Why has Marxism never worked?

[MKULTRABOY]

But the effect that had on the working class left a bit to be desired.

In the USSR definitely.

 

[VF500]

In the USSR definitely.

Oh, my God!! You made some sense Bump-bump. You better take a couple aspirin and go lay down until it passes.

But, I can't let you off the hook on your "endemic economic issues" balony. That's just to juicy. Besides the failure in Kenya after Jomo Kenyatta, what was the deal in Ghana? Ghana, you'll remember was the old Gold Coast. It was so named because it had a lot of gold mines but it was also a major producer of cocoa. It's economy was in good shape when the British left. So what happened? Kwame Nkrumah took over and decided he was going to industrialize the country, just like all good Marxist do. Although he wasn't a true Marxist, he was a very strong socialist.

Kwame Nkrumah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gold Coast had been among the wealthiest and most socially advanced areas in Africa, with schools, railways, hospitals, social security and an advanced economy. Under Nkrumah’s leadership, Ghana adopted some socialist policies and practices.

Oops, here it comes.

Nkrumah attempted to rapidly industrialize Ghana's economy. He reasoned that if Ghana escaped the colonial trade system by reducing dependence on foreign capital, technology, and material goods, it could become truly independent. Unfortunately, industrialization hurt the country’s cocoa sector. Many economic projects he initiated were unsuccessful, or with delayed benefits. The Akosombo Dam was expensive, but today produces most of Ghana's hydroelectric power. Nkrumah's policies did not free Ghana from dependence on Western imports. By the time he was deposed in 1966, Ghana had fallen from one of the richest countries in Africa, to one of the poorest.

So, how's that again about the "endemic economic issues"? Sounds like bad leadership again to me. These people were brought up under the British economic system and saw how well it worked and yet they always think they can reinvent the wheel and make it "better". Stupid.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

I was mentioning it as a trend, also, resource rich countries that are small tend to have difficulties governing their wealth. One example to the contrary does not refute the trend, weirdo.

 

[Luck19]

You'd have to be a person who knows very little of the world to think somebody who could write Das Kapital is 'a moron'. Simply because the man essentially wrote the guide on how to be a capitalist. Seriously, if you're going to do nothing but one liners at least pick out a book before you speak. If it wasn't for Marx and Engels very few people would know how to properly define capitalism. Words like 'commodities', 'capital goods', 'consumer goods'; all of them were first defined and explored in detail by Marx long before your one liner ass came into existence.

Then again what else am I supposed to expect from somebody who believes their rights come from some fairy in the sky?

Not to mention that Marx was one of the founders of social science.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Ummmm. Maybe you didn't notice, but that's what this thread is all about. Marxism hasn't worked where it's been put in place.

Marxism isn't a ****ing socioeconomic model to be "put in place" so this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[WeAreReborn]

I realize that it has a great chance of working if put into place.
Ummmm. Maybe you didn't notice, but that's what this thread is all about. Marxism hasn't worked where it's been put in place.

Also, in a truly Communist society people would work much less then in a Capitalistic one. That being because labor wouldn't be wasted on useless bureacratic jobs and unemployment would be gone.

Boy, has somebody sold you a bill of goods. Tell, you what. Google up "recreational activities in Communist countries" and see what you come up with for leisure time activities, as if there were any leisure time. You find that for me OK? What you'll find is some nebulous references to "sport" and that's it. There's no such thing as football, basketball, baseball, golf or anything else going on. You certainly wouldn't find anything worth watching on TV. I guess you think there was such a thing as a "weekend" in the USSR. They worked seven days a week you know. Why do you think there's such a high rate of alcoholism in Russia? There's nothing to do but sit around and get shiit faced. It was kept partially under control under communism by state regulation. (No, the state regulates everything?? Once again, I'm shocked. :shock: )

For a while, alcoholism in Russia was curbed after the State regulated the overall supply of alcohol. However the effect wasn’t permanent. Alcohol consumption in Russia started to increase again in 1987 particularly in hard liqueur, and the country’s beverage of choice – Vodka.
Gee, what happened in 1987?

