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why I loathe Isreal

Sure, and if Israel does bad things I won't support those actions. But when looking at the total sum of everything that has happened, I can understand the measures Israel has taken to protect itself. In fact, when one considers what they have faced, Israel has shown considerable restraint. Their enemies do not. That makes my support for Israel even stronger.
They've settled in territory against every International Law in the book. Those settlements are littered like sun spots all across the Palestinian landscape. Their building a Berlin-type wall that is preventing Palestinian land owners from access to their own property. What other country has borders such as these? And why is that a "measure" Israel MUST take?
 
They've settled in territory against every International Law in the book. Those settlements are littered like sun spots all across the Palestinian landscape. Their building a Berlin-type wall that is preventing Palestinian land owners from access to their own property. What other country has borders such as these? And why is that a "measure" Israel MUST take?

What other measure can they take? Its been shown ad nauseum by other posters with more knowledge of UN resolutions, historical battles, and past negotiations that the Israeli front is the only party interested in a two state solution. The Palestinian people elected into government a terrorist organization that vows the destruction of Israel in its charter for criss-sake. The fact there is even a Palestinian government around after that election speaks volumes about Israels restraint. The fact that the Israelis have tried time and time again to reliquish territories, only to have it thrown back in their face. They have tried to make things work, it is the otherside that is unrelenting in its desire to end occupation of arab lands. The problem is that they see Israel as arab land. Something often overlooked by many people here.
 
What other measure can they take? Its been shown ad nauseum by other posters with more knowledge of UN resolutions, historical battles, and past negotiations that the Israeli front is the only party interested in a two state solution. The Palestinian people elected into government a terrorist organization that vows the destruction of Israel in its charter for criss-sake. The fact there is even a Palestinian government around after that election speaks volumes about Israels restraint. The fact that the Israelis have tried time and time again to reliquish territories, only to have it thrown back in their face. They have tried to make things work, it is the otherside that is unrelenting in its desire to end occupation of arab lands. The problem is that they see Israel as arab land. Something often overlooked by many people here.
I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the sched, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is more at fault in on this issue. Israel is "legally speaking", the "occupier". I recently started a thread regarding all the UN resolutions they are in violation of. There are so many that it is ridiculous to put all the blame on the Palestinian's. And you didn't answer my question regarding what other country has borders like these?
 
I admit I'm not the sharpest tool in the sched, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who is more at fault in on this issue. Israel is "legally speaking", the "occupier". I recently started a thread regarding all the UN resolutions they are in violation of. There are so many that it is ridiculous to put all the blame on the Palestinian's. And you didn't answer my question regarding what other country has borders like these?

There is something used in the insurance business when determining liability. Its a phrase called proximate cause. And proximate cause goes back as far as it can to determine what caused the events to lead up to the current situation. If we take the current situation with Israel and its neighbors we can determine that once the UN resolution calling for the establishment of the Israeli state was voted on and in place, the cause for Israels actions thus far have been determined for them by the aggressors that had no respect for the borders that were put into place by the international laws you cling to. And no concession seems to be forth coming from certain disputed territories that they would indeed be willing to respect those borders. The countries that have shown they were willing to respect the Israeli borders have had territories returned to them in an acceptable fashion, yes?
What other country has a need for borders like these?
 
There is something used in the insurance business when determining liability. Its a phrase called proximate cause. And proximate cause goes back as far as it can to determine what caused the events to lead up to the current situation. If we take the current situation with Israel and its neighbors we can determine that once the UN resolution calling for the establishment of the Israeli state was voted on and in place, the cause for Israels actions thus far have been determined for them by the aggressors that had no respect for the borders that were put into place by the international laws you cling to. And no concession seems to be forth coming from certain disputed territories that they would indeed be willing to respect those borders. The countries that have shown they were willing to respect the Israeli borders have had territories returned to them in an acceptable fashion, yes?
What other country has a need for borders like these?
The state of Israel is there to stay. They have a right to stay and be safe within their borders. They DO NOT have a right to settle in land siezed in a war or change the demographics of that area. There is only one way to solve the problem of "occupation", that is to end said occupation.

Do you refuse to see the havoc those littered sun spots (settlements) are wreaking on the Palestinian way of life?
 
The state of Israel is there to stay. They have a right to stay and be safe within their borders. They DO NOT have a right to settle in land siezed in a war or change the demographics of that area. There is only one way to solve the problem of "occupation", that is to end said occupation.

Do you refuse to see the havoc those littered sun spots (settlements) are wreaking on the Palestinian way of life?

