Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[snakestretcher]

The Israeli study I linked to earlier is the latest attempt to measure how long and how good immunity is from infection and vaccines. Natural immunity seems to last much longer...with one jab on top comes a slight improvement. ..but I see no reason why anti body tests that show high levels are not as good as these vaccines given that 2jabs without previous infection is not as good as previous infection alone.

ONE study, like one swallow, doesn't make a summer. Hence the need for boosters:

Israeli study: COVID booster shots 92% effective at preventing serious illness

Research published in Lancet also finds 3rd shot 81% more effective in preventing deaths compared to those who've had only 2 shots at least 5 months ago

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[jaeger19]

Lol...maths is not your strong point ...try again... The clue is in the time frames ...there is only a slight increase in protection with a jab on top of previous infection...10 to 20%...and the protection from jabs is very short lived unlike from previous infection.

we have proven math is not your strong suit.
Sorry dude.. but no.

 

[jaeger19]

Luckily ,as proven by the good professor Fenton..the risks of death from all causes is no higher for the unvaxxed than the vaxxed...and being that he is one of the world's leading risk statistions I think we can assume his team has thought this through better than you...given your maths ability I can vouch for that lol...

In the UK 2/3 of all Covid cases in hospital are at least double jabbed ..that's another fact for you to consider ...

Actually as not proven. The constraints of the study.. many of which they brought forward.. were way to pronounced to conclude that risk of death is no higher for unvaccinated.
Plus.. like I said.. it could simply be that those that are higher risk anyway.. are the ones who get vaccinated.

 

[Big Eye]

ONE study, like one swallow, doesn't make a summer. Hence the need for boosters:

Israeli study: COVID booster shots 92% effective at preventing serious illness

Research published in Lancet also finds 3rd shot 81% more effective in preventing deaths compared to those who've had only 2 shots at least 5 months ago

www.timesofisrael.com

I don’t buy into the idea that the boosters reduce serious illness by a great deal…for one there is no excess all cause mortality amongst the unvaxxed ( in the U.K. at least), for two we have been lied to on a basically daily level about just how great these vaccines are ( originally they were great at stopping infections for instance and even the ONS put out misleading figures regarding their usefulness ), for three we have no idea how well they protect against this new moronic variant ….and for four , we have not had a winter test yet.

If after this winter there is a clear advantage for the triple jabbed I would actually admit it…the trouble is everything to this point indicates these vaccines really are not very good …the fact that we have already reached number 3 in a year is a bit of a clue.

 

[Big Eye]

we have proven math is not your strong suit.
Sorry dude.. but no.

If you can’t interpret the data properly …don’t spin that on me…I could just put the link back up again so that people will wonder how the **** you got it wrong…but I’m not vindictive unless you want me to be lol.

 

[Big Eye]

Actually as not proven. The constraints of the study.. many of which they brought forward.. were way to pronounced to conclude that risk of death is no higher for unvaccinated.
Plus.. like I said.. it could simply be that those that are higher risk anyway.. are the ones who get vaccinated.

In Professor Fenton’s statement regarding the statistics ( which were U.K. government and ONS numbers…both organisations who are guilty of “bigging up” this “pandemic”) he states that they tried to figure out any way that they could have misread the information …that is his actual speciality with statistics…making sure that they are not misinterpreted…his statistics are correct, just as you’d expect from one of the leading experts in risk management and statistics in the world .

In the U.K. there is no higher risk any cause mortality for the unvaxxed vs the vaxxed…people with an interest in science and reality should find that interesting …not a personal insult lol.

 

[Big Eye]

Here are the results from the Israeli study…you can see that infection rates for previously infected 4-6 months ago was 10.5 and for those that also had a jab 6 months ago as well as infection it rises to 11.6. I said that it meant there was a 10 to 20 % increase in protection after the same time span…ie, 6 months or so . If you are going to compare the infection rate after 2 months then you would need to know the natural immunity after two months ( rather than 4-6 months) to compare.