Ok so people like alcohol, there are plenty of drunks in America too. I don't see how that is representative of the living standard. I would like a link or some evidence about the 7 days of work a week, I have never heard of that even when arguing against die hard Capitalists. Ok, so they didn't have good tv? Is that what we are resorting to? If anything this is a good thing. Television is shown to have detrimental effects on your mind.
Pediatricians: Television Unhealthy For Young Minds
Too Much TV is an Unhealthy Habit | HealthandAge – Medical Articles and News for Health in Aging > Live Well, Live Longer
Not to mention you burn more calories staring a blank wall then watching a normal television program. I'm not saying television is the devil but you can live fine without it. Also, it is a small price to pay considering that almost everyone had a place to live and a job to work at, which ensured they had food to eat. I would rather live in a society where everyone is able to survive and be comfortable as opposed to somewhere like America where some people have massive amounts of luxury while the rest live on the streets or in projects.
Also the whole thing you said about the USSR is a Marxist state may not be valid, like I said there is debate if it was after Lenin. So far all you have been talking about is the later years or mid years of USSR, so it is debatable if it is even valid to Marxism.

 

[WeAreReborn]

Oh, my God!! You made some sense Bump-bump. You better take a couple aspirin and go lay down until it passes.

But, I can't let you off the hook on your "endemic economic issues" balony. That's just to juicy. Besides the failure in Kenya after Jomo Kenyatta, what was the deal in Ghana? Ghana, you'll remember was the old Gold Coast. It was so named because it had a lot of gold mines but it was also a major producer of cocoa. It's economy was in good shape when the British left. So what happened? Kwame Nkrumah took over and decided he was going to industrialize the country, just like all good Marxist do. Although he wasn't a true Marxist, he was a very strong socialist.

Kwame Nkrumah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gold Coast had been among the wealthiest and most socially advanced areas in Africa, with schools, railways, hospitals, social security and an advanced economy. Under Nkrumah’s leadership, Ghana adopted some socialist policies and practices.

Oops, here it comes.

Nkrumah attempted to rapidly industrialize Ghana's economy. He reasoned that if Ghana escaped the colonial trade system by reducing dependence on foreign capital, technology, and material goods, it could become truly independent. Unfortunately, industrialization hurt the country’s cocoa sector. Many economic projects he initiated were unsuccessful, or with delayed benefits. The Akosombo Dam was expensive, but today produces most of Ghana's hydroelectric power. Nkrumah's policies did not free Ghana from dependence on Western imports. By the time he was deposed in 1966, Ghana had fallen from one of the richest countries in Africa, to one of the poorest.

So, how's that again about the "endemic economic issues"? Sounds like bad leadership again to me. These people were brought up under the British economic system and saw how well it worked and yet they always think they can reinvent the wheel and make it "better". Stupid.

First off even though this wasn't aimed at me that is simply rude and shows your lack of maturity. Also, that is irrelevant, ok so a guy fails at industry? So industrializing is as much Capitalistic as it is Communist. So nice try? Maybe next time you will make a relevant post!

 

[Hatuey]

Not to mention that Marx was one of the founders of social science.

It's crazy. People actually believe Marx was a 'stupid' man and it's always people who believe in the craziest ****. You'll never find somebody who knows about economics calling Marx 'a moron'. You'll find that they believe Marx was wrong, but a moron? Seriously, he's the most important economist in the last 300 years.

 

[MichaelW]

Besides the failure in Kenya after Jomo Kenyatta, what was the deal in Ghana? Ghana, you'll remember was the old Gold Coast. It was so named because it had a lot of gold mines but it was also a major producer of cocoa. It's economy was in good shape when the British left. So what happened? Kwame Nkrumah took over and decided he was going to industrialize the country, just like all good Marxist do. Although he wasn't a true Marxist, he was a very strong socialist.

Kwame Nkrumah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gold Coast had been among the wealthiest and most socially advanced areas in Africa, with schools, railways, hospitals, social security and an advanced economy. Under Nkrumah’s leadership, Ghana adopted some socialist policies and practices.

Oops, here it comes.

Nkrumah attempted to rapidly industrialize Ghana's economy. He reasoned that if Ghana escaped the colonial trade system by reducing dependence on foreign capital, technology, and material goods, it could become truly independent. Unfortunately, industrialization hurt the country’s cocoa sector. Many economic projects he initiated were unsuccessful, or with delayed benefits. The Akosombo Dam was expensive, but today produces most of Ghana's hydroelectric power. Nkrumah's policies did not free Ghana from dependence on Western imports. By the time he was deposed in 1966, Ghana had fallen from one of the richest countries in Africa, to one of the poorest.