There is somebody ruining the way of life for Palestinians, and its not the Israelis. Its fellow arabs billo, why can't you see that?

For chriss-sake Billo, somehow Hamas has the funds for rockets, but it can't afford to feed its own people? They have to break into Egypt when Israel cuts off the supplies? Seems someone is propping up the Palestinians, and it isn't their fellow arab states.

The way to end the occupation is to agree and adhere to a peace treaty that recognizes agreed upon borders by both sides. Ending the occupation, as the political climate currently stands in Palestine, is not a feasible plan for Israel as they have no guarentees from Palestinian government(See the Hamas charter) that Israeli borders would be respected.
 
They DO NOT have a right to settle in land siezed in a war or change the demographics of that area...

In this case, the West Bank remains disputed territory and UN decisions, many of which have been badly biased e.g., the UNHRC's condemnation of Israel's most recent efforts at self-defense, are not the best measures by which Israel should be judged. If anything, the UN has repeatedly attempted to deprive Israel of the rights enjoyed by the UN's other member states and, in the larger scheme of things on account of its bias, has been a part of the problem that precludes Middle East peace rather than an agent for peace.

Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 war after Jordan attacked Israel. Jordan was the aggressor. Does this mean that Jordan was the rightful "owner" of the West Bank? No.

Jordan captured the West Bank during the 1948 war launched immediately by the Arab states after Israel was re-established. This was an offensive conquest. In 1950, Jordan annexed that land. The January 2, 1950 edition of The New York Times reported, "King Abdullah has made Jordan-occupied Palestine a part of his Hashemite Kingdom..." The UN adopted no resolutions whatsoever to call upon Jordan to relinquish this captured territory. In short, the UN established a precedent whereby its inconsistent standard--Jordan was permitted to annex territory it captured after initiating a war, while Israel is expected to give up land it captured only after it had been attacked--undermines the credibility of its stance regarding Israel.

In December 1950, Jordan declared East Jerusalem, which it captured in 1948, "an Arab city" and "an integral part of an Arab kingdom." The UN adopted no resolutions of any kind to reject Jordan's claim to East Jerusalem. Again, the UN only reacted when Israel captured and annexed East Jerusalem, even as Israel created open access to the holy sites, something Jordan had denied to Jewish people. Again, this double standard speaks for itself and the UN's earlier precedent undermines the credibility of its criticism of Israel.

In the end, it will be the negotiating process that determines the permanent boundaries of Israel and the West Bank, as well as the status of East Jerusalem. With regard to the West Bank, Israel has repeatedly demonstrated that it will grant the Palestinians most of that area in a settlement. In fact, Prime Minister Barak accepted President Clinton's bridging proposal that would have given the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank. Something along the lines of 90% +/- a few percentage points is probably still feasible. However, if the Palestinians fail to commit themselves to seeking peace and do not come to the table with the necessary flexibility to allow for compromise, this figure could change.

In any case, it should be noted that Israel has established precedent for removing settlements when it withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula. Based on that precedent, the areas that are given to the Palestinians would also see the settlements removed.
 


On the contrary, I believe Israel's role as a strategic ally was even more important than it might seem for at least three reasons.

First, because the relationship had grown so visible, it became a barometer of American reliability. If the U.S. were to abandon Israel, other U.S. allies might have discounted American reliability with respect to their bilateral relationship with the U.S. This might have tempted them to seek their own accommodation with the Soviet Union as "insurance" against a lack of American reliability. In turn, the Soviet Union might well have exploited the opening to seek such accommodations so as to undermine the foundations of NATO and other American relationships.

Second, the Soviets supported Arab radicals and revolutionary movements. This put pressure on moderates within the Arab world. Had the U.S. abandoned Israel, Arab moderates might well have grown demoralized as there would be no reliable counterweight to Soviet influence in the region. As a result, Arab radicalism might well have spread throughout the region and relatively moderate governments in Jordan and Saudi Arabia might have been toppled.

Third, if the U.S. were to abandon Israel, that would not have assured better relations with Egypt under President Nasser, etc. Such governments were dabbling with anti-Western policies and American disengagement from the scene, especially if Israel fell, could well have led to triumphs that locked in those anti-Western policies. Under such a scenario, the Middle East would be a far worse place than it is today with regard to American interests. A Soviet sphere of influence might well have given the Soviets a lock on that region's oil resources and one can imagine the economic consequences, particularly for Europe and Japan if the region's oil sales were harmonized with Soviet interests. The Soviets would have gained a powerful tool with which to pry Western Europe and Japan away from the U.S.