“RESULTS Confirmed infection rates increased according to time elapsed since the last immunity-conferring event in all cohorts. For unvaccinated previously infected individuals they increased from 10.5 per 100,000 risk-days for those previously infected 4-6 months ago to 30.2 for those previously infected over a year ago. For individuals receiving a single dose following prior infection they increased from 3.7 per 100,000 person days among those vaccinated in the past two months to 11.6 for those vaccinated over 6 months ago. For vaccinated previously uninfected individuals the rate per 100,000 person days increased from 21.1 for persons vaccinated within the first two months to 88.9 for those vaccinated more than 6 months ago.”

Protection and waning of natural and hybrid COVID-19 immunity

BACKGROUND Infection with SARS-CoV-2 provides substantial natural immunity against reinfection. Recent studies have shown strong waning of the immunity provided by the BNT162b2 vaccine. The time course of natural and hybrid immunity is unknown. METHODS Data on confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections...

www.medrxiv.org

 

[Ethel2]

In a sign of things to come the SCOTUS has declined to block a NY vaccine mandate:

“
(CNN)The Supreme Court turned away two emergency requests Monday from health care workers, doctors and nurses in New York to block the state's vaccine mandate.
Justices Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas dissented.
The dispute arose when three nurses and a group called We the Patriots USA, Inc, challenged the mandate, arguing that it allowed exemptions for those with medical objections but not for people with religious objections.”

 

[Ethel2]

Here are the results from the Israeli study…you can see that infection rates for previously infected 4-6 months ago was 10.5 and for those that also had a jab 6 months ago as well as infection it rises to 11.6. I said that it meant there was a 10 to 20 % increase in protection after the same time span…ie, 6 months or so . If you are going to compare the infection rate after 2 months then you would need to know the natural immunity after two months ( rather than 4-6 months) to compare.

“RESULTS Confirmed infection rates increased according to time elapsed since the last immunity-conferring event in all cohorts. For unvaccinated previously infected individuals they increased from 10.5 per 100,000 risk-days for those previously infected 4-6 months ago to 30.2 for those previously infected over a year ago. For individuals receiving a single dose following prior infection they increased from 3.7 per 100,000 person days among those vaccinated in the past two months to 11.6 for those vaccinated over 6 months ago. For vaccinated previously uninfected individuals the rate per 100,000 person days increased from 21.1 for persons vaccinated within the first two months to 88.9 for those vaccinated more than 6 months ago.”

Protection and waning of natural and hybrid COVID-19 immunity

BACKGROUND Infection with SARS-CoV-2 provides substantial natural immunity against reinfection. Recent studies have shown strong waning of the immunity provided by the BNT162b2 vaccine. The time course of natural and hybrid immunity is unknown. METHODS Data on confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infections...

www.medrxiv.org

Conclusion: get a booster shot

 

[jaeger19]

If you can’t interpret the data properly …don’t spin that on me…I could just put the link back up again so that people will wonder how the **** you got it wrong…but I’m not vindictive unless you want me to be lol.

I did interpret it correctly.. such as the data was in their conclusion.

RESULTS Confirmed infection rates increased according to time elapsed since the last immunity-conferring event in all cohorts. For unvaccinated previously infected individuals they increased from 10.5 per 100,000 risk-days for those previously infected 4-6 months ago to 30.2 for those previously infected over a year ago. For individuals receiving a single dose following prior infection they increased from 3.7 per 100,000 person days among those vaccinated in the past two months to 11.6 for those vaccinated over 6 months ago. For vaccinated previously uninfected individuals the rate per 100,000 person days increased from 21.1 for persons vaccinated within the first two months to 88.9 for those vaccinated more than 6 months ago.

Lets see.. 10.5 to 30
3.7 to 11.6

And you think thats a 10-20% difference? 30 vs 11.6?

I think you are getting hung up because you think the 11.6 months is only at 6 months.. but its for OVER 6 months.

But.. lets say that its a 10-20% improvement?

THEN FRIGGIN YEAH... GO GET YOUR VACCINATED AFTER INFECTION.!!! IT HELPS.

