A_Wise_Fool
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- Apr 24, 2007
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- Political Leaning
- Conservative
Then why are the standards lowering? It doesn't matter how applicable to the business world the education system is at all. The status of the business world has no bearing on how well a kindergardener learns the ABCs, how an 8th grader writes a paper, or how a highschool senior places on the SATs. They once could adhere to a higher standard and now they can't. Why?All of your above post has proved my point. The current and former education system wasnt intended to educate, it was to create "good workers". Ones that would never challange the authority of their "superiors".
No, we need math teachers who understand algebra and trig. Far too many teachers in math simply write formulas and do not thoroughly explain the logic behind these things. From my personal experience, the best math teachers are the ones that can do this, the ones that understand the logic behind the math. That is achieved by when prospective math teachers take some of the more rigorous mathematics courses in college.Are you implying that we need highly qualified math professors to teach algebra and trig to high school students?
In math especially, being an experienced teacher doesn't mean you're a teacher that can captivate young adults with mathematics. Anecdotally, the best math teachers I have had have been relatively young. There is only a limited correlation between years of teaching and how talented you are in the trade.Well, we don't. If you know how to do it, and how to teach it, a math teacher who can do calculus is more than enough for anything taught in public schools. Some school districts are playing the game of "highly qualified" teachers to make it appear that they care about providing a good education to the public. Fact is, they like to drive out the more qualified teachers who have been working longer in the profession so they can hire in newer, younger, lower paid teachers. My wife was given $80K to retire early!
The number of hours worked has been seriously
understated here by some. Try teaching language arts, for example. Grading papers in that subject is a lot more time consuming than grading a simple test.
So how many I-bankers do you actually know, or even know through a friend? I would not contend that all teachers are lazy or that there aren't some who go above and beyond, yet I do believe that the current system does not encourage the majority of teachers to go above and beyond.Pay in some areas is pretty good, after 20 years on the job. The real issue is starting pay. It is criminal, IMHO, to expect someone to start at $32K for a job that consists of managing the behaviour of 30 plus kids while trying to teach them at the same time. They earn the time off, trust me on that. My wife, mother-in-law, son, and a niece are all teachers. There is stress on the job, expecially when you have to teach a bunch of ill mannered brats who don't want to be there and the parents and administration won't do their part in making the system better.
Some teachers suck, some are excellent, most are in the middle, just like any other profession. And most of us non-teachers don't have what it takes to do the job.
How about we start a thread why Investment bankers should be paid less?
After all, they are mostly a bunch of greedy, selfish, money grubbers who will eventually be put in prision for fraud, right?
“Come on now, you cant possible believe (hopefully) that the education standards are what is bringing down American education. If you do, than your motivated by some type of special interests. Or just plain faulty logic…”
“How does a student in the "info age" prosper from an education system that was structured and designed on taking people from rural areas and turning them into good factory workers with meaningless mindless structure??? I'd love to hear this response…”
‘Since i am a current college student (although not first year), i can answer that honestly. High school did absolutely nothing to prepare me for college. Nothing!!!”
“Nobody cares if you don’t come to class. You don’t have to ask certain things like, "can i leave the room?" Punctuality is less important, because it is the student who misses out. There is much more of an emphasis on out of class studying, and in my experience we have never had in class time to work on assignments.”
“Bottom line, the education system is stuck in another time period. There is no need to fix the problem, they need to remove the problem and start from scratch…”
"How does that system fit into a world where assembly lines have gone away?
Toffler said, “How does that system fit into a world where assembly lines have gone away?”
“The public school system is designed to produce a workforce for an economy that will not be there. And therefore, with all the best intentions in the world, we're stealing the kids' future.”
“When I was a student, I went through all the same rote repetitive stuff that kids go through today. And I did lousy in any number of things. The only thing I ever did any good in was English. It's what I love. You need to find out what each student loves. If you want kids to really learn, they've got to love something. For example, kids may love sports. If I were putting together a school, I might create a course, or a group of courses, on sports. But that would include the business of sports, the culture of sports, the history of sports -- and once you get into the history of sports, you then get into history more broadly.”
“It's open twenty-four hours a day. Different kids arrive at different times. They don't all come at the same time, like an army. …..They don't just ring the bells at the same time. They're different kids. They have different potentials. ….. I would have nonteachers working with teachers in that school, I would have the kids coming and going at different times that make sense for them.”
