Why does NEWSMAX habitually allow guests to refer to our system as a “democracy”.

[Simon W. Moon]

Why are you so eager to refer to our system as a "democracy" when our Founders where not fond of Democracy and created a unique system far removed from the extremes of democracy?

Why are you so eager to present cherry picked quotes taken out of context?

Are they the only argument you have?

 

[johnwk]

Why are you so eager to present cherry picked quotes taken out of context?

Are they the only argument you have?

When truth and documented facts are presented which confirm you are wrong, simply dismiss them as being cherry picked.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

When truth and documented facts are presented which confirm you are wrong, simply dismiss them as being cherry picked.

I presented a link to the context and offered a brief explanation.

.

 

[johnwk]

I presented a link to the context and offered a brief explanation.

.

Non of which refuted what I posted.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Non of which refuted what I posted.

it did refute the conclusions you were trying to make with the cherry picked quotes

You tried to make it out like the discussion of the pros & cons was only a discussion of how awful democracy is

You try to make it out like the FF were as ignorant of the meaning of words and how to use dictionaries as you pretend to be.

you're grinding your axe instead of seeking answers

 

[rahl]

When truth and documented facts are presented which confirm you are wrong, simply dismiss them as being cherry picked.

 

[johnwk]

it did refute the conclusions you were trying to make with the cherry picked quotes

The only problem with your comment is, you are unable to refute the number of "cherries" you mention:

I suggest you take some time and do some research concerning our Founder's (plural) view on "democracy":

Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they


"…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."



And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."


And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution declared:

“I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ___ The Letters of John and Abigail Adams

Also during the Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."


Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

The only problem with your comment is, you are unable to refute the number of "cherries" you mention:

I suggest you take some time and do some research concerning our Founder's (plural) view on "democracy":

Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they


"…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."



And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."


And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution declared:

“I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ___ The Letters of John and Abigail Adams

Also during the Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."


Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

Cherry picking quotes is not a defense against the charge of cherry picking quotes

 

[ashurbanipal]

Unlike a “democracy” where 51% of its participants rule, our Constitution guarantees a “Republican Form of Government” (See Article 4, Section 4) under which consent of the governed is required by three fourths (75%) of the participants (see Article 5), and not a mere majority as in a “democracy”, AKA mob-rule government.

John Adams, a prominent figure in the Revolutionary War and second President of the United States warns:

“Democracy will envy all, contend with all, endeavor to pull down all; and when by chance it happens to get the upper hand for a short time, it will be revengeful, bloody, and cruel…”.


So why does NEWSMAX allow guests, such as Dick Morris, to falsely