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Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516:1716:2243]

Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

well that is what it says in the second sentence

why are the clauses of the bill of rights declaratory and restrictive clauses on federal government powers, what are the clauses preventing the federal government from doing to keep them from abusing there powers?

would you agree it is not make any laws concerning the amendments?

The Constitution does not say that.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

The Constitution does not say that.

i did not ask you that, i asked you :

why are the clauses of the bill of rights declaratory and restrictive clauses on federal government powers, what are the clauses preventing the federal government from doing to keep them from abusing there powers?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Yes, I did. You merely, don't understand the concepts. What is your Point? We have Constitutions now.

My point is a simple one: if people claim that there were pre-existing rights in advance of state and federal constitutions - where exactly were these rights to be found?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

i did not ask you that, i asked you :

why are the clauses of the bill of rights declaratory and restrictive clauses on federal government powers, what are the clauses preventing the federal government from doing to keep them from abusing there powers?

Read what ever Amendment is in question and see what it says.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Read what ever Amendment is in question and see what it says.

again i asked

why?...... are the clauses of the bill of rights declaratory and restrictive clauses on federal government powers, or are you saying the preamble to the bill of rights has no meaning what so ever?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

again i asked

why?...... are the clauses of the bill of rights declaratory and restrictive clauses on federal government powers, or are you saying the preamble to the bill of rights has no meaning what so ever?

The Preamble to the BOR is not part of the Constitution and even if it was would not change any of the Amendments.

It thus is irrelevant except as a footnote in history that happened over 225 years ago.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

My point is a simple one: if people claim that there were pre-existing rights in advance of state and federal constitutions - where exactly were these rights to be found?

already answer for you.


you are found wrong again

rights are unwritten law, unwritten law is only recognized by government, as per the right to privacy is an example.

our government has never created 1 single right


Unwritten Law Law & Legal Definition

Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

In In re Estate of Spoya, 129 Mont. 83 (Mont. 1955), the court held that unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country. It has no certain repository, but is collected from the reports of the decisions of the courts and treatises of learned men


Unwritten LawUnwritten legal definition of Unwritten LawUnwritten Law

Unwritten rules, principles, and norms that have the effect and force of law though they have not been formally enacted by the government.
Most laws in America are written. The U.S. Code, the Code of Federal Regulations, and the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure are three examples of written laws that are frequently cited in federal court. Each state has a similar body of written laws. By contrast, unwritten law consists of those customs, traditions, practices, usages, and other maxims of human conduct that the government has recognized and enforced.

Unwritten law is most commonly found in primitive societies where illiteracy is prevalent. Because many residents in such societies cannot read or write, there is little point in publishing written laws to govern their conduct. Instead, societal disputes in primitive societies are resolved informally, through appeal to unwritten maxims of fairness or popularly accepted modes of behavior. Litigants present their claims orally in most primitive societies, and judges announce their decisions in the same fashion. The governing body in primitive societies typically enforces the useful traditions that are widely practiced in the community, while those practices that are novel or harmful fall into disuse or are discouraged.
Much of International Law is a form of primitive unwritten law. For centuries the Rules of War governing hostilities between belligerents consisted of a body of unwritten law. While some of these rules have been codified by international bodies such as the United Nations, many have not. For example, retaliatory reprisals against acts of Terrorism by a foreign government are still governed by unwritten customs in the international community. Each nation also retains discretion in formulating a response to the aggressive acts of a neighboring state.

In the United States, unwritten law takes on a variety of forms. In Constitutional Law the Supreme Court has ruled that the due process clause of the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution protects the right to privacy even though the word privacy is not mentioned in the written text of the Constitution. In Commercial Law the Uniform Commercial Code permits merchants to resolve legal disputes by introducing evidence of unwritten customs, practices, and usages that others in the same trade generally follow. The entire body of Common Law, comprising cases decided by judges on matters relating to torts and contracts, among other things, is said to reflect unwritten standards that have evolved over time. In each case, however, once a court, legislature, or other government body formally adopts a standard, principle, or Maxim in writing, it ceases to be an unwritten law.

unwritten law is as it says, its not put down on paper to look at.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

The Preamble to the BOR is not part of the Constitution and even if it was would not change any of the Amendments.

