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Why does NEWSMAX habitually allow guests to refer to our system as a “democracy”.

johnwk said:
I'll defer to our founders words which identify our system of government, as found in the Federalist papers and our very own Constitution.
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Why? Time did not stop when the founder's work was done. That system was much further away from democratic rule than what we have now.
1. There was no express prohibitions of who states could deprive of enfranchisement back then as there is now. The additions of the 14th, 15th, 19th, 24th, and 26th federalized and standardized a 'not to be excluded' list. At every turn we are effectively ensuring that minorities are deprived of direct political elective power.
2. Interpretations by SCOTUS of those amendments as well that due process clause, has promoted, rather than discouraged an expansive application of those amendments.
3. The 17th amendment broadens who we vote to include the US Senate as well as the House, a profoundly 'democratic' change to Federal govt unanticipated by those founders.
4. 33 States now bind presidential electors to vote consistent with the state popular vote. https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...aws-that-bind-votes-of-presidential-electors/ and SCOTUS has called such faithless elector laws constitutional and enforcible. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation...rs-must-back-their-states-popular-vote-winner That is a huge change from the 'founders' concept of the college.

Reformist progressive political movements changed the entire landscape in virtually all 50 states via initiative, referendum and recall elections (Delaware and Alabama are the least impacted) . Look at the chart entitled 'Direct democracy in U.S. states and Washington, D.C' The cumulative impact completely upended the elitist and oligarchic power structure in state, municipal and local governmental streams that fed into our federal govt.

See all the new democracy, founders did not!
 
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rahl said:
A republic is a subset of democracy
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Our system is unique and far removed from the extremes of "democracy".


Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they


"…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."

And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."



And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution declared:

“I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ___ The Letters of John and Abigail Adams


And during the Constitutional Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."


Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

.
 
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johnwk said:
Unlike a “democracy” where 51% of its participants rule, our Constitution guarantees a “Republican Form of Government” (See Article 4, Section 4) under which consent of the governed is required by three fourths (75%) of the participants (see Article 5), and not a mere majority as in a “democracy”, AKA mob-rule government.

John Adams, a prominent figure in the Revolutionary War and second President of the United States warns:

“Democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel…”.


So why does NEWSMAX allow guests, such as Dick Morris, to falsely reference to NEWSMAX’S viewers that our system is a “democracy”, and intentionally does so to suggest that “democracy” is a desirable form of government?



"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to selfishness;

From selfishness to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage.

_____ Author unknown


Has NEWMAX, in general, not yet learned that words have meaning?
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  • Democracy: In its purest form (direct democracy), the people directly vote on laws and policies. This was seen in ancient Athens, but it's impractical for large, modern nations.
  • Republic: Power is held by the people who elect representatives to make decisions on their behalf. These representatives govern according to a constitution that protects individual rights, even from the majority. The United States, for example, is accurately described as a constitutional federal republic.
In short, a republic is a form of government where the people's will is exercised through representatives bound by a constitution, while democracy can encompass both direct and representative forms of rule by the people.

A republic is a form of democracy. You just don't see a direct democracy anywhere.
 
BirdinHand said:
We are a republic in the form of a representative democracy. That is what article 4, section 4 of the Constitution guarantees to the states and obliges the federal govt to protect for the states.

That is what “Republican form of government” in the text means - representative democracy.

Article 5 has to do with amending the Constitution and holds the higher 2/3rds and 3/4ths levels for such.

@johnwk is just completely wrong in their first paragraph and thread failed right then. 🤷‍♀️
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But because he named himself after a fictional movie badass, we're supposed to just take his word for it that he knows more.
That's how badass avatars and handles work.
Look at all the snarling bears, cowboys, tigers, Punisher logos and eagles!
And the only thing more badass than a John Wick is a John Galt! 😆😆😆
 
Integrityrespec said:
  • Democracy: In its purest form (direct democracy), the people directly vote on laws and policies. This was seen in ancient Athens, but it's impractical for large, modern nations.
  • Republic: Power is held by the people who elect representatives to make decisions on their behalf. These representatives govern according to a constitution that protects individual rights, even from the majority. The United States, for example, is accurately described as a constitutional federal republic.
In short, a republic is a form of government where the people's will is exercised through representatives bound by a constitution, while democracy can encompass both direct and representative forms of rule by the people.

A republic is a form of democracy. You just don't see a direct democracy anywhere.
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I defer to our Founders views with regard to "democracy". Our system is unique and far removed from the extremes of "democracy"

Our system is democratic, but not a "democracy".
 
Grand Mal said:
No, it's about the useful idiots not understanding what 'republic' means.
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You mean like Joe Biden who made the defense of our democracy a central theme of his presidency and 2024 campaign, often framing it as a core mission. For example, on November 3, 2022, claimed Biden used the word "democracy" 37 times in a single 20-minute speech before the 2022 midterms.
 
trixare4kids said:
You mean like Joe Biden who made the defense of our democracy a central theme of his presidency and 2024 campaign, often framing it as a core mission. For example, on November 3, 2022, claimed Biden used the word "democracy" 37 times in a single 20-minute speech before the 2022 midterms.
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What the hell are you on about?
Do you know what 'republic' means?
 