 

[jaeger19]

In Professor Fenton’s statement regarding the statistics ( which were U.K. government and ONS numbers…both organisations who are guilty of “bigging up” this “pandemic”) he states that they tried to figure out any way that they could have misread the information …that is his actual speciality with statistics…making sure that they are not misinterpreted…his statistics are correct, just as you’d expect from one of the leading experts in risk management and statistics in the world .

In the U.K. there is no higher risk any cause mortality for the unvaxxed vs the vaxxed…people with an interest in science and reality should find that interesting …not a personal insult lol.

And he actually brought forth many ways in which his conclusions could be erroneous.

**Potential limitations and errors in the ONS data (with thanks to Clare Craig for identifying some of these)

• Does not provide the raw age categorized data.
• The age standardized score used by ONS relies on the 2011 census data to determine the population proportions in each age category. These proportions have changed since 2011 and, as we noted in this article, these differences can significantly change the results.
• There are inconsistencies in vaccination numbers between the ONS data and the National Immunisation Management Service (NIMS) data. For example, by week 26 NIMS has 28.1 million people over 18 who have had second does, but ONS has only 23.3 million.
• The ONS total population is 16.6 million short of the whole population. Only 12.6 million are under 18 so the remaining 4 million are omitted for some other reason.
• The rates in the unvaccinated on 8th Jan are lower than the double vaccinated in summer. Also, on 8th January only 12% of over 65 year olds had been vaccinated, so the unvaccinated population should have had a death rate very similar to background levels.
• The wildly increasing weekly age adjusted mortality rates (for non-Covid related deaths) for the 38 million unvaccinated population in January are totally inconsistent with weekly changes in previous years. Although this population excludes the under 18s and the 1.2 million (mainly over 65s) who had by then recieved their first dose, we would not expect the mortality rate for this population to be drastically different to the mortality rate for England seen in recent years as reported in a different ONS report.
• Ultimately we need to exclude unnatual deaths such as murders, accidents and suicides since these may introduce bias between the cohorts, especially in the young age categories where the overall death numbers are small.

And I brought up a couple more.

https://www.normanfenton.com/post/c...n-england-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated

Even he mentions that its a crude analysis:

Because of the limitations and possible errors in the ONS data**, there are many caveats that need to be applied to our crude analysis

But nice try dude.

 

[wellwisher]

Before there was any vaccine, it was already clear who were the main targets of the virus. It was the elderly, the obese and those with compromised respiratory systems. It did not target children, with children far more likely to die from the flu or in car accidents. What sense does it make to vaccinate everyone, when there are a limited number of targets?

The analogy for the current mandate would be like not noticing that only women get pregnant; specific targets, therefore we will t require both men and women go to gynecologists. Some people will follow the rules. Other will follow out of fear of the unknown. Neither will think too deep.

Modern medicine does not know how to advance beyond the current one size fits all approach. This is because the statistical modeling that medicine uses; risk analysis, is the same math used in gambling casinos. Everyone needs to get into casino mode and assume anyone can win the negative jackpot, due to finite odds; one size of fear fits all.

If Trump had not been so effective at fast tracking the vaccines, and the vaccine had been developed by the traditional slow boat way of the bureaucracy; 5 year plan, targeting limited resources would have made the vulnerable more clear. But since we have vaccines the targets are lost again. If 100% got the vaccine, experts could contribute all the health benefits to the vaccine including, those who never needed the vaccine; medical illusion for political fun and corporate profit. It would appear that one size does indeed fit all even though an illusion.

 

[snakestretcher]

We must stop ignoring natural immunity - it’s now long overdue!

www.bmj.com

Tell us all about Sweden's experiment with herd immunity and natural immunity, and what a stunning success it was.

 

[Big Eye]

Tell us all about Sweden's experiment with herd immunity and natural immunity, and what a stunning success it was.

Their infection rate is far lower than elsewhere in Europe...and their death rate is a lot lower than Scotland's ...and up to this point they have not given up basic human rights...though that is changing due to outside pressure no doubt.