So, how's that again about the "endemic economic issues"? Sounds like bad leadership again to me. These people were brought up under the British economic system and saw how well it worked and yet they always think they can reinvent the wheel and make it "better". Stupid.

And do you know why this happened? Because he concentrated too much on industrialization and put hardly and funds into the cocoa industry. This in turn led to the decimation of the Ghanan cocoa industry. It was badly implemented. Same thing happened in China.

 

[Technocrat]

That could be true. It has been a few years since I really focused in on China. My point more was that China really isn't Marxist either though. I honestly can't think of a country that went about it the way Marx said.

There is a reason for that. Marxism requires a degree of selflessness that is contrary to basic human nature. It is in our nature to ask, "What's in it for me?".
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." It sounds all nice & good, but it is contrary to how the human psyche works.

 

[Technocrat]

It's crazy. People actually believe Marx was a 'stupid' man and it's always people who believe in the craziest ****. You'll never find somebody who knows about economics calling Marx 'a moron'. You'll find that they believe Marx was wrong, but a moron? Seriously, he's the most important economist in the last 300 years.

He has gotten a lot of credit, & caused a lot of argument, anyway.
Problem is, his ideas were not even original. He just complied a bunch of socialist ideas that were already around, called them by a new name, published a book that appealed to the undereducated working class in Europe, & got rich in the process.

The "Marxists" in Russia merely replaced the "Nobility" (What a misnomer, but that is off topic) & ruled with a similar system (with the Party replacing the peerage) but were even but harsher in their manner.

Old Karl was not a "moron" but he was no "Einstien" either.

 

[zimmer]

First off that Iroquois statement is straight up racist and quite offensive and plain stupid. Peeing in the water supply? Really? Grow up kid.

LOL... ain't racist (nice try)... and what great advancements did these savages bring? Nada.

Greatest good for the greatest number? How does Capitalism do that? 1% of the population owns 40% of the wealth in America alone. It is much worse in other countries, I'm not sure how this is for the "greatest good".

Class warfare soldier... In communist countries it's a ruling elite that owns the whole shooting match.

So Russia is great now and Capitalism helped it? Even the US government says differently.

Russia's problem has always been poverty. Communism made it worse. It's not new. Now that there is some wealth, there is a greater divide but that's a good thing for it provides many avenues for job creation... so long as the government doesn't steal their wealth. Capitalism is the way to raise all boats... to paraphrase JFK.

So that is great the minority has better luxuries but everyone is suffering.

They not only suffered under communism, they were oppressed. When the people heard Reagan call it what it was... The Evil Empire, those oppressed masses had a glimmer of hope.

I guess you think being forced to manually picking spuds every autumn was a good thing. Or that they had to import wheat for survival... a country with ample quality farmland that couldn't feed its own was a good thing. That lack of freedom of movement and communication was a good thing? Sad... truly sad.

But I'm sure you wouldn't care as long as you were in that minority.

Also, thank you for you respectful post, I appreciate how half of your post was purely insults.

Ridiculing your absolutely ridiculous set of propositions and statements. Knowing many of these countries, your statements are absurd.

I suppose it is reflective of your lack of argument or your immaturity.

It illustrates my lack of tolerance for idiocy.

And journalists and schools did this? Lol, journalists just spew the same old crap about how Capitalism is great.

I wish they did, but unfortunately our press is filled with a bunch of socialists, and I get the feeling they like this country less than Obama does.

I have never seen a journalist INTENTIONALLY show how Capitalism fails.

They try... but it's an impossible task. There is no better alternative.

Schools? Yeah right, all my teachers were conservative and knew way less about politics then me. But I love how you assume you know my background and me by having no information. Assumptions sure are great...

Schools are notorious for their breeding your type. I was once a dumb-**** socialist, and the school system (as well as the press) helped shape that view. Luckily I traveled the world at a young age, met a lot of people and realized over many years... how absolutely wrong I was. Socialism is the road to hell, and Communism is a perverted ideology.

.

 

[zimmer]

It's crazy. People actually believe Marx was a 'stupid' man and it's always people who believe in the craziest ****. You'll never find somebody who knows about economics calling Marx 'a moron'. You'll find that they believe Marx was wrong, but a moron? Seriously, he's the most destructive economist in the last 300 years.

Correction in bold.

.

