Why I think abortion should be illegal

[nathanjames1791]

Ive rather become tired of all the arguments about abortion on these forums. Its the same arguments over and over and over etc.

Heres my real issue with abortion.

Its not rape victims

Its not people who truthfully cant afford a child

Its none of the things that pro-choicers tend to bring up.

Its people who use abortion as a form of birth control. They dont bother with condoms or BC pills becuase if they get pregnant they can go get an abortion. Tons of people do this. Mostly younger people, like teens and people in their twenties. This is my real problem with abortion. I think this is the majority of abortions, and I think if the option of an abortion was no longer there people would simply buy alot more birth control and be more careful. There would be no huge boom of babies. There would not be tons of unwanted babies flooding the system, becuase these are not the babies being aborted most of the time.

This is what I want to stop with abortion. Is that so wrong?

 

[Paschendale]

Tons of people do this.

This is where you lost it. The "abortions as birth control" crowd is actually astoundingly small. It's not common at all. And it's not a bunch of reckless teenagers who don't think about the future. That's just old people grumbling, as old people have done for thousands of years. I look forward to grumbling when I'm old, too.

You may "think this is the majority of abortions", but you'd be wrong. Very wrong.

 

[nathanjames1791]

This is where you lost it. The "abortions as birth control" crowd is actually astoundingly small. It's not common at all. And it's not a bunch of reckless teenagers who don't think about the future. That's just old people grumbling, as old people have done for thousands of years. I look forward to grumbling when I'm old, too.

You may "think this is the majority of abortions", but you'd be wrong. Very wrong.

I could be wrong but I think ALOT of people blame there reason for getting an abortion on finincial problems and other things but 99% of the time thats bull. The truth is nobody is ready for kids. Most people who get abortions get them becuase having a kid would be too big of an inconvenience.

 

[Removable Mind]

Ive rather become tired of all the arguments about abortion on these forums. Its the same arguments over and over and over etc.

Heres my real issue with abortion.

Its not rape victims

Its not people who truthfully cant afford a child

Its none of the things that pro-choicers tend to bring up.

Its people who use abortion as a form of birth control. They dont bother with condoms or BC pills becuase if they get pregnant they can go get an abortion. Tons of people do this. Mostly younger people, like teens and people in their twenties. This is my real problem with abortion. I think this is the majority of abortions, and I think if the option of an abortion was no longer there people would simply buy alot more birth control and be more careful. There would be no huge boom of babies. There would not be tons of unwanted babies flooding the system, becuase these are not the babies being aborted most of the time.

This is what I want to stop with abortion. Is that so wrong?

Total nonsense...prove your claim that abortion is used as birth control...meaning each and every time a specific woman who believes that each time she has unprotected sex, or she fails to use a contraceptive...and in her mind she has predetermined that if she gets pregnant...no biggie...just go get an abortion.

NJ...you have a serious problem if you believe that is a norm.

 

[OKgrannie]

I could be wrong but I think ALOT of people blame there reason for getting an abortion on finincial problems and other things but 99% of the time thats bull. The truth is nobody is ready for kids. Most people who get abortions get them becuase having a kid would be too big of an inconvenience.

You're fussing about abortion because you don't think women have good enough reasons. Do you think ANY reason is good enough? If so, what is it? Frankly, it's not your business whether a woman's reasons meet your expectations. Because of the cost of abortion and the "inconvenience" of getting one, women just don't have them casually. There are surely other ways to motivate women to use birth control faithfully than criminalizing abortion.

 

[HonestJoe]

Ive rather become tired of all the arguments about abortion on these forums. Its the same arguments over and over and over etc.

Why did you repeat one then? Do you think your objection is in any way new and has never been addressed before?

This is what I want to stop with abortion. Is that so wrong?

So you want an entire ban on abortion because some people (you think the majority) abuse it?

Aren't there countless other things many people abuse that we don't ban? Guns, cars, the internet, medical drugs... the list is pretty much endless. Do you think all these things should be banned outright or do you think we should just maintain the laws, rules and structures designed to minimise the misuse that will inevitably happen?

 

[MaggieD]

Total nonsense...prove your claim that abortion is used as birth control...meaning each and every time a specific woman who believes that each time she has unprotected sex, or she fails to use a contraceptive...and in her mind she has predetermined that if she gets pregnant...no biggie...just go get an abortion.

NJ...you have a serious problem if you believe that is a norm.

Well, in reality, an overwhelming number of women elect to have abortions for birth control reasons. Yes?

I've known two women who used abortion as their primary birth control method. One, a young woman who had four abortions; another who had five. The last one I learned of on a Q&A site when she posted that information along with her question, "Will that fact make it harder for me to get pregnant?" Made me want to puke. Both of them.