It thus is irrelevant except as a footnote in history that happened over 225 years ago.

i did not ask you that.....i asked you what is its interpretation, whats its purpose....please
 
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Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

already answer for you.




unwritten law is as it says, its not put down on paper to look at.

You give me theory. I do NOT want theory. I want the real world nuts and bolts practical location of where these actual rights could be found and we can see them being exercised and observed in practice before Americans had them in constitutions.

Nothing in there tells me that.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

i did not ask you that.....i asked you what is its interpretation, whats its purpose....please

And I keep telling you there is no purpose in it beyond what I have already stated of getting people to have confidence in their government. One has to wonder if because it has no real purpose is the reason why there was no move or impetus to make it part of the Constitution in the first place.

What so befuddles and confuses you so that you cannot understand that answer?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

You give me theory. I do NOT want theory. I want the real world nuts and bolts practical location of where these actual rights could be found and we can see them being exercised and observed in practice before Americans had them in constitutions.

Nothing in there tells me that.


you are incorrect.


Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

In In re Estate of Spoya, 129 Mont. 83 (Mont. 1955), the court held that unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country. It has no certain repository, but is collected from the reports of the decisions of the courts and treatises of learned men
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

you are incorrect.


Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

In In re Estate of Spoya, 129 Mont. 83 (Mont. 1955), the court held that unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country. It has no certain repository, but is collected from the reports of the decisions of the courts and treatises of learned men

And specifically in the real temporal world where people live where would I find these rights that were not written down or not in statue or not in Constitutions but were there as protected behaviors and being exercised just the same by real people who understood they had these rights?
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

And I keep telling you there is no purpose in it beyond what I have already stated of getting people to have confidence in their government. One has to wonder if because it has no real purpose is the reason why there was no move or impetus to make it part of the Constitution in the first place.

What so befuddles and confuses you so that you cannot understand that answer?

so in this thread also you state, the bill of rights preamble served no purpose, even though it is on every draft send out to the state governments, the copy the federal government has which is in the nation archives.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

And specifically in the real temporal world where people live where would I find these rights that were not written down or not in statue or not in Constitutions but were there as protected behaviors and being exercised just the same by real people who understood they had these rights?


you just said its only theory, well i answered you, its not theory.....as you can see by what the government has said about unwritten law.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

You did NOT answer the question to which you pretended to be responding to? Where exactly where these pre-existing rights that people had here before constitutions?

Speaking is a physical ability.
Could I open a gun at will? Not if I lived in a nation where that right was not recognized and they backed that up.


Lol. You weren't to happy about my response huh? I am not naive enough to pretend you didn't understand what I said. Anyway.

What do you mean, open a gun? I will respond as if you meant possession or using? Because that is all that makes sense.

In a "nation." There is your problem. That implies government. Again...you can naturally posses a firearm. All that is required is for there to be a firearm and you to pick it up. You don't need a government to recognize that ability in order for you to do it. You don't need to be told "it is ok" or that "you have the right." It is natural.

And the second? It is a limit on the governments power to interfere.

Again. A right is a limit on governmental authority. Not something granted to me. It is a limit. Not a privilege.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

you just said its only theory, well i answered you, its not theory.....as you can see by what the government has said about unwritten law.

For heavens sake do not mention common law as an example it would be way to difficult to comprehend.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

For heavens sake do not mention common law as an example it would be way to difficult to comprehend.

Haymarket has already stated months ago, America is not a common law system, he says its a constitutional law system, of course no such system exist.

View attachment 67209161
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Haymarket has already stated months ago, America is not a common law system, he says its a constitutional law system, of course no such system exist.

