Why I don't "understand" complaints about vaccine mandates

[roguenuke]

The only people fighting against vaccines are the same one's who've been doing it for over a few decades now.
But the people here today are fighting against being mandated to do something against their will. With more than a few of them, already having taken the vaccine, like myself.

I have not seen a religion like that in the US, or at least not one being practiced as such. As for forcing them into taking a vaccine, I would still have to advise against it. Once you step over someone else's rights, or even their beliefs. You're just helping pave the way for someone else to do the same to you.

That's not about the only ones fighting against the Covid vaccine. There are significantly more people refusing the Covid vaccine who were more than willing to get plenty of other vaccines. One big example is the military. Very, very few military members have any sort of vaccine exemption for all vaccines. Yet we have at least dozens, possibly hundreds of military personnel refusing to get the Covid vaccine, despite being forced to get other vaccines, including the annual flu vaccine.

Doesn't matter if you've seen such a religion or not.

People do not have a right to put others in danger from their decisions, especially others they work with, or from their religious beliefs.

All rights come with a balance.

 

[jdog]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

Your position is based on a primary misconception, and that is that the vaccine is beneficial to everyone. It is not. In fact it has killed more that 15000 people worldwide and injured millions of others. The other misconception is that the vaccine in some way prevents transmission of the virus, which it does not, and it never claimed to.
The vaccine also has the downside of creating a push in the mutation of the virus due to its selectivity. Virology is a complicated issue, and there is no such thing as a course of medical action that is right for everyone. The right to decide on your own personal healthcare based on your own unique circumstance is a basic human right and no one should ever be forced or coerced into making medical decisions based on the political pressure of a mob.

 

[iguanaman]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

There also the historic fact that mandates for vaccines are the rule in this country not the exception. George Washington mandated vaccines for smallpox.

 

[roguenuke]

Your position is based on a primary misconception, and that is that the vaccine is beneficial to everyone. It is not. In fact it has killed more that 15000 people worldwide and injured millions of others. The other misconception is that the vaccine in some way prevents transmission of the virus, which it does not, and it never claimed to.
The vaccine also has the downside of creating a push in the mutation of the virus due to its selectivity. Virology is a complicated issue, and there is no such thing as a course of medical action that is right for everyone. The right to decide on your own personal healthcare based on your own unique circumstance is a basic human right and no one should ever be forced or coerced into making medical decisions based on the political pressure of a mob.

There is no evidence to support that the vaccines here in the US, that we have available (you do realize there is more than one, even more than 3, right?) have killed "15k people". That is BS.

There has always been a balance to your healthcare and other considerations. That is why you couldn't decide to modify yourself to allow you to spray/spit acid or poison from your mouth or other parts of your body. Yes, that would be part of your healthcare, but it would also put others in danger.

 

[iguanaman]

Your position is based on a primary misconception, and that is that the vaccine is beneficial to everyone. It is not. In fact it has killed more that 15000 people worldwide and injured millions of others. The other misconception is that the vaccine in some way prevents transmission of the virus, which it does not, and it never claimed to.
The vaccine also has the downside of creating a push in the mutation of the virus due to its selectivity. Virology is a complicated issue, and there is no such thing as a course of medical action that is right for everyone. The right to decide on your own personal healthcare based on your own unique circumstance is a basic human right and no one should ever be forced or coerced into making medical decisions based on the political pressure of a mob.

Those are all lies. There is no evidence that ANYONE has died from the vaccine and the vaccinated are 5 times less likely to be infected than the unvaccinated. There is no good reason not to be vaccinated. Absolutely none. We have always mandated vaccines in this country going back to George Washington.

 

[jdog]

There is no evidence to support that the vaccines here in the US, that we have available (you do realize there is more than one, even more than 3, right?) have killed "15k people". That is BS.

There has always been a balance to your healthcare and other considerations. That is why you couldn't decide to modify yourself to allow you to spray/spit acid or poison from your mouth or other parts of your body. Yes, that would be part of your healthcare, but it would also put others in danger.

The evidence is based on reports from VAERS and EUDRA which are the reporting agencies in the US and Europe tasked with recording negative drug reactions. There results are known to be less that the actual numbers due to failure to report all negative effects. The criteria for counting the outcome of the vaccine, are similar to the method used to record the outcomes of the virus in that they record people who died after taking the vaccine, and not necessarily from it, just as the data on Covid counts the people who died with it, and not necessarily those who died of it.
You should educate yourself and not allow your prejudice and ignorance to lead you to false conclusions.