“Maybe it's important for teachers to quit for three or four years and go do something else and come back. They'll come back with better ideas. They'll come back with ideas about how the outside world works…”
Utah Bill
Fact is, they like to drive out the more qualified teachers who have been working longer in the profession so they can hire in newer, younger, lower paid teachers. My wife was given $80K to retire early! This is a major issue. An argument can be made for change, since I know many older teachers that are good but are very resistant to changing their ways and adusting to the changes that administrators are trying to implement in order to adjust with societal issues
Pay in some areas is pretty good, after 20 years on the job. The real issue is starting pay. It is criminal, IMHO, to expect someone to start at $32K for a job that consists of managing the behaviour of 30 plus kids while trying to teach them at the same time. Yeah…if a teacher can deal with the difficult task of “dealing with kids” then the rest is really pretty easy. The difficulty IMO isn’t really the starting pay…how much pay does a 23 year old really need considering within ten years they will be making 60K or more? Gotta tall you though that I was making $51K after three years of teaching and I started at $44K…so not all teachers start out with low salaries.
The issue IMO is the “tenure” system. Districts can string along qualified teachers year after year with one year contracts since there are not any “tenured” positions available. I left teaching in California for this reason. No job security at all. They earn the time off, trust me on that. My wife, mother-in-law, son, and a niece are all teachers. There is stress on the job, expecially when you have to teach a bunch of ill mannered brats who don't want to be there and the parents and administration won't do their part in making the system better. I agree with that part. Disrespect…Cell phones…I Pods…etc etc are rampant. IF a teacher can understand how to handle kids, then they will do just fine. Teaching is just like parenting…structure and consistency.
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No, we need math teachers who understand algebra and trig. Far too many teachers in math simply write formulas and do not thoroughly explain the logic behind these things. From my personal experience, the best math teachers are the ones that can do this, the ones that understand the logic behind the math. That is achieved by when prospective math teachers take some of the more rigorous mathematics courses in college.
It isn't that demanding. You have to read papers with a limited amount analysis. Once again, the hours are nowhere near that of the more demanding fields in business or law. Considering that teachers receive two months off of the year (plus other breaks) that would likely makeup for any possible extra hours they work compared to the general populace.
So how many I-bankers do you actually know, or even know through a friend? I would not contend that all teachers are lazy or that there aren't some who go above and beyond, yet I do believe that the current system does not encourage the majority of teachers to go above and beyond.
The above generalization about I-bankers is incorrect. Smearing I-bankers is petty at best. Simply because they make more out of undergrad than most people will make in a lifetime does not mean they're all evil. The individuals who do land a job in I-banking often work very hard to get into the schools that are recruited for I-Banking positions (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, NYU (Stern), Stanford, UPenn, and a few other select schools). Then they have to work to maintain a high (at least a 3.5) GPA at those competitive universities. Even with all of that there is no guarantee that they'll even land a position in I-banking. A teacher doesn't need to work even close to that hard to land a job. The teacher will also not work anywhere near the hours entry-level analysts work (100 hours a week). Therefore, there is no reason they should even be paid close to what I-Bankers make (180,000-250,000 out of undergraduate). If there were teachers that did indeed work this hard then I would prefer a system that rewards them for that rather than the current system that rewards teachers for holding a position for a number of years.
They are not paid an exceptional amount of money because the craft has 1. a Large labor supply
What?! There is always a demand for more teachers!
2. Requires a limited amount of training
What?! My state requires an M.A. after working for three years with a B.A. Few professions require that. NOt prefer it. Require it.
3. Works for 2/3rds of the year.
And gets PAID for 2/3rds of the year. Many of us choose to have our paychecks spread out over the entire year. But, we are NOT paid for summer vacations. That's why so many teachers have summer jobs.
and 4. Does not work that many hours close (compared to the most lucrative fields)
What?! Most teachers arrive 1/2hour to 1 hour before school begins. Then work the 8 hour school day. Then work for an additional 1-2 hours after school is let out. Then take home a load of papers to grade and lessons to plan.
5. There have been a number of restrictions on pay implemented by administrations bending to union lobbying.
If it weren't for the lobby, teachers would still be making $50 a month with room and board.
Primary and secondary teachers will also never garner the salaries of I-bankers and Corporate Lawyers because they do not endure nearly as much stress, work as many hours, or in the case of law, have to seek three more years of intense education.
One wonders, how does an Investment banker working 100 hours a week have time to post here?No stress??? :rofl No offense - but are you for real?
Are you trying to repitition me into your opinion? LOL! :lol:
Is that the type of education that you had...brainwashing? Haha I understand your frustration now. kidding...I'm only kidding.
At least provide some level of evidence. Examples. Links. Personal experience.
ADA is INDEPENDENT of "actual educational progress". Don't you realize this? You are muddling the two issues, thus convoluting the matter.
At ALL of the schools that I have worked at...Attendence was never once "soaring" and all of our objective standards regarding curriculum were high and ultimately raised periodically. This is first hand experience and it is the same story that I hear from educators WORLD WIDE.