View attachment 67209161

It was sought to qualify the witness to give oral testimony of the laws of Yugoslavia under R.C.M. 1947, § 93-1001-14, reading: "The oral testimony of witnesses skilled therein is admissible as evidence of the unwritten law of a sister *455 state or foreign country, as are also printed and published books of reports of decisions of the courts of such state or country, or proved to be commonly admitted in such courts."
In Re Spoya's Estate :: 1955 :: Montana Supreme Court Decisions :: Montana Case Law :: Montana Law :: U.S. Law :: Justia

Can you find a better example than to allude to the unwritten law of Yugoslavia in the 50's? This case seems to be about inheritance, a far cry from what has clearly been recorded as law in the Bill of Rights.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

In Re Spoya's Estate :: 1955 :: Montana Supreme Court Decisions :: Montana Case Law :: Montana Law :: U.S. Law :: Justia

Can you find a better example than to allude to the unwritten law of Yugoslavia in the 50's? This case seems to be about inheritance, a far cry from what has clearly been recorded as law in the Bill of Rights.


In Re Spoya's Estate

Annotate this Case
282 P.2d 452 (1955)

In the Matter of the ESTATE of Joe SPOYA, Deceased. Arnold H. Olsen, Attorney General, Appellant, v. Rafo IVANCEVIC, Counsel General of Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, in his representative capacity as Attorney-in-fact for Rose Spoya, et al., Respondents.

No. 9266.

Supreme Court of Montana.

Submitted January 13, 1955.

Decided April 5, 1955.

Rehearing Denied April 18, 1955.

*453 Arnold H. Olsen, Atty. Gen., Mr. J.J. McCaffery, Jr., Sp. Asst. Atty. Gen., J. J. McCaffery Jr., Sp. Asst. Atty. Gen. argued orally, for appellant.

Michael E. Ruane, Anaconda, Peter A. Schwabe, Haas & Schwabe, Portland, Or., Michael E. Ruane, Anaconda, Peter A. Schwabe, Portland, Or., argued orally, for respondent.

ANGSTMAN, Justice.
 
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Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

In Re Spoya's Estate

Annotate this Case
282 P.2d 452 (1955)

In the Matter of the ESTATE of Joe SPOYA, Deceased. Arnold H. Olsen, Attorney General, Appellant, v. Rafo IVANCEVIC, Counsel General of Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, in his representative capacity as Attorney-in-fact for Rose Spoya, et al., Respondents.

No. 9266.

Supreme Court of Montana.

Submitted January 13, 1955.

Decided April 5, 1955.

Rehearing Denied April 18, 1955.

*453 Arnold H. Olsen, Atty. Gen., Mr. J.J. McCaffery, Jr., Sp. Asst. Atty. Gen., J. J. McCaffery Jr., Sp. Asst. Atty. Gen. argued orally, for appellant.

Michael E. Ruane, Anaconda, Peter A. Schwabe, Haas & Schwabe, Portland, Or., Michael E. Ruane, Anaconda, Peter A. Schwabe, Portland, Or., argued orally, for respondent.

ANGSTMAN, Justice.

Yes I'm aware that this case took place in Montana, in regards to Yugoslavian law pertaining to a Yugoslavian estate.

Repeating yourself is not really an answer to my question, is this an isolated example, or are there any other examples of unwritten law being accepted in a court? It seems highly unlikely that unwritten law would surpass the authority of written law. If a custom has been around long enough, wouldn't it have been written down? If that custom is not widely accepted, it is hardly custom. Maybe it's just the practice of a fringe group of individuals clinging on to a tradition left behind by the rest of society.

In my opinion, unwritten law refers more to case law which is not statute than what we imagined the framers might have thought.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

My point is a simple one: if people claim that there were pre-existing rights in advance of state and federal constitutions - where exactly were these rights to be found?

What are you looking for as evidence beyond what you have already been given, they are in the pubic domain.

You want a shoe box with a pile of papers stating what these laws are. Have you tried google?