 

[Big Eye]

Conclusion: get a booster shot

I think that many getting these boosters will regret their decision . The latest variety of Covid looks to be a bit of s ***** cat too...do I'll let the bed wetters get boosted ...I'll stand by , don't want to stop the fearful ones getting their regular dose of spike proteins lol...

 

[Big Eye]

And he actually brought forth many ways in which his conclusions could be erroneous.


And I brought up a couple more.

https://www.normanfenton.com/post/c...n-england-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated

Even he mentions that its a crude analysis:



But nice try dude.

The ONS Dara almost certainly overplays the effectiveness of the vaccines ...by counting non vaxxed deaths in the big wave before the Vax rolled out and including them in the overall numbers from Jan to July...that's what he is indicating, the numbers are suspect in a way that makes the vaccines look better...plus dying with rather than of...all that bullshit.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I think that many getting these boosters will regret their decision . The latest variety of Covid looks to be a bit of s ***** cat too...do I'll let the bed wetters get boosted ...I'll stand by , don't want to stop the fearful ones getting their regular dose of spike proteins lol...

Why would I regret it? I've got 3 covid vaccines, and so does virtually every person I know, and I've never seen or heard from anybody having even the slightest negative effect from them.

I do however have friends and family who were unvaccinated and died from covid. You don't have to trust any news or studies to recognize YOU PERSONALLY don't know anybody who's suffered from getting the vaccine.

Before there was any vaccine, it was already clear who were the main targets of the virus. It was the elderly, the obese and those with compromised respiratory systems. It did not target children, with children far more likely to die from the flu or in car accidents. What sense does it make to vaccinate everyone, when there are a limited number of targets?

The analogy for the current mandate would be like not noticing that only women get pregnant; specific targets, therefore we will t require both men and women go to gynecologists. Some people will follow the rules. Other will follow out of fear of the unknown. Neither will think too deep.

Modern medicine does not know how to advance beyond the current one size fits all approach. This is because the statistical modeling that medicine uses; risk analysis, is the same math used in gambling casinos. Everyone needs to get into casino mode and assume anyone can win the negative jackpot, due to finite odds; one size of fear fits all.

If Trump had not been so effective at fast tracking the vaccines, and the vaccine had been developed by the traditional slow boat way of the bureaucracy; 5 year plan, targeting limited resources would have made the vulnerable more clear. But since we have vaccines the targets are lost again. If 100% got the vaccine, experts could contribute all the health benefits to the vaccine including, those who never needed the vaccine; medical illusion for political fun and corporate profit. It would appear that one size does indeed fit all even though an illusion.

Everyone should get the vaccine because anybody can die or be hospitalized from covid, young, old, good health, bad health, etc.

It's been scientifically proven that the vaccine has no serious, statistically significant side effects, and that it radically reduces the chance of someone being hospitalized with covid.

 

[snakestretcher]

Their infection rate is far lower than elsewhere in Europe...and their death rate is a lot lower than Scotland's ...and up to this point they have not given up basic human rights...though that is changing due to outside pressure no doubt.

The herd immunity experiment there failed. What are these "basic human rights" you think they didn't give up, but might?

 

[Big Eye]

I

Why would I regret it? I've got 3 covid vaccines, and so does virtually every person I know, and I've never seen or heard from anybody having even the slightest negative effect from them.

I do however have friends and family who were unvaccinated and died from covid. You don't have to trust any news or studies to recognize YOU PERSONALLY don't know anybody who's suffered from getting the vaccine.


Everyone should get the vaccine because anybody can die or be hospitalized from covid, young, old, good health, bad health, etc.

It's been scientifically proven that the vaccine has no serious, statistically significant side effects, and that it radically reduces the chance of someone being hospitalized with covid.

Imo the problem with getting regular spike proteins boosts is an increased chance of clotting...so heart attacks, strokes could become a serious issue . You get spike proteins from the infection too but hopefully not as many and not every few months. The other possible issue I have read about is constantly amplified antibody production may lead to a weakened immune system ( basically wearing it out) and concentrating our immune systems on just spike proteins could focus our immunity too much rather than holistically. I guess time will tell . I do know of 3 people that have had strokes after being boosted...2 old chaps and a younger woman who died...but I don't know if the vaccines were responsible. I don't know anyone that has died of/with Covid and I live in one of the most populated areas of Europe.