Grand Mal said:
What the hell are you on about?
Do you know what 'republic' means?
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The above is the lamest post I've read from you.
Only idiots wouldn't know that the US is a representative republic which brings me back to my point.
Just agree that Biden didn't have an earthly clue when he called our country a democracy.
 
trixare4kids said:
The above is the lamest post I've read from you.

Just agree that Biden didn't have an earthly clue when he called our country a democracy.
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Who frigging cares about Obama in this thread. Do you even know what the topic is before you beak off?
 
trixare4kids said:
Lol, who mentioned Obama's name. I didn't.
Having a bad night?
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Fine. Biden. Who frigging cares that you disagree with Biden about the US being a democracy? Obviously the USA is a democracy. Anyone who was schooled to understand what democracy and republic mean wouldn't even allow there to be a question about it.
 
Grand Mal said:
Fine. Biden. Who frigging cares that you disagree with Biden about the US being a democracy? Obviously the USA is a democracy. Anyone who was schooled to understand what democracy and republic mean wouldn't even allow there to be a question about it.
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Seems you have indicated that you have not been schooled by asserting ". . . the USA is a democracy." I suggest you study our founders concerning the distinction between a republic and a democracy.

Our system is unique and far removed from the extremes of "democracy"

Our system is democratic, but not a "democracy".
 
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Greenbeard said:
dem·o·crat·ic
/ˌdeməˈkradik/
adjective
1. relating to or supporting democracy or its principles.
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"relating to" but not an actual democracy
 
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johnwk said:
I defer to our Founders views with regard to "democracy". Our system is unique and far removed from the extremes of "democracy"

Our system is democratic, but not a "democracy".
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Why do you insist on ultra-literalism when almost everyone understands that the term "democracy" refers to a republic with representative democracy in the form of local and national elections?
There's a reason: Direct democracy has not been tried anywhere in the world on a national level in 2500 years, last time was Athens, and it didn't work, for all the same the reasons put forth by the founders. They talked about it, they debated it, they wrote about it and they warned against it.
But still, given all of that, they had no issue with representative democracy in elections.

And since that IS the only reliable form still in use, people just say "democracy" and it is understood, just as the word "YOU" is understood when one sees a STOP SIGN: "YOU STOP",
or just as when one says "TELEVISION", they know it refers to electronic television, because the mechanical system from John Logie Baird was impractical and didn't really work beyond being a novelty.

When people say they are FILMING something, unless it's a multi-million dollar feature length movie shot on 35mm, everyone understands that it usually refers to "shooting a moving image by way of digital cinematography onto a solid state memory card" because 8, Super8 and 16mm have not been in use for consumer movies for longer than most here have been alive and videotape is more or less obsolete now too.

In the turn of the century (1900's) plenty of vehicles still had wood spoke wheels and solid rubber tires.
Once vehicle speeds got beyond twenty miles per hour however, the problem with solid tires became rather obvious and the PNEUMATIC tire was born.
And for years people kept talking about PNEUMATIC TYRES until folks stopped seeing the solid kind and eventually folks just said "tires" and even dropped The King's English spelling with the letter "y" in it.

People still talk about "dialing" a phone number despite the fact that the number of rotary dial landline phones still in use is approaching zero.

Imagine the look on people's faces if you come clunking into a gas station with a flat and request a "pneumatic tire".
The mechanic will scratch their head and give you a funny look.

Now, if you don't mind, I'll stop typing on my "electronic computer" for a little while and let others occupy the bandwidth in the hopes that the hubbub about referring to our system as a democracy settles down to a dull roar.

Antiquecomputer1.webp1750305407049.webp1750305517415.webp
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Why do you insist on ultra-literalism when almost everyone understands that the term "democracy" refers to a republic with representative democracy in the form of local and national elections?
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Why are you so eager to refer to our system as a "democracy" when our Founders where not fond of Democracy and created a unique system far removed from the extremes of democracy?
 
johnwk said:
Our system is unique and far removed from the extremes of "democracy".


Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they


"…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."

And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."



And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution declared:

“I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ___ The Letters of John and Abigail Adams


And during the Constitutional Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."


Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

.
Click to expand...
A republic is a subset of democracy.
 
Integrityrespec said:
  • Democracy: In its purest form (direct democracy), the people directly vote on laws and policies. This was seen in ancient Athens, but it's impractical for large, modern nations.
  • Republic: Power is held by the people who elect representatives to make decisions on their behalf. These representatives govern according to a constitution that protects individual rights, even from the majority. The United States, for example, is accurately described as a constitutional federal republic.
In short, a republic is a form of government where the people's will is exercised through representatives bound by a constitution, while democracy can encompass both direct and representative forms of rule by the people.

A republic is a form of democracy. You just don't see a direct democracy anywhere.
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You do, in state governments. It’s why this debate is always weird. We are both a democracy and a republic.
 
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