Keeping in mind the above considerations, when it came to the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the U.S. airlift of arms to Isarel to counter the Soviets' assistance to Egypt and Syria made powerful sense. If the Soviets position were to have been enhanced by an Arab victory on account of their assistance to the Arab states, that would have had vast repercussions well beyond the Middle East. If, on the other hand, Israel prevailed with American assistance, the U.S. position would be strengthened vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. In his memoirs, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger highlighted the dangers and opportunities involved with the U.S. choice concerning assistance to Israel. He wrote:

If the Arabs won with Soviet support, Moscow would emerge as the dominant power; the radical course—the military option—would appear vindicated, and moderate Arabs would be in an even weaker position. Then the United States would lose influence no matter how restrained we had been during the war. If our arms aid blocked an Arab victory, then our central role would be confirmed.

Cold calculations of national interest--as much as affinity based on shared values--made it possible for the U.S. and Israel to forge an intense and lasting relationship.

Today, that relationship is just as vital. In the face of Islamic fundamentalism, Israel is a dependable strategic ally. Israel has intimate familiarity with the region's actors. Its assessments add depth to American understanding of that area, and improved understanding mitigates risks associated with uncertainty. Its strength helps deter the spread of such fundamentalism. Its example, even as many Arabs criticize it, demonstrates the power of a free society in terms of producing improved living standards and wellbeing. Its economic model shows states such as Jordan who lack oil wealth, that they too can become relatively affluent if the liberalize their economies. A gradual economic liberalization is underway in the region, and even if they won't mention it, Israel's ability to create a modern and prosperous economy has not gone unnoticed by its neighbors. Down the road, if economic liberalization can begin to give rise to an Arab middle class, that development might well offer another underpinning for a trend toward moderation, as volatile and radical policies tend to suppress economic growth and wealth creation.​

You're falling into the classic trape of the Cold War, namely the logic that we have to support group A, because Group B (Group A's mortal enemy) is a Soviet client.

Imagine a world without the US-Israeli alliance. Would the Arab powers be so inclined towards the Soviets? Perhaps, they were afterall recovering from colonization from Western powers that were now allied with the US through NATO, probably predisposing them towards anti-Western sentiments. However, I see no real assurance of that. Even with our support of Israel we maintained an alliance with Saudi Arabia and Iran until 1979.

Is it so hard to imagine that our unquestioning support of a foreign occupying body in their region perhaps sent the Arabs to the Soviets?

The Soviets on the otherhand, maintained client status with Iraq and Syria. Who would you rather have on your side, Saudi Arabia and Iran, the two largest oil producers in the Middle East, or Iraq and Syria? Iraq has moderate oil production (although great compared to any Western power) and Syria is just about completely worthless.

If the US hadn't taken so strongly a pro-Israeli stance- and by default, at least in the minds of the Arabs, an anti-Arab stance, it would have done much to repair the distance between the Middle East and the West.

And, finally, if the US had been more balanced, do you think it would have really affected Israel's stance towards the NATO powers particularly? Would fairer treatment have sent Israel into the arms of the Eastern Bloc? No, the idea is laughable. Many Israeli's are either American expatriates or have family in America. The wounds inflicted upon the Jewish people by the Slavic people are deep. There is no way that Israel would have been anything but freindly towards the West.
 
Soviets? The USSR imploded in 1989. This is 2008.
 
His point was that our alliance with Israel was useful for the purposes of the Cold War. We're debating it.

But yes, even if Israel was useful durring the Cold War, that war is over.
 


In this case, the West Bank remains disputed territory and UN decisions, many of which have been badly biased e.g., the UNHRC's condemnation of Israel's most recent efforts at self-defense, are not the best measures by which Israel should be judged. If anything, the UN has repeatedly attempted to deprive Israel of the rights enjoyed by the UN's other member states and, in the larger scheme of things on account of its bias, has been a part of the problem that precludes Middle East peace rather than an agent for peace.

Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 war after Jordan attacked Israel. Jordan was the aggressor. Does this mean that Jordan was the rightful "owner" of the West Bank? No.

Jordan captured the West Bank during the 1948 war launched immediately by the Arab states after Israel was re-established. This was an offensive conquest. In 1950, Jordan annexed that land. The January 2, 1950 edition of The New York Times reported, "King Abdullah has made Jordan-occupied Palestine a part of his Hashemite Kingdom..." The UN adopted no resolutions whatsoever to call upon Jordan to relinquish this captured territory. In short, the UN established a precedent whereby its inconsistent standard--Jordan was permitted to annex territory it captured after initiating a war, while Israel is expected to give up land it captured only after it had been attacked--undermines the credibility of its stance regarding Israel.