 

[Big Eye]

The herd immunity experiment there failed. What are these "basic human rights" you think they didn't give up, but might?

Only one aspect of their lockdown failed, which the government there admitted, they did not lockdown their care homes at the start of the "pandemic"... since then their record has got better and better and herd immunity probably explains their improving situation . It will be interesting to see how they get on with the Moronic variant.

 

[snakestretcher]

Only one aspect of their lockdown failed, which the government there admitted, they did not lockdown their care homes at the start of the "pandemic"... since then their record has got better and better and herd immunity probably explains their improving situation . It will be interesting to see how they get on with the Moronic variant.

No, what explains Sweden's relatively light rates is that the Swedes trust their government, and were responsible enough to understand that social distancing and other measures made sense to comply with.

https://ejpr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1475-6765.12419

Trust in government in Sweden and Denmark during the COVID-19 epidemic

(2021). Trust in government in Sweden and Denmark during the COVID-19 epidemic. West European Politics: Vol. 44, COVID-19 in Europe: Political Reactions and Consequences. Edited by Klaus H. Goetz, Dorte Sindbjerg Martinsen and Wolfgang C. Müller, pp. 1180-1204.

www.tandfonline.com

 

[Big Eye]

No, what explains Sweden's relatively light rates is that the Swedes trust their government, and were responsible enough to understand that social distancing and other measures made sense to comply with.

https://ejpr.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1475-6765.12419

Trust in government in Sweden and Denmark during the COVID-19 epidemic

(2021). Trust in government in Sweden and Denmark during the COVID-19 epidemic. West European Politics: Vol. 44, COVID-19 in Europe: Political Reactions and Consequences. Edited by Klaus H. Goetz, Dorte Sindbjerg Martinsen and Wolfgang C. Müller, pp. 1180-1204.

www.tandfonline.com

Interestingly enough...Sweden has had lower mortality rates than normal throughout the "pandemic"...

Sweden Has Had *Negative* Excess Mortality Since the Start of 2020 – The Daily Sceptic

New figures from the ONS show that, between January 2020 and June 2021, Sweden had *negative* excess mortality. This constitutes a complete vindication of Anders Tegnell's "trust-based" approach. Well done, professor!

dailysceptic.org

 

[snakestretcher]

Interestingly enough...Sweden has had lower mortality rates than normal throughout the "pandemic"...

Sweden Has Had *Negative* Excess Mortality Since the Start of 2020 – The Daily Sceptic

New figures from the ONS show that, between January 2020 and June 2021, Sweden had *negative* excess mortality. This constitutes a complete vindication of Anders Tegnell's "trust-based" approach. Well done, professor!

dailysceptic.org

For the reason I mentioned. They didn't waste their breath whining about 'rights' or 'freedom' which helps nobody.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I

Imo the problem with getting regular spike proteins boosts is an increased chance of clotting...so heart attacks, strokes could become a serious issue . You get spike proteins from the infection too but hopefully not as many and not every few months. The other possible issue I have read about is constantly amplified antibody production may lead to a weakened immune system ( basically wearing it out) and concentrating our immune systems on just spike proteins could focus our immunity too much rather than holistically. I guess time will tell . I do know of 3 people that have had strokes after being boosted...2 old chaps and a younger woman who died...but I don't know if the vaccines were responsible. I don't know anyone that has died of/with Covid and I live in one of the most populated areas of Europe.

"Your humble opinion"? What qualifications do you have that make your opinion any value in a scientific discussion? Honestly, how many full days of your life have you dedicated to studying viruses and vaccines? Just an estimate.

 

[Fledermaus]

Their infection rate is far lower than elsewhere in Europe...and their death rate is a lot lower than Scotland's ...and up to this point they have not given up basic human rights...though that is changing due to outside pressure no doubt.

And they still died at a rate far greater than their peers..