

[OscarLevant]

There is universal consent amongst the players of monopoly. It's a voluntary game. Government is not.

Then move to where there is no government. NO one is forcing you to live in the USA. Thus, the analogy WORKS.

Anarchon, if there is no police, no fire department, no military, you are going to lose ALL YOUR FREEDOMS in short order.


There is evil. Evil LOVES anarchy. Anarchy is a vacuum for which evil THRIVES.


So what is this argument you are making? it makes no sense. Give us the nuts and bolts of your little utopia.


I am curious.


ANd YOU give it, please do not link, I want to read it in your words, not someone else's.

 

[OscarLevant]

The fact remains that no African slave could have made it to these shores without black African slave traders. Those people were a critical part of the process. I also never said that slaves didn't die en route. The topic never came up.

Who wouldn't have made the journey without white Euro bred people purchasing them.


Like I said,

Doesn't matter who adbucted them, the pertinent fact is why were they being abducted?


After you figure that one out, then take a look at the race of the ultimate purchasers, and I assure you, they weren't African.

That many died en route is a red herring.

"ultimate" means that thing for which, if it were not there, the thing would not exist, "ultimate" is the first event in the causal chain of events, which means it is the ACTUAL cause, for there can be no other.

In short,

NO white Euro bred buyers, no slaves abducted.


Your black middle man argument is a red herring, as well.

Even during the slave era, there were thousands of free blacks. Your argument is a red herring.

I won't repeat it, this debate is over.

 

[veritas1]

It just equates to deflection. And I don't know anyone, personally, who isn't at least somewhat aware of the role of non-whites in the Atlantic slave trade--and many slave trades before that. But in the context of American slavery, no one who isn't an asshole is going to buy the argument that a handful of West African blacks who transported other blacks, primarily from rival or warring tribes, from the inland to the coast are on some equal footing in the perpetuation of the Atlantic slave trade as the white traders, purchasers, and owners who moved them across the ocean (12.5M by modern accounts), killed them, sold them, beat them, bred them, split up their families, and made 99.99% of the profits of the despicable business. Hell we weren't even importing them for the last half-century and golden age of slavery in this country (it was prohibited by Article 1). Just breeding, selling, separating, whipping. Starting wars over keeping them. You get the gist. I've never met anyone who made the "blacks did it too" who wasn't a complete confederate apologist jackass. This isn't a hill that conservatives should want to fight on.

I've nowhere made the highlighted argument. And, yes, many people have no clue how slaves got from Africa to N. America. Also, while the argument that black Africans also killed, enslaved and sold captives from rival tribes in no way excuses whites, we also have to acknowledge that it happened. That's not a hill to fight on, just a historical fact often dismissed or unknown.

 

[veritas1]

Who wouldn't have made the journey without white Euro bred people purchasing them.


Like I said,




"ultimate" means that thing for which, if it were not there, the thing would not exist, "ultimate" is the first event in the causal chain of events, which means it is the ACTUAL cause, for there can be no other.

In short,

NO white Euro bred buyers, no slaves abducted.


Your black middle man argument is a red herring, as well.

Even during the slave era, there were thousands of free blacks. Your argument is a red herring.

I won't repeat it, this debate is over.

There was no debate, just you giving the portion of the story that interests you most.

 

[Anarchon]

Then move to where there is no government.

No.

If I told you to move, would you obey? No. Then why should I obey you? What gives you authority over me, where I have none over you?

NO one is forcing you to live in the USA.

Yes, the government is. The USA is a government-defined nation, not a location.

So what is this argument you are making? it makes no sense. Give us the nuts and bolts of your little utopia.


I am curious.


ANd YOU give it, please do not link, I want to read it in your words, not someone else's.

It makes no sense to you, because you've been brainwashed, and are not rational. My philosophy is simple, rational, and internally consistent. I believe the initiation of force is wrong. I don't care to define a utopia. I don't care to tell you how to live. I just want to be left alone. You and your ilk cannot do that.

You institutionalize the initiation of force, in order to protect you from the initiation of force. This is not rational.

 

[OscarLevant]

There was no debate, just you giving the portion of the story that interests you most.

No, you don't understand causality. The fact that there were black middlemen doesn't prove cause.

 

[OscarLevant]

No.

If I told you to move, would you obey? No. Then why should I obey you? What gives you authority over me, where I have none over you?


Yes, the government is. The USA is a government-defined nation, not a location.



It makes no sense to you, because you've been brainwashed, and are not rational. My philosophy is simple, rational, and internally consistent. I believe the initiation of force is wrong. I don't care to define a utopia. I don't care to tell you how to live. I just want to be left alone. You and your ilk cannot do that.

You institutionalize the initiation of force, in order to protect you from the initiation of force. This is not rational.

Then you "choose" to live here (because of the simple fact that you do not have to live here), and therefore you "choose to play the game".


The analogy, therefore, works.


All nations are located somewhere, so they are not immune from "location" as a descriptive phrase, one among many other descriptive phrases.

Your so-called "philosophy" is delusion, and based on a flawed premise, which is that following regulations, rules, laws, equals being a slave.

It's a question of degrees. In a totalitarian government, such as the previous USSR, your point holds there, but in America? No, it just doesn't.

I will agree that the media, that politicians, that the many people we encounter in daily lives, salespeople,
mailers, TV ads, the do try to manipulate us, but they do not extinguish free will, though they try. That's not slavery, that's just the nature of the beast called a nation.

If you truly believe that, you are lost.

You are free to leave the USA and go elsewhere. If you choose to stay, then you choose to stay.

You are not a slave, you do have free will.

If you CHOOSE to live here, you choose to pay taxes, for if you don't, you AGREE to go to jail.

you AGREE to go to jail, BECAUSE you CHOSE to live here.

Believe it or not, you actually do have free will, and are not a slave, though I can sense you want to be one.

I don't. So I'm not. YOu are a slave in your own mind, it's a mental projection, you have been manipulated into believing this by others who seek to bring you under their spell.

That's what cults do.

I know a lot about cults, many years ago, I extricated myself from a cult which I was being manipulated by for nine years. That's a kind of slavery, and you are now a slave to your "anarchy" cult.

I feel sorry for you.

But, you can free yourself, extricate your self, just burn those books, papers, kill file the websites.

And you too, will return to the free, and be free with us who are not being manipulated by your cult.

This is what cults do. This is what demagogues do, as well. THe Art Of The Con is to accuse others of the very thing they are guilty of. "you have been brainwashed" you say, when it is YOU who has been brainwashed. This is an old trick. They are playing a huge trick on you. And Trump does this, he is the ring leader in the Cult of Trump. He notoriously accuses dems of the very thing he is guilty of.

Meditate on it, you'll get it, sooner or later. But, no guarantees. it took me nine years. I'm slow.

 

[OscarLevant]

The fact remains that no African slave could have made it to these shores without black African slave traders. Those people were a critical part of the process. I also never said that slaves didn't die en route. The topic never came up.

Black middlemen are not the reason that slavery existed.

Demand by Euro bred buyers, plantation owners, etc., was the ultimate reason for slavery.


There's more to the story, of course, but that's the simple version.

 

[Anarchon]

I know a lot about cults, many years ago, I extricated myself from a cult which I was being manipulated by for nine years.

That explains a lot

 

[OscarLevant]

That explains a lot

Yet you haven't provided a solid case for Anarchy

I extricated myself from a cult long ago but you haven't

That explains a lot