 

[nathanjames1791]

Total nonsense...prove your claim that abortion is used as birth control...meaning each and every time a specific woman who believes that each time she has unprotected sex, or she fails to use a contraceptive...and in her mind she has predetermined that if she gets pregnant...no biggie...just go get an abortion.

NJ...you have a serious problem if you believe that is a norm.

Hey dont take my word for it here are the statistics.....

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Rape/incest = 1.5% of all abortions in the U.S.

Health problems-mother = 4% of all abortions

health problems-baby = 3% of all abortions

Cant afford baby now = 23% of all abortions

So there you have it all the reasonable reasons for having an abortion (if such a thing exists). Assuming all the people who said financial really couldnt afford a baby that still is only 31.5 % of all abortions.

Now heres the damning part

doesnt want people to know they were pregnant = .5%

would interfere with career = 4%

Has all the children they want = 19%

Partner wants an abortion = .5%

Parents want an abortion = .5%

single parent = 8%

Unready = 25%

Too immature to have a baby = 7%

That makes up a grand total of... 64.5% of all abortions

The final 4% was made up of others some of which were stupid, others were not and it didnt give a total break down of them so I couldnt include them still I think the evidence pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[nathanjames1791]

Why did you repeat one then? Do you think your objection is in any way new and has never been addressed before?

So you want an entire ban on abortion because some people (you think the majority) abuse it?

Aren't there countless other things many people abuse that we don't ban? Guns, cars, the internet, medical drugs... the list is pretty much endless. Do you think all these things should be banned outright or do you think we should just maintain the laws, rules and structures designed to minimise the misuse that will inevitably happen?

No this really isnt an argument that has surfaced and I dont know why. The arguments go like "is it human or is it just a pile of cells", "or prolifers want to push people into poverty" or "prochoicers hate babies" and stupid stuff like that. I think its important that someone actually point out the reason why prolifers are so against abortion, which is rarely brought up.

 

[nathanjames1791]

You're fussing about abortion because you don't think women have good enough reasons. Do you think ANY reason is good enough? If so, what is it? Frankly, it's not your business whether a woman's reasons meet your expectations. Because of the cost of abortion and the "inconvenience" of getting one, women just don't have them casually. There are surely other ways to motivate women to use birth control faithfully than criminalizing abortion.

Thats totally false. Plenty of women do have them casually, of course only woman who have lots of money, but you dont have to be doing it constantly for it to be a form of birth control for you. Face it people arent nearly as scared about getting pregnant with abortions around. If they have sex and get pregnant its not nearly as big a deal as it would be if abortion were not around. Believe me if abortion went away birth control sales and condom sales would go through the freaking roof.

 

[joko104]

So what you're really saying is that the law should require all women to contact you before any major decision she makes so you can decide if what she wants to do meets your religious stands. That's what it comes down to.

Since the Catholic religion claims that men have dominance over women by God's decree, you're just following your religion declaring that you are fundamentally superior to women in the role of authority over them.

 

[joko104]

The failure rate for birth control is as high as 16%. The OP'ers Catholic church's way, "rhythm," as a failure rate of a whooping 25%.

So understand the OPer. He has NO problem with women becoming pregnant against her wishes. RATHER, his view is that the woman should be FORCED to have the child because she wasn't raped. His view, therefore, is straight-up Catholic doctrine. WOMEN EXIST PRIMARILY TO POPULATE THE WORLD AND GROW THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS - whether she wants to have children or not.

CATHOLICS Bishops (and the Catholic OPer), declare that 9 months of labor, pregnancy, possibly death or being permanently crippled by it, and then a lifetime of raising a child she did not want and deliberated tried to avoid is just a price women have to pay for being women - because women are the cause of all sin in the world (Eve in the Garden tempting Adam). Thus, the Catholic Church and the OPer believe women should be forced to have children against her will - even knowing pregnancy and labor does (often) kill women. MILLIONS per year. But, then, those were JUST women.

In Catholic doctrine, noting the OP author is Catholic, the reason is because this is a punishment of women for being the cause of original sin.

The OPer is essentially declaring at the bottomline that most women who have abortions do so for evil, immoral reasons. While he acknowledges some do not by his own stats, IN HIS OPINION ALL WOMEN MUST SUFFER because of what the evil women do.

In short, the OPer favors collective punishment against women for her gender. It does come down to that.

Again, that is Catholic doctrine. Because some women are evil and do evil, THEREFORE both the OP and Catholic church declare ALL WOMEN must be punished and ALL WOMEN must be controlled by men. The OPer, of course, is a man.

 

[nathanjames1791]

So what you're really saying is that the law should require all women to contact you before any major decision she makes so you can decide if what she wants to do meets your religious stands. That's what it comes down to.

Since the Catholic religion claims that men have dominance over women by God's decree, you're just following your religion declaring that you are fundamentally superior to women in the role of authority over them.