In December 1950, Jordan declared East Jerusalem, which it captured in 1948, "an Arab city" and "an integral part of an Arab kingdom." The UN adopted no resolutions of any kind to reject Jordan's claim to East Jerusalem. Again, the UN only reacted when Israel captured and annexed East Jerusalem, even as Israel created open access to the holy sites, something Jordan had denied to Jewish people. Again, this double standard speaks for itself and the UN's earlier precedent undermines the credibility of its criticism of Israel.

In the end, it will be the negotiating process that determines the permanent boundaries of Israel and the West Bank, as well as the status of East Jerusalem. With regard to the West Bank, Israel has repeatedly demonstrated that it will grant the Palestinians most of that area in a settlement. In fact, Prime Minister Barak accepted President Clinton's bridging proposal that would have given the Palestinians 97% of the West Bank. Something along the lines of 90% +/- a few percentage points is probably still feasible. However, if the Palestinians fail to commit themselves to seeking peace and do not come to the table with the necessary flexibility to allow for compromise, this figure could change.

In any case, it should be noted that Israel has established precedent for removing settlements when it withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula. Based on that precedent, the areas that are given to the Palestinians would also see the settlements removed.
You cannot settle in land seized in a war. How much more basic does it have to be? According to UN resolution 446, Israel has no legal claim to that land. And the havoc that is causing the Palestinian people is beyond barbaric. What other country on earth that has borders that are like sun spots on someone else's land?
 
You cannot settle in land seized in a war. How much more basic does it have to be? According to UN resolution 446, Israel has no legal claim to that land. And the havoc that is causing the Palestinian people is beyond barbaric. What other country on earth that has borders that are like sun spots on someone else's land?
Under the auspices of US stewardship, Israel and the PA are currently engaged in discussions/negotiations on their fundamental core issue differences.

I am at a loss to put forth a better way to arrive at a comprehensive settlement agreement other than what is now occuring. There exists no other better way. What must be done is now being done.
 
You cannot settle in land seized in a war. How much more basic does it have to be? According to UN resolution 446, Israel has no legal claim to that land. And the havoc that is causing the Palestinian people is beyond barbaric. What other country on earth that has borders that are like sun spots on someone else's land?

Supposedly you aren't allowed to fire rockets at non-military targets either.
 
Under the auspices of US stewardship, Israel and the PA are currently engaged in discussions/negotiations on their fundamental core issue differences.

I am at a loss to put forth a better way to arrive at a comprehensive settlement agreement other than what is now occuring. There exists no other better way. What must be done is now being done.
You are absolutely right and I applaud Israel for their willingness to discuss fundamental issues that would bring peace to this region. One cannot say enough about this fact.
 
I'll see your resolution 446 and raise you the Royal Flush Resolution 181.

When the arab muslims nations and people decide to abide by UN Resolution 181, then come and chat about who's following or not following UN Resolutions.
 
How many times do I have to say I am against those rocket attacks?

I know you are against them, but you offer no viable solutions to stop them.

Do you honestly think that should Israel withdraw behind the borders, that the attacks would actually cease? If yes, there is nothing I can tell you that will ever change your mind. If no, continue to question number 2.

Should Israel withdraw to the "appropriate" border and the rocket/terrorist attacks continue, do you actually believe anything more than a letter of condemnation will come from the UN? The very organization that granted Israel the right to exist, but is glaringly absent when Israels right to exist has been overtly threatened.
 
Billo_Really,

I'm well aware of the provisions of UNSC Res. 446. Had the UN demonstrated balance in its earlier intervention in the Middle East crisis, its voice would be more credible on that matter. In fact, had it assumed its reponsibilities and commitments following the 1956 War, there might well have been no 1967 war.

The concrete reality is that it will take negotiations to establish a permanent status for the disputed territories. The 1949 armistice agreements that set the demarcation lines that preceded the 1967 war were not a final settlement. Those lines were not intended to be permanent boundaries. For the UN Security Council to assert that Israel has no claim to land that was supposed to have been the subject of negotiations is simply a revision of the UN's original intent. That further undermines the UN's credibility on the issue.

In the end, a negotiating process is the preferable way to achieve a final settlement. In the absence of a negotiated settlement, the dispute will persist. Shrill UN pronouncements that are entirely unbalanced will not be helpful. In fact, they will only embolden the rejectionists in the hope that they can wear down Israel over time and this will impede progress along the diplomatic path.​
 
In this case, the West Bank remains disputed territory and UN decisions

The west bank is PALESTINIAN land. So is all of Israel. Israel is the disputed territory. I am sick of this zionist crap. They stole palestine, established jewish state on land that's not theirs... When 96% of historical palestinian land returns to it's owners, who hold the land deeds to it, these zionist criminals might be spared a chance to live in our country.
 