Natural and legal rights are two types of rights. Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system (i.e., rights that can be modified, repealed, and restrained by human laws). Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable (i.e., rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws).

The idea that certain rights are natural or inalienable also has a history dating back at least to the Stoics of late Antiquity and Catholic law of the early Middle Ages, and descending through the Protestant Reformation and the Age of Enlightenment to today.

The Zoroastrian religion taught Iranians that citizens have an inalienable right to enlightened leadership and that the duty of subjects is not simply to obey wise kings but also to rise up against those who are wicked. Leaders are seen as representative of God on earth, but they deserve allegiance only as long as they have farr, a kind of divine blessing that they must earn by moral behavior.

Seneca the Younger wrote: It is a mistake to imagine that slavery pervades a man's whole being; the better part of him is exempt from it: the body indeed is subjected and in the power of a master, but the mind is independent, and indeed is so free and wild, that it cannot be restrained even by this prison of the body, wherein it is confined.~~Wiki

I'm reasonably sure if you go scratching in Sumerian texts you will find some reference and as far as writing goes that's the end of the line.
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Yes I'm aware that this case took place in Montana, in regards to Yugoslavian law pertaining to a Yugoslavian estate.

Repeating yourself is not really an answer to my question, is this an isolated example, or are there any other examples of unwritten law being accepted in a court? It seems highly unlikely that unwritten law would surpass the authority of written law. If a custom has been around long enough, wouldn't it have been written down? If that custom is not widely accepted, it is hardly custom. Maybe it's just the practice of a fringe group of individuals clinging on to a tradition left behind by the rest of society.

In my opinion, unwritten law refers more to case law which is not statute than what we imagined the framers might have thought.


Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, in his representative capacity as Attorney-in-fact for Rose Spoya

the case is being judged by the Supreme Court of Montana, so you need to stop with the Yugoslavian law,
 
Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia, in his representative capacity as Attorney-in-fact for Rose Spoya

the case is being judged by the Supreme Court of Montana, so you need to stop with the Yugoslavian law,

What are you talking about? This case is about foreign heirs.

The first contention of the state is that the court erred in overruling its objection to the filing of an appearance on the part of the consul general of Yugoslavia for the foreign heirs. The court did not err in this respect. There was filed without objections powers of attorney signed by all the foreign heirs appointing the consul general their attorney. The power of attorney was acknowledged before the president of the district court, an officer authorized to administer oaths.

*454 The consul general, Rafo Ivancevic, also testified as a witness. He testified that he is appearing in his official capacity as representative of the six nieces; that he has powers of attorney from them and that they all reside in Croatia. He testified without objection that Yugoslavia grants rights of inheritance to heirs or beneficiaries who are residents and citizens of the United States out of estates of persons who die in Yugoslavia and whose estates are in Yugoslavia. He testified that if the court were to decree the bequest to the nieces they would receive the entire bequest.
In Re Spoya's Estate :: 1955 :: Montana Supreme Court Decisions :: Montana Case Law :: Montana Law :: U.S. Law :: Justia
 
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Re: Why Gun Nuts Lie - I Know From Experience[W:516]

Unwritten law refers to the law based upon custom, usage, and judicial decisions. It is distinguished from the enactments of a legislature, orders or decrees in writing. Although an unwritten law is not enacted in the form of statute or ordinance, it has got legal sanction. An unwritten law need not be expressly evidenced in court decisions, but may be collected, gathered or implied there from under statute.

In In re Estate of Spoya, 129 Mont. 83 (Mont. 1955), the court held that unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country. It has no certain repository, but is collected from the reports of the decisions of the courts and treatises of learned men


R.C.M. 1947, § 93-1001-11, defines unwritten law as follows: "Unwritten law is the law not promulgated and recorded, as mentioned in section 93-1001-8, but which is, nevertheless, observed and administered in the courts of the country.

R.C.M = Revised Codes of Montana
 
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