No I dont as the name of the thread should indicate I want abortion illegal. Nor do I claim to be superior to woman nor does the catholic religion claim that any more than any christian religion does. This isnt about man and woman or any of that so dont try and steer the conversation. My point is that prochoicers want to make the discussion about abortion about rape victims and financial problems and all that and as the stastics show that is not the main reason for getting an abortion.

 

[nathanjames1791]

The failure rate for birth control is as high as 16%.

CATHOLICS Bishops (and the Catholic OPer), declare that 9 months of labor, pregnancy, possibly death or being permanently crippled by it, and then a lifetime of raising a child she did not want and deliberated tried to avoid is just a price women have to pay for being women.

In Catholic doctrine, noting the OP is Catholic, the reason is because this is a punishment of women for being the cause of original sin.

The OPer is essentially declaring at the bottomline hat most women who have abortions do so for evil, immoral reasons. While some do not by his own stats. IN HIS OPINION ALL WOMEN MUST SUFFER because of what the evil women do. Again, that is Catholic doctrine. Because some women are evil and do evil, THEREFORE both the OP and Catholic church declare ALL WOMEN must be punished and ALL WOMEN must be controlled by men. The OPer, of course, is a man.

No its NOT about the price of being a woman!!! This is NOT about being man or woman. Its the price for having sex and not just having sex but having it irresponsibly and stupidly. Also the man is just as responsible for the baby as the woman. Without the man there is no baby so he has as much responsiblity to care and support it as she does.

Despite what you might think Joko pregnancy is NOT an illness. It is not a disease. It is not a punishment. It should be a joy to have a child!!! Why do all you pro-choicers want to turn pregnancy into something horrible and disgusting that no one wants to be a part of?

 

[MaggieD]

The failure rate for birth control is as high as 16%. The OP'ers Catholic church's way, "rhythm," as a failure rate of a whooping 25%.

So understand the OPer. He has NO problem with women becoming pregnant against her wishes. RATHER, his view is that the woman should be FORCED to have the child because she wasn't raped. His view, therefore, is straight-up Catholic doctrine. WOMEN EXIST PRIMARILY TO POPULATE THE WORLD AND GROW THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS - whether she wants to have children or not.

CATHOLICS Bishops (and the Catholic OPer), declare that 9 months of labor, pregnancy, possibly death or being permanently crippled by it, and then a lifetime of raising a child she did not want and deliberated tried to avoid is just a price women have to pay for being women - because women are the cause of all sin in the world (Eve in the Garden tempting Adam). Thus, the Catholic Church and the OPer believe women should be forced to have children against her will - even knowing pregnancy and labor does (often) kill women. MILLIONS per year. But, then, those were JUST women.

In Catholic doctrine, noting the OP is Catholic, the reason is because this is a punishment of women for being the cause of original sin.

The OPer is essentially declaring at the bottomline hat most women who have abortions do so for evil, immoral reasons. While some do not by his own stats. IN HIS OPINION ALL WOMEN MUST SUFFER because of what the evil women do. Again, that is Catholic doctrine. Because some women are evil and do evil, THEREFORE both the OP and Catholic church declare ALL WOMEN must be punished and ALL WOMEN must be controlled by men. The OPer, of course, is a man.

I don't blame anybody who has a problem with women using abortion as a form of birth control...Catholic or not.

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

No I dont as the name of the thread should indicate I want abortion illegal. Nor do I claim to be superior to woman nor does the catholic religion claim that any more than any christian religion does. This isnt about man and woman or any of that so dont try and steer the conversation. My point is that prochoicers want to make the discussion about abortion about rape victims and financial problems and all that and as the stastics show that is not the main reason for getting an abortion.

Um perhaps you didnt understand what Pro choice means?

 

[nathanjames1791]

Um perhaps you didnt understand what Pro choice means?

I dont get your point. If you are saying prochoice is a womans movement thing then yes I suppose in part it is. However prochoicers love to throw the man out of the picture yet they often accuse prolifers of doing that. Men are as responsible for the baby as woman are and I will stand by that.

 

[tecoyah]

No its NOT about the price of being a woman!!! This is NOT about being man or woman. Its the price for having sex and not just having sex but having it irresponsibly and stupidly. Also the man is just as responsible for the baby as the woman. Without the man there is no baby so he has as much responsiblity to care and support it as she does.

Despite what you might think Joko pregnancy is NOT an illness. It is not a disease. It is not a punishment. It should be a joy to have a child!!! Why do all you pro-choicers want to turn pregnancy into something horrible and disgusting that no one wants to be a part of?

Firstly, what makes you think it's okay to tell ANYONE else what to do with their own bodies....whether that is how they have sex, when they have children, or any other aspect of a very personal part of life?