 

[jdog]

Those are all lies. There is no evidence that ANYONE has died from the vaccine and the vaccinated are 5 times less likely to be infected than the unvaccinated. There is no good reason not to be vaccinated. Absolutely none. We have always mandated vaccines in this country going back to George Washington.

The vaccines does absolutely nothing to prevent infection. That is not how vaccines work. Anyone with even a fundamental knowledge of virology understands that vaccines work by introducing virus to the immune system to stimulate the production of antibodies. The antibodies do not in any way effect your susceptibility to the virus, they theoretically give your immune system the head start to begin to fight it once you are already infected. Perhaps you need to obtain a middle school level biology text book and lean a little bit before you make embarrassing statements.

 

[iguanaman]

The evidence is based on reports from VAERS and EUDRA which are the reporting agencies in the US and Europe tasked with recording negative drug reactions. There results are known to be less that the actual numbers due to failure to report all negative effects. The criteria for counting the outcome of the vaccine, are similar to the method used to record the outcomes of the virus in that they record people who died after taking the vaccine, and not necessarily from it, just as the data on Covid counts the people who died with it, and not necessarily those who died of it.
You should educate yourself and not allow your prejudice and ignorance to lead you to false conclusions.

There is no evidence that even one of those VAERS reported deaths were related to the vaccine. The vast majority of Covid deaths are related to the virus and the science of excess deaths indicates that the actual covid deaths are higher than the reported numbers.

 

[jdog]

There is no evidence that even one of those VAERS reported deaths were related to the vaccine. The vast majority of Covid deaths are related to the virus and the science of excess deaths indicates that the actual covid deaths are higher than the reported numbers.

You can use that same logic to claim that no one has died from Covid. People do not die of Covid, they die from pneumonia or congestive heart failure or some other reason that it is being assumed was caused by the virus. In the same way, it is not the vaccine that kills people, it is the blood clots, the myocarditis, the strokes, and the other spike protein induced patholoiges that kill them. The CDC and JAMA both admit the deaths, so you cannot deny it.

 

[Mach]

The vaccines does absolutely nothing to prevent infection. That is not how vaccines work. Anyone with even a fundamental knowledge of virology understands

Understands that they should use published studies and CDC guidance rather than rando internet remarks.

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

A new CDC study finds the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines authorized by the Food and Drug Administration (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) reduce the risk of infection by 91 percent for fully vaccinated people. This adds to the growing body of real-world evidence of their effectiveness.

Now, a variety of studies show different numbers, but generally yes, it's believed based on evidence, that the Covid vaccine reduces your chance of getting it IN ADDITION to reducing your risk of hospitalization, severe symptoms, and death.

 

[iguanaman]

You can use that same logic to claim that no one has died from Covid. People do not die of Covid, they die from pneumonia or congestive heart failure or some other reason that it is being assumed was caused by the virus. In the same way, it is not the vaccine that kills people, it is the blood clots, the myocarditis, the strokes, and the other spike protein induced patholoiges that kill them. The CDC and JAMA both admit the deaths, so you cannot deny it.

Covid pneumonia is a distinct disease and it is caused by the virus infecting the lungs and is the major cause of death from covid. The CDC has no reported deaths from the Mrna vaccines at all. The spike proteins induce immunity responses and are not harmful either. The J&J vaccine has a few deaths from blood clots and that is it. If you are worried about side effects get the Mrna vaccine. They are more effective and safer,

• Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 390 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 27, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 8,164 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages].

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

 

[jdog]

Understands that they should use published studies and CDC guidance rather than rando internet remarks.

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

A new CDC study finds the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines authorized by the Food and Drug Administration (Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna) reduce the risk of infection by 91 percent for fully vaccinated people. This adds to the growing body of real-world evidence of their effectiveness.

Now, a variety of studies show different numbers, but generally yes, it's believed based on evidence, that the Covid vaccine reduces your chance of getting it IN ADDITION to reducing your risk of hospitalization, severe symptoms, and death.

You are trying to confuse infection with contraction and contagion. A vaccine has no ability to protect you from contacting the virus, it can only prevent the progression of the disease once it has infected you. This is what is called being mildly, or a symptomatically infected. The fact that you are not showing symptoms does not mean you are not infected, and it does not mean you cannot infect others. Several studies have shown that asymptomatic carriers have as much or more viral load in their noses and can therefore shed those virus.

 

[roguenuke]

The evidence is based on reports from VAERS and EUDRA which are the reporting agencies in the US and Europe tasked with recording negative drug reactions. There results are known to be less that the actual numbers due to failure to report all negative effects. The criteria for counting the outcome of the vaccine, are similar to the method used to record the outcomes of the virus in that they record people who died after taking the vaccine, and not necessarily from it, just as the data on Covid counts the people who died with it, and not necessarily those who died of it.
You should educate yourself and not allow your prejudice and ignorance to lead you to false conclusions.

VAERS is not reliable. VAERS is used to look for potential patterns. It is a starting point, not evidence of anything. It would then require actual research, real research to see if those things really do happen, if those side effects are occurring. Anyone who uses VAERS as any sort of indicator for deaths particularly is ignorant about what VAERS is. You or I can go into VAERS and make any report we want to. It could even be a truthful report and still be wrong, not really caused by the vaccine, like the vast majority of those reports aren't.

If I was completely uninformed and believed conspiracy theories, I could easily blame the vaccine for my son's emergency surgery yesterday, report it to VAERS, saying it was likely a delayed reaction from him getting the vaccine a few weeks ago. Now he required emergency surgery, despite the doctor telling me that it was due to some rare condition that resulted in muscles/tissues not developing as they should have but becoming an issue now that he is a teenager (puberty), that is actually for something quite similar to things that have been described in VAERS and other outlets as a rare side effect. It just so happens that he had the vaccine a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Mach]

You are trying to confuse infection with contraction and contagion. A vaccine has no ability to protect you from contacting the virus, it can only prevent the progression of the disease once it has infected you. This is what is called being mildly, or a symptomatically infected. The fact that you are not showing symptoms does not mean you are not infected, and it does not mean you cannot infect others. Several studies have shown that asymptomatic carriers have as much or more viral load in their noses and can therefore shed those virus.

Nonsnese.
What part of "reduced risk of infection" confuses you?

 

[roguenuke]

You can use that same logic to claim that no one has died from Covid. People do not die of Covid, they die from pneumonia or congestive heart failure or some other reason that it is being assumed was caused by the virus. In the same way, it is not the vaccine that kills people, it is the blood clots, the myocarditis, the strokes, and the other spike protein induced patholoiges that kill them. The CDC and JAMA both admit the deaths, so you cannot deny it.

No, the same logic does not apply at all to deaths due to Covid itself. Covid deaths require actual evidence from medical records, filled out by doctors. VAERS can be filed by anyone. And doctors have to report deaths that occur within a specific timeframe after getting a vaccine even if the death is believed to be by something completely different, believed the vaccine had nothing to do with it. The same law does not apply the other way either. In fact, by law, on death certificates themselves, Doctors are required to honestly report what they believe was the cause of death. So it is in fact possible for a person to have their cause of death as Covid but also have been reported as having the vaccine, reported on VAERS if they died from covid within a few days of being given the vaccine for Covid.

Fact Check-Reports of 9,318 VAERS COVID-19 vaccine deaths do not prove causality

Posts are sharing numbers reported to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) as deaths following COVID-19 vaccinations and claiming that it proves the vaccines have killed people. This is false. Anyone can submit a report into the system and the reports...

www.reuters.com

Legally, despite that death having to legally have been reported to VAERS, when they check the medical records, such a death would be deemed as caused by Covid, not by the vaccine within any sort of study to take it further.

 

[jdog]

No, the same logic does not apply at all to deaths due to Covid itself. Covid deaths require actual evidence from medical records, filled out by doctors. VAERS can be filed by anyone. And doctors have to report deaths that occur within a specific timeframe after getting a vaccine even if the death is believed to be by something completely different, believed the vaccine had nothing to do with it. The same law does not apply the other way either. In fact, by law, on death certificates themselves, Doctors are required to honestly report what they believe was the cause of death. So it is in fact possible for a person to have their cause of death as Covid but also have been reported as having the vaccine, reported on VAERS if they died from covid within a few days of being given the vaccine for Covid.

Fact Check-Reports of 9,318 VAERS COVID-19 vaccine deaths do not prove causality

Posts are sharing numbers reported to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) as deaths following COVID-19 vaccinations and claiming that it proves the vaccines have killed people. This is false. Anyone can submit a report into the system and the reports...

www.reuters.com

Legally, despite that death having to legally have been reported to VAERS, when they check the medical records, such a death would be deemed as caused by Covid, not by the vaccine within any sort of study to take it further.

You seem to ignore the fact that everyone including the vaccine manufactures and the Federal Government ADMIT vaccine related deaths. The fact that people die from the effects of the vaccine are not in question, only the number.

 

[jdog]

Covid pneumonia is a distinct disease and it is caused by the virus infecting the lungs and is the major cause of death from covid. The CDC has no reported deaths from the Mrna vaccines at all. The spike proteins induce immunity responses and are not harmful either. The J&J vaccine has a few deaths from blood clots and that is it. If you are worried about side effects get the Mrna vaccine. They are more effective and safer,

• Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 390 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 27, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 8,164 reports of death (0.0021%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages].

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Do you have a clue how mRNA vaccine work? The induce the immune system to produce spike proteins. Spike protein are pathogenic. They attack the vascular system. The early lie about the vaccine was that the spike protiens would stay in the mussle where they were produced, but we now know that is not the case, and that they spread throughout the body. The fact that vaccines cause injury and death are not debatable. The question is how many deaths and how much injury. There has never been, and will never be a completely safe vaccine.

 

[roguenuke]

You seem to ignore the fact that everyone including the vaccine manufactures and the Federal Government ADMIT vaccine related deaths. The fact that people die from the effects of the vaccine are not in question, only the number.

Not to thousands of deaths, they do not. Please provide how many deaths are "admitted" to. Their numbers. VAERS is not that report. But from what I've found, there have only been 3 vaccine related deaths "admitted to".

Only a few is not really a lot to be concerned about, especially since we have deaths from people getting stung by bees or eating strawberries. Do you also think that we should stop allowing bees to survive or selling strawberries as food, or peanuts or shrimp?

 

[jdog]

Not to thousands of deaths, they do not. Please provide how many deaths are "admitted" to. Their numbers. VAERS is not that report.

Only a few is not really a lot to be concerned about, especially since we have deaths from people getting stung by bees or eating strawberries. But from what I've found, there have only been 3 vaccine related deaths "admitted to".

While you can scream correlation is not causation all day long, but it is when looked at statistically. When you have thousands of people dying after taking a vaccine from the same issues, namely blood clots, heart attack, and stroke, and you have statistical evidence that these numbers are radically different in demographics from what we saw before the vaccine program began then that is circumstantial proof.

 

[iguanaman]

Do you have a clue how mRNA vaccine work? The induce the immune system to produce spike proteins. Spike protein are pathogenic. They attack the vascular system. The early lie about the vaccine was that the spike protiens would stay in the mussle where they were produced, but we now know that is not the case, and that they spread throughout the body. The fact that vaccines cause injury and death are not debatable. The question is how many deaths and how much injury. There has never been, and will never be a completely safe vaccine.

Boy are you confused and wrong. Spike proteins are not pathogens and don't "attack" anything they are merely foreign proteins that your body does not recognize and so it attacks and removes them. They are a part of the Covid virus so your body remembers the protein and attacks the virus too. Even those with immune disorders can safely take Mrna vaccines because they contain no pathogens or virus. The Mrna jabs are among the safest vaccines ever developed.


Some have expressed concern that the spike protein or other parts of the mRNA vaccines build up in the body, particularly in the ovaries or the brain. Here we break down the data to show where mRNA vaccines (and spike proteins) travel in the body. There is no evidence that any mRNA or protein accumulates in any organ.

Why do they use spike proteins?​

For COVID-19 vaccines, all of the approved vaccines so far used the spike protein. The spike protein is located on the outside of a coronavirus and is how SARS-CoV-2 (the coronavirus) enters human cells. Its location on the outside of the virus makes it so the immune system can recognize it easily.

The spike protein is unique to SARS-CoV-2 – it doesn't look like other proteins your body makes. So antibodies created against the spike protein won't harm your body, they will only target coronavirus.

How long mRNA lasts in the body​

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work by introducing mRNA (messenger RNA) into your muscle cells. The cells make copies of the spike protein and the mRNA is quickly degraded (within a few days). The cell breaks the mRNA up into small harmless pieces. mRNA is very fragile; that's one reason why mRNA vaccines must be so carefully preserved at very low temperatures.

How long spike proteins last in the body​

The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) estimates that the spike proteins that were generated by COVID-19 vaccines last up to a few weeks, like other proteins made by the body. The immune system quickly identifies, attacks and destroys the spike proteins because it recognizes them as not part of you. This "learning the enemy" process is how the immune system figures out how to defeat the real coronavirus. It remembers what it saw and when you are exposed to coronavirus in the future it can rapidly mount an effective immune response.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go

 

[iguanaman]

While you can scream correlation is not causation all day long, but it is when looked at statistically. When you have thousands of people dying after taking a vaccine from the same issues, namely blood clots, heart attack, and stroke, and you have statistical evidence that these numbers are radically different in demographics from what we saw before the vaccine program began then that is circumstantial proof.