Utah Bill
Administration making changes? Yes. Administration changes. Not BAD administration changes...just aministration changes.The ones we have experienced in Idaho, Arizona, and Utah are the problems, not the problem solvers. That is one example. I too am a teacher and I worked in the Western States and know administrators and teachers in CA, AZ, OR, and Wash. I know and have heard of bad administrators. They exist. Lets move past the few horrible ones that exist and realize that they are the minority and not the rule. Most come in with solid ideas about how to adjust and they actually do care. You sound older and totally jaded. If you had nothing but bad experiences, that might be a problem...but then again, perhaps you and your wife are examples of older teachers and such that resist change?? I like you and have always respected your opinions, so don't take that as an insult. It is not. In Idaho, the Superintendent fought the parents who wanted Kindergarten, saying we "don't want to make our children like Robots". He was a jock in his younger years and wanted funds for more athletic facilities, was against advanced classes in the junior high school as well. That totally sucks and that guy should be fired and never hired again
Very few of the teachers in those and most western states have Tenure available to them, ver few NEW teachers in most western states have Tenure available to them. There are LOTS of tenured teachers thoughand very few are in a union. I would say that almost every single teacher that I know in all the states is in a union, but I was in CA as you are about to mention and I only know a few in ID and AZ. You have the experience there and it sounds like we taught in different worlds. I retract my jaded comment. You sound realistic just like I always thought. Obviously I am not editing this and just typing what I think as I read :2razz: I suspect that is an issue in many states but not so much the west (excluding the left coast state of CA, and maybe OR).
My son has been teaching for over 10 years now in AZ, 8th grade Science, and has his masters degree. He is just barely getting close to $50K per year, but take a look at his benefits. After three years teaching in CA with my Master at the high school level I was making $52K a year. Quite different. But cost of living and all of that might be a factor?The school district only offers insurance at reasonable cost to the teacher, to add his family is over $10K per year!Health insurance for teachers is a joke...but that is the government letting health care costs ream the people and teachers are just feeling it.
As for how much a 23 year old starting out NEEDS? Not muchThink about that one a bit. I have and this is a whole different story about what people THINK they need versus what they ACTUALLY need. Two parents at 30-40K each a year is PLENTY of money to start having kids and saving for their future house and education. Most wait a few years to find their spouse and then a year or so to get married and then most will wait a few years for kids anyway. Realistically, kids start appearing in the late twenties nowadays and that means that the parents had five years of $60K plus years to save and such. It is all how you look at it. My wife and I did it. We had two kids 18 months apart and it is working for usAre we telling them they have to wait until they have 10 years on the job to marry, have children? Do we apply the same logic to those young people in other professions?
Golden Boy
The results: The school's attendance policy increased from under 70% to 91%. I dont know this for sure, but i would be willing to bet the 9% who didnt show up failed (kinda makes sense).
Couple this with the fact that only 55% of Florida students in the class of 2000 actually graduated (this date correlates with my above statement) and there you see the problem.
Like I just pointed out they don't have to wait. We agree that there are huge problems in education nationwide...right? What is to be done about it then? I for one, left the country and am now in education in another country in the South Pacific because of many of the issues that we have outlined and because I don't see them getting better anytime soon...
Utah Bill
Older and jaded? Quote By Bodi: "I retract my jaded comment" Maybe you missed that in my last post? are you young and progressive? YEs. Iwill be old and progressive too, as you undoubtedly are!you can be old and progressive, and if you have been reading my posts you would know that I think the curriculum needs to be updated to match real careers available to the up and coming generations. Curriculum in Math and English...Fine. History...Not Fine? Incorrect. I am a Social Science and Science teacher...double credential and the way I teach history is to NOT water it down BUT to get into the meat of the issues and make the kids think about all aspects of the issue and correlate it to other instances...past and future AND present. That is just part of. It is more dynamic than that so please don't put down what you are not understanding. History is where kids learn to actually think IMO and then relate it to real world experience Critical Thinking Analysis and such. Most kids don't realize what they learned until they get a bit older and Math and English are things that are not used in the REAL WORLD as often as Critical Thinking skills gained in History IMHO LOL! :lol: My wife is not likely to have her teaching skills get old, the english language hasn't changed much (at least not for the better) in the last 40 years. Math doesn't change much either, not at the high school level. Adding something here, history as it is taught is a complete waste of time. It is so whitewashed and watered down that high school graduates know almost nothing of US history, much less world history. ridiculous
As for starting pay, you are assuming that both parents work. No I am not. Didn't I say that we are doing it on my income alone? If not...we are.IMHO, one of the parents should stay home with the children until they enter first grade. If that is old fashioned, so be it. Surely you can vouch for the idea that having a stay at home parent is better for their younger years. that is what we do and it works just fineMy wife started the same year our youngest started school, and still managed a 27 year teaching career.