Secondly, "ALL pro-choicers" do not want to turn pregnancy into something horrible...likely few if any would lack the intellect to think this way...and I have never seen ANYONE claim it disgusting and decide to have no part of it.

By attempting to dehumanize your opponents, you actually come off as a somewhat unstable and unpleasant individual, who has lost a debate.

 

[Removable Mind]

Hey dont take my word for it here are the statistics.....

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

Rape/incest = 1.5% of all abortions in the U.S.

Health problems-mother = 4% of all abortions

health problems-baby = 3% of all abortions

Cant afford baby now = 23% of all abortions

So there you have it all the reasonable reasons for having an abortion (if such a thing exists). Assuming all the people who said financial really couldnt afford a baby that still is only 31.5 % of all abortions.

Now heres the damning part

doesnt want people to know they were pregnant = .5%

would interfere with career = 4%

Has all the children they want = 19%

Partner wants an abortion = .5%

Parents want an abortion = .5%

single parent = 8%

Unready = 25%

Too immature to have a baby = 7%

That makes up a grand total of... 64.5% of all abortions

The final 4% was made up of others some of which were stupid, others were not and it didnt give a total break down of them so I couldnt include them still I think the evidence pretty much speaks for itself.

Sorry NJ...but please...not Wm. Robert Johnston as a source. His credentials just are puzzling to me...and besides he's a very strong advocate against abortion. In other words...his stuff is so incredibly biased.

 

[nathanjames1791]

Firstly, what makes you think it's okay to tell ANYONE else what to do with their own bodies....whether that is how they have sex, when they have children, or any other aspect of a very personal part of life?

Secondly, "ALL pro-choicers" do not want to turn pregnancy into something horrible...likely few if any would lack the intellect to think this way...and I have never seen ANYONE claim it disgusting and decide to have no part of it.

By attempting to dehumanize your opponents, you actually come off as a somewhat unstable and unpleasant individual, who has lost a debate.

Curse you Joko!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another thread secessfully derailed..... Can we get back on topic. Go back this thread is not about me saying how woman should have sex or when they should have babies or womans rights or the catholic religion or any other bull that has come up over the last few posts.

Also the part about pregnancy being horrible was targeted at Joko who called it "punishment" several times which last time I checked is very negative.

 

[MaggieD]

Firstly, what makes you think it's okay to tell ANYONE else what to do with their own bodies....whether that is how they have sex, when they have children, or any other aspect of a very personal part of life?

Secondly, "ALL pro-choicers" do not want to turn pregnancy into something horrible...likely few if any would lack the intellect to think this way...and I have never seen ANYONE claim it disgusting and decide to have no part of it.

By attempting to dehumanize your opponents, you actually come off as a somewhat unstable and unpleasant individual, who has lost a debate.

Thanks to endless debate on this topic on DP, I've come around from ProLife to ProChoice...although I'd like to see a 3-4 month limit.

However, how can anyone not see the other side of it? And why is this poster unstable and unpleasant? That's not debate. That's ad homs.

 

[Removable Mind]

I don't blame anybody who has a problem with women using abortion as a form of birth control...Catholic or not.

Maggie...these gals you exampled are truly an exception to the rule. You know that's not the norm. It is sick and twisted that would would haphazardly have sex...get pregnant...and simply run down to get an abortion when clearly there are so many other options available. Their just genuinely ****ed up...

 

[nathanjames1791]

Sorry NJ...but please...not Wm. Robert Johnston as a source. His credentials just are puzzling to me...and besides he's a very strong advocate against abortion. In other words...his stuff is so incredibly biased.

Check out the site its not his data he just posted it on his site. I forget exactly the source. Regardless look it up else where. I have seen data simaler to this all over the place the truth is rape and financial and all those other things make up only a small part of abortion.

 

[nathanjames1791]

Ok the data on robertjohnston is from AGI which I have no idea their creditials but I look it up...

 

[joko104]

Check out the site its not his data he just posted it on his site. I forget exactly the source. Regardless look it up else where. I have seen data simaler to this all over the place the truth is rape and financial and all those other things make up only a small part of abortion.

I suppose the only answer you can give to the CATHOLIC method of birth control has a TWENTY FIVE PERCENT (25%) FAILURE RATE is to ignore it.

So why don't you address what you just step around in your OP? Explain why YOU BELIEVE women MUST have children against her wishes?

Since you assert abortion is evil as a presumption, your OP doesn't add anything new on that front. Rather, the REAL topic is you, as a man, believe women must have children against her wishes. Then - your logic - is that since most unwanted pregnancies weren't by violent rape, you believe ALL WOMEN should have children she does not want and even tried by contraceptives and birth control not to have.

Explain why you believe women MUST have children against their wishes. You may quote Bible if you want - as that is where it comes from.