I'd like to point out that I don't care "who's land it is", because I think that as an American it's hypocritical to draw some artificial line in time as to when it's acceptable to condone invading and conquering a people. The whole US is "Native American land".

Yeah, invade, conquer, whatever. But...you're not entitled to do it with American money.

Particularly when it does nothing but bring America fuel shortages and terrorism.
 
The west bank is PALESTINIAN land. So is all of Israel. Israel is the disputed territory. I am sick of this zionist crap. They stole palestine, established jewish state on land that's not theirs... When 96% of historical palestinian land returns to it's owners, who hold the land deeds to it, these zionist criminals might be spared a chance to live in our country.

Again, the 1949 Armistice agreements say otherwise. The demarcation lines were for purposes of separating the military forces, only. They were not permanent boundaries. They were not intended to prejudice the claims of either side.

Moreover, Israel's re-establishment was wholly legitimate. The Jewish people have every bit as much historical legitimacy in the region as the Arabs do. Archaeological, historical, and DNA evidence all prove this. The partition plan properly recognized the shared legitimacy and sought to accommodate the core needs of both peoples. Unfortunately, the Arab leadership chose implacability in its quest for fulfillment of its maximum demands. Later, when Israel was re-established, the Arabs resorted to naked aggression in a bid to conquer the infant state. The Arabs were defeated. Later Arab aggression in 1956, 1967, and 1973 produced more losses for the Arab side. The great tragedy is that this pursuit of the maximum Arab agenda caused great harm to the Arab people and all of this harm was wholly avoidable.

In the end, if the Palestinian side is willing to negotiate in good faith and compromise so as to accommodate Israel's core needs, the Palestinians will gain most of the West Bank. On the other hand, illusions of Arab control over the entire region, a rejectionist negotiating posture, and resort to terrorism will lead absolutely nowhere for the Palestinians. Under such circumstances, there will be no sovereign Palestinian state.​
 
if the Palestinian side is willing to negotiate in good faith

Good faith? Are you actually writing this with a straight face? Should we have negotiated in good faith with bengurion the ethnic cleanser? Begin the facist? Sharon the butcher? Maybe nitenyahoo they americanized hypocrite? Every single time, you have out gunned us, outsmarted us and found a way to steal more land, expel more people. All these zionists know one thing. Grab more land, expel more people. Good faith negotiations with jabotinsky's student, mr. olmert of the kadima? OLMERT? He drops a thousand shells on Gaza, besieges them, murders civilians almost daily, then goes and kisses abu mazen and condi and acts like an angel. When a qassam happens to ruin the sleep of sderot (guess the name of the palestinian town that was destroyed to build that settlement), he kills more palestinians. **** this ****.... I have seen nothing from Israel except more scheming occupying theft.

Hey buddy.... the refugees will return to their homes and land whether you like it or not.
 
Good faith? Are you actually writing this with a straight face?

Of course. I have the weight of the region's history and understanding of diplomacy as some of my foundations.

Should we have negotiated in good faith with bengurion the ethnic cleanser? Begin the facist? Sharon the butcher? Maybe nitenyahoo they americanized hypocrite?

Name calling and invented charges of "ethnic cleansing" cannot change the region's history.

All these zionists know one thing. Grab more land, expel more people.

That theory was disproved by Israel's withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula under the March 1979 peace agreement. That theory was further shattered by the Israeli-Jordanian peace agreement of 1994.​
 
Hey buddy.... the refugees will return to their homes and land whether you like it or not.

No they won't. Until the Palestinians stop shooting themselves in the foot, continue to play the martyr game, and refuse to help their own people, instead fighting a ridiculous war they cannot win, and fighting the UN Partition Plan that will not change, they will remain impoverished and poor. One they accept the reality of the situation, and work towards peace and the formation of their own country, then they can begin to prosper.

The more that Palestinians complain about the Partition Plan and refuse to move forward, the more they will struggle.
 
That theory was disproved by Israel's withdrawal from the Sinai Peninsula under the March 1979 peace agreement. That theory was further shattered by the Israeli-Jordanian peace agreement of 1994.

We must expel Arabs and take their places - David Ben Gurion

there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands. - Ariel Sharon

Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them - Ariel Sharon

Why deny what the Israeli leaders openly admit?
 
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