The education system needs work, but the inertia that has to be overcome to get the changes started is probably overwhelming to most of those who could actually effect the changes. And then there is the problem of getting busy parents involved. Good luck on that!
Congratulations on being a good history teacher, but you have to know you are in the minority. My history teachers back in the early 60s were terrible, one was the football coach, he just had us read and then take quizzes. The ones my kids had were better but they had honors classes available to them. When I took college courses, that is when history became interesting and meaningful.Yes...we agree that it needs a massive overhaul :2razz:
I wonder though...what was the graduation rate prior to the increase in Attendence? I bet it was below 55%.
How many people can be teachers? Lots. How many people can deal with the lifestyle and mental demands of I-banking or corporate law, few. Therefore, the pay is quite different because of a limited number of people who are qualified to work in the latter fields. That is not meant to suggest that teachers do not serve an important function. There is simply a larger supply of people who can do it. We need janitors, yet that does not mean they are paid exceptionally high salaries.How many teachers do we need to do the job? Lots. How many investment bankers do we need? Very few. Which job is more important? BTW, look up the word SARCASM and apply that to my comment about bankers.
You want us to think that you are speaking with authority about teaching but you have none in the minds of those of us who have taught or are closely related to those who teach. Have you ever had to read 150 papers and grade them? Grading language arts papers is very time consuming compared to grading a math test.
However, the point of math isn't just to use it in real life. The teaching purpose is also to strengthen one's logical skills because math requires a degree of logical rigor not present in most other fields. I think a balance of both is needed in our schools, communication and understanding. I would agree that there are a number of theorists who fail to communicate their ideas effectively and that is an issue that needs to be addressed in some American Universities.As for math, I agree that a teacher who understands it can do a better job, but that doesn't mean that they can transfer that understanding to the student. My USN techical schools had better math teachers than the high school I attended, and those guys were non-degreed enlisteds doing the teaching. Theory and logic behind math is wonderful, to a person who wants to be a math major, but mostly a waste of time to those of us who just want to be able to use it. First time I took calculus, the professor wasted lots of time on proofs, very little time on the application of it. If it wasn't for an engineer friend who helped me, I would have failed. The engineering classes that I took, if taught by an actual engineer, were a lot easier than those who were the theorists.
I never said teachers face no stress, they just do not face the same amount of stress.No stress??? :rofl No offense - but are you for real?
So does every teacher find a permanent job? No, there are plenty who have to go into very poor urban areas and very poorly paying rural areas. The exception is in math and the sciences.What?! There is always a demand for more teachers!
Your state may require that. However, that does not mean that most states require such certification.What?! My state requires an M.A. after working for three years with a B.A. Few professions require that. NOt prefer it. Require it.
I was explaining that this is why teachers are not paid a large salary. They do not work as much as most other professions. I did not say that they were paid for a years worth of work.And gets PAID for 2/3rds of the year. Many of us choose to have our paychecks spread out over the entire year. But, we are NOT paid for summer vacations. That's why so many teachers have summer jobs.
Do you have a more aggregate measure of how many hours most teachers work? I would contend that few of them ever work 100 hour weeks or even 80 hour weeks. I-Bankers and corporate lawyers do that consistently. There are exceptions, but in general teachers do not work near this amount.What?! Most teachers arrive 1/2hour to 1 hour before school begins. Then work the 8 hour school day. Then work for an additional 1-2 hours after school is let out. Then take home a load of papers to grade and lessons to plan.
If teachers are always in demand then how would this be true?If it weren't for the lobby, teachers would still be making $50 a month with room and board.
I am not an investment banker. For the point of clarification.One wonders, how does an Investment banker working 100 hours a week have time to post here?
SFLRN
I never said teachers face no stress, they just do not face the same amount of stress.
tristanrobin
What?! My state requires an M.A. after working for three years with a B.A. Few professions require that. NOt prefer it. Require it.
SFLRN
Your state may require that. However, that does not mean that most states require such certification.
tristanrobin...California does not require this and California maintains some of the highest teacher qualification standards. You must have a B.A. with a Teacher Credential. What state do you live in because I literally find it impossible to believe that a teacher at any K-12 MUST have a Masters Degree in order to teach.
That being said...there are tons of shitty teachers with high qualifications. Qualifications don't mean anything about whether or not the individual can teach. This is the point I was making with Golden Boy about college professors. Most are “Academia” and can't teach.
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