1000's of people have been dying daily from heart attacks and strokes long before there were any covid vaccines. They leading causes of death silly. Blaming them on the vaccine is ridiculous. The covid vaccines are safe and effective and risk of death from covid is far higher than the near zero risk of taking a vaccine.

 

[roguenuke]

While you can scream correlation is not causation all day long, but it is when looked at statistically. When you have thousands of people dying after taking a vaccine from the same issues, namely blood clots, heart attack, and stroke, and you have statistical evidence that these numbers are radically different in demographics from what we saw before the vaccine program began then that is circumstantial proof.

No. When looked at statistically we see that there are a lot of stupid people out there. Statistically, there should be hundreds of deaths every week at least due to things other than vaccinations even in those who are getting vaccinated, particularly when we had tens of thousands or more getting vaccinated every week. Every 40 seconds a person has a heart attack. There are about 640k people dying from heart disease every year in the US. That is over 1700 deaths a day. Do you not think that some of those people very likely got vaccinated within days, weeks, or months of that death? About 400 people die from strokes in the US every single day too. Blood clots happen to about 900k people in the US every year (estimated). Which means statistically, we should have tens of thousands of reports from people with these issues in VAERS just from correlation of people who have had the vaccine and died within months or sooner after getting it.

Data and Statistics on Venous Thromboembolism | CDC

Read data highlights about venous thromboembolism.

www.cdc.gov

Blood clots, heart attacks and strokes happen to people every single day. You don't have that evidence you claim, not even statistically, since you would have to rule out the millions (combined) of those things that regularly happen to people. You are claiming it but have not shown it at all. Again, VAERS does not offer enough information to make any sort of verification about anything reported there by laypersons.

 

[iguanaman]

The vaccines does absolutely nothing to prevent infection. That is not how vaccines work. Anyone with even a fundamental knowledge of virology understands that vaccines work by introducing virus to the immune system to stimulate the production of antibodies. The antibodies do not in any way effect your susceptibility to the virus, they theoretically give your immune system the head start to begin to fight it once you are already infected. Perhaps you need to obtain a middle school level biology text book and lean a little bit before you make embarrassing statements.

Getting a covid infection means that the virus is reproducing in you body. A vaccinated person has the ability to attack the virus as soon as it enters the body and before it is able to reproduce in our cells. That means they are protected from infection. Breakthrough infections occur either because too many virus were introduced for your defenses to handle or your immunity is not high enough to prevent virus reproduction. An unvaccinated person is 5 times more likely to develop a covid infection than a vaccinated one is. What about those facts escape you?

 

[jdog]

Getting a covid infection means that the virus is reproducing in you body. A vaccinated person has the ability to attack the virus as soon as it enters the body and before it is able to reproduce in our cells. That means they are protected from infection. Breakthrough infections occur either because too many virus were introduced for your defenses to handle or your immunity is not high enough to prevent virus reproduction. An unvaccinated person is 5 times more likely to develop a covid infection than a vaccinated one is. What about those facts escape you?

No, that is not correct. It takes several days for the immune system to get up to speed, and begin to fight the virus. The purpose of the vaccine is to speed up the process, and to strengthen the response. There is no such thing as a break through infection. Every virus produces both the base virus, and mutations as with everything in the living world. Natural immunity treats all viruses infecting the body the same, while vaccine created immunity is targeted to recognize a specific construction. Vaccine created immunity will ignore a virus it cannot identify. That is how the vaccinated become infected with new strains.

 

[noonereal]

The objection seems to involve around tribalism rather than sound reasoning. Mark me down as a "yes" for vaccine mandates and vaccine "passports".

Here me out people:

States require children to get vaccinated for at least 8 different vaccines to attend a school.

Your family dog/cat has to get their rabies shots every 3 years or so.

Hospital and nursing home employees have to get 8 different vaccines in order to work.

Everybody was required to get the Small Pox and Polio vaccine or have to pay fines.

Why is it bad to add a 9th or a 10th vaccine to the list? Covid is killing and hospitalizing people everyday.

The uneducated and ignorant were told their "beliefs" were as good as science and they were also empowered in this potential civilization ending belief by their dark lord, Trump.


It rather simple. Deplorable but simple.