 

[Tashah]

No wonder it's never worked. Marxists and Communists themselves can't agree on what constitutes a Marxist/Communist country.

Of course, nothing that has been tried and failed in that vein seems to qualify.

 

[VF500]

Ok so people like alcohol, there are plenty of drunks in America too. I don't see how that is representative of the living standard. I would like a link or some evidence about the 7 days of work a week, I have never heard of that even when arguing against die hard Capitalists. Ok, so they didn't have good tv? Is that what we are resorting to? If anything this is a good thing. Television is shown to have detrimental effects on your mind.
Pediatricians: Television Unhealthy For Young Minds
Too Much TV is an Unhealthy Habit | HealthandAge – Medical Articles and News for Health in Aging > Live Well, Live Longer
Not to mention you burn more calories staring a blank wall then watching a normal television program. I'm not saying television is the devil but you can live fine without it. Also, it is a small price to pay considering that almost everyone had a place to live and a job to work at, which ensured they had food to eat. I would rather live in a society where everyone is able to survive and be comfortable as opposed to somewhere like America where some people have massive amounts of luxury while the rest live on the streets or in projects.
Also the whole thing you said about the USSR is a Marxist state may not be valid, like I said there is debate if it was after Lenin. So far all you have been talking about is the later years or mid years of USSR, so it is debatable if it is even valid to Marxism.

"You don't see..." is right. Does TV kill brain cells like alcohol? No, it doesn't. Does it cause kidney damage or birth defects in infants, along with other physical ailments? No again. But here's what Russians themselves think about the problem. They don't give a damn about what you do or don't see. When you're bored out of your skull from working day in and day out with no time off, you need something to numb your mind to reality.

Inflation topped the list with 56%, followed narrowly by alcoholism (53%) in a poll carried out by Russia's leading opinion pollster, VTsIOM, among 1,600 respondents.http://en.rian.ru/society/20101115/161344771.html

 

[majora$$hole]

You wouldn't? But to be fair to Marx no country has actually gone through the process the way he described it. So we have never seen a truly Marxist society.

right, greed always gets in the way.

 

[Hoplite]

LOL... ain't racist (nice try)... and what great advancements did these savages bring? Nada.

Wow, you're a pretty twisted SOB.

I wish they did, but unfortunately our press is filled with a bunch of socialists, and I get the feeling they like this country less than Obama does.

If they're all Socialists, why dont I know about this? I'm an SPUSA member and I've been involved in the SoCal chapter for almost five years now.

Schools are notorious for their breeding your type. I was once a dumb-**** socialist, and the school system (as well as the press) helped shape that view. Luckily I traveled the world at a young age, met a lot of people and realized over many years... how absolutely wrong I was. Socialism is the road to hell, and Communism is a perverted ideology.

You had education and you got over it?

 

[Hicup]

By "worked" I mean provided a standard of living on par with capitalist countries. Maybe it's because if several people use the same vehicle, no one takes care of it. Maybe it's being locked behind walls on penalty of death if you try to escape. Maybe it's not having a legal system to handle grievances. China didn't get a legal system started until 1979, three years after Mao finally died. Russia dreaded the coming of the Olympics for fear of who was going to defect at the first chance. I thought it was supposed to be a "workers paradise". Ask any East German about it. I worked for a German owned company for twenty-five years and spoke to several. No one had anything good to say. So come on you commie sypathizers. Give me some reasons why anyone would want to live under communism.

Simple, it doesn't factor in the corruptability of man. Case closed.


Tim-

 

[WeAreReborn]

LOL... ain't racist (nice try)... and what great advancements did these savages bring? Nada.

About the fact that the American constituion is based off how the Iroquois Confederation lead their own society? Or are we going to ignore the fact that their society is advanced so you can say ignorant and racists ideals? Yes calling an indegnous people savages is racist.

Class warfare soldier... In communist countries it's a ruling elite that owns the whole shooting match.

At least the ruling elite was pushing for and fighting for the workers as opposed to the American government who pushes for the rich and always has.

Russia's problem has always been poverty. Communism made it worse. It's not new. Now that there is some wealth, there is a greater divide but that's a good thing for it provides many avenues for job creation... so long as the government doesn't steal their wealth. Capitalism is the way to raise all boats... to paraphrase JFK.

Russia didn't have an economy before the Soviet Union and due to the government they were raised up to a Second world country, and could have been first world without all the hostility from America, with one of the strongest armies while maintaining good living standards for everyone. Capitalism can make a country first world but the majority of the population shall be trapped in poverty unlike what happened in the USSR.

They not only suffered under communism, they were oppressed. When the people heard Reagan call it what it was... The Evil Empire, those oppressed masses had a glimmer of hope.

So to quote the President who was not only racist but extremely anti-Communist, despite having never read Marx or Engels, about the USSR and expect to have good insight is foolish. Also you know how well Trickle Down economics worked...

I guess you think being forced to manually picking spuds every autumn was a good thing. Or that they had to import wheat for survival... a country with ample quality farmland that couldn't feed its own was a good thing. That lack of freedom of movement and communication was a good thing? Sad... truly sad.

Your lack of knowledge about Russia is evident. The majority of the land is not suitable for farming. The majority of the food came from the Ukraine and when the famine hit Ukraine a lot were starving. But that was a natural occuring event and it was a tragedy. But I didn't see America go to send food or any sort of economic help, people are people so why did they decide not to? Anyways the rest of the years everyone had enough to eat unlike the super power America.

It illustrates my lack of tolerance for idiocy.

I guess you can never listen to yourself speak then? Otherwise you would drive yourself crazy.

I wish they did, but unfortunately our press is filled with a bunch of socialists, and I get the feeling they like this country less than Obama does.

Your clear lack of knowledge about Socialism is showing. Our press does not cover real Socialist issues. You probably think the healthcare bill is socialist don't you? Please read what Socialism is about. It is about the people not the ruling elite, that is all.

Schools are notorious for their breeding your type. I was once a dumb-**** socialist, and the school system (as well as the press) helped shape that view. Luckily I traveled the world at a young age, met a lot of people and realized over many years... how absolutely wrong I was. Socialism is the road to hell, and Communism is a perverted ideology.

You clearly were never a Socialist otherwise you would actually realize how stupid your statemnets about it is. Socialism is the road to hell? LOL! The left is about people, the right is about profit or government at any cost. Now which one could more destructive? The press? The press is owned by corporations. Every news outlet is a business owned by big business. Big business wants no regulation and they want every chance to destroy and exploit the people to make more green paper. That is the opposite of Socialism. People over profit!

 

[WeAreReborn]

right, greed always gets in the way.

No America always gets in the way, intervenes and destroys the revolution. The contras prevent any real progress from happening. It has nothing to do with the actual revolutions themself.

 

[WeAreReborn]

There is a reason for that. Marxism requires a degree of selflessness that is contrary to basic human nature. It is in our nature to ask, "What's in it for me?".
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." It sounds all nice & good, but it is contrary to how the human psyche works.

You know what is in it for your? Guarnteed housing, food, water, clothing, healthcare, a job. Not only for you but for your family and neighbors. Sounds much better then toiling all your life knowing their is a chance you could lose your job in a Capitalist society then possibly your house and might have to go hungry. Also, what legitimate study has showed human nature is greedy??? I haven't even seen one questionable one! I don't want your personal analysis I want to see a scientific fact since that seems to be the main opposition to a otherwise great ideology.

 

[WeAreReborn]

"You don't see..." is right. Does TV kill brain cells like alcohol? No, it doesn't. Does it cause kidney damage or birth defects in infants, along with other physical ailments? No again. But here's what Russians themselves think about the problem. They don't give a damn about what you do or don't see. When you're bored out of your skull from working day in and day out with no time off, you need something to numb your mind to reality.

Inflation topped the list with 56%, followed narrowly by alcoholism (53%) in a poll carried out by Russia's leading opinion pollster, VTsIOM, among 1,600 respondents.http://en.rian.ru/society/20101115/161344771.html

"A 2008 government survey reveals that approximately 47 percent of Americans "binge" drink, or drink heavily. Thirty percent of Americans are addicted to nicotine. Alcohol and nicotine are attributed to more deaths per year than deaths related to most illegal drugs, combined, each year."
How Many Americans Suffer From Drug Addiction? | eHow.com
Hmm if that is the case looks like America isn't doing so hot either.

 

[Hoplite]

(Ringing School Bell Icon)
It is used because it is true.

It also assumes that human nature is immutable and unchangeable.

Some are. Some aren't. That's the individual's character that decides whether he is or not.

No...most of us are actually pretty greedy. It's a survival instinct we've kept from our days as apes; the more you had of some resource, the less likely you were to suffer when shortages happened.

If it is criminal, then we have laws for that. Because man is not perfect.
In dealings with others, if someone is deceitful and manipulative... they're likely not to get far... unless of course they're in a closed society... a Communist Society breeds it like roaches.

Deceit and manipulation is the cornerstone of our modern economy. What do you think marketing is?

There are greedy people in Capitalist societies, but it is your choice to deal withthem or not, and because the market offers a lot of alternatives, you are... Free to Choose... who you do business with. It helps shape behavior in a positive manner. That's why Americans have been amongst the happiest and most friendly people on this planet.

Except you arent. You THINK you have a choice. Most of everything you consume or view comes from probably less than 20 different sources. Your media is mostly filtered through one of the communications giants. Your food comes from massive multi-national conglomerates, some of which you probably haven't even heard of. Go ahead and chant "Freedom of choice" all you want, but at the end of the day, you're still giving your money to the same people.

What did they achieve to make society better? What was their great contribution to the advancement of man? Pissing in their drinking water?

They created a stable and self-sufficent society that stood on it's own. That is no small feat on the course of history.

Commies tried this. It failed epically and miserably. Capitalism has inefficiencies, but far fewer than any other system.

Really? You cant possibly see how a system that encourages unlimited consumption on a base of limited resources MIGHT have a few issues?

Say what? ROTFLOL... rift in society? If you want to see a rift... go to any former commi country, the scars are still visible, and the dmage to the people's brains is sad.
????:shock:??????:shock:?????:shock:??? It's our nature to compete and seek better lives. It's why the black market in the former commi countries provided vital foodstuffs on a tiny percent of the land used for agriculture.

Almost all former Communist countries are on a Capitalistic system currently. Part of Russia's population is doing much better and the standard of living has risen slightly, but there is still massive amounts of poverty and destitution. Why hasn't the free market fixed that?

No, it's not... and there is less poverty in these countries than before.

A reduction of a few percentage points, while yes by the Webster's sense is an improvement, is not meaningful. In Russia, the rise of Capitalism has been an extraordinary boost to organized crime.

Western companies are moving into these countries because there is skilled labor and they are cheaper. It's why their standard of living has increased by leaps and bounds in 20-years.

I would hardly call it leaps and bounds.

The locals say the beer is better, the vodka is better, food is plentiful and fresh, cars are better and pollute less, homes are nicer, clothes are better, they have better medical care

Can you demonstrate this?

This is why the US has the problems it has. People wholly ignorant about what makes society better, providing the greatest good to the greatest number.

Except that ISN'T what the US is about, the US is about "grab what you can as fast as you can."

Our school system is in dire need of reform, and the Journolists should be (insert your punishment) for committing crimes against humanity... for both are responsible for poisoning the minds of its citizens.

Do you disagree with the dissemination of information that has happened with the dawn of the digital era?

 

[Harshaw]

It also assumes that human nature is immutable and unchangeable.

It is. :shrug:

 

[Technocrat]

You know what is in it for your? Guarnteed housing, food, water, clothing, healthcare, a job. Not only for you but for your family and neighbors. Sounds much better then toiling all your life knowing their is a chance you could lose your job in a Capitalist society then possibly your house and might have to go hungry.

I have been laid off 4 times (all under democratic administrations by the way) & my family has not starved yet. Yes, it is a pain in the rear but it is not the end of the word. It is a small price to pay for not having to be told how much my family gets & deserves by some government bureaucrat. When I go back to work after a layoff I am thankful that I can chose which job to accept & negotiate what the compensation will be, as opposed to being told where to work & how much I will be paid whether I like it or not.

Also, what legitimate study has showed human nature is greedy???

Define legitimate. Studies are like statistics, & can be manipulated. I who you define as a legitimate source.

I haven't even seen one questionable one! I don't want your personal analysis I want to see a scientific fact since that seems to be the main opposition to a otherwise great ideology.

Great? If it is so great why have so many people risked their lives to escape "Marxist" countries? Why did the Soviet Union feel the need to use fence's & machine guns on their borders to keep people in, not out?
Why do Chinese workers risk their lives in cargo containers owned my criminal Chinese gangs to get to the US & Canada when their government will not grant them exit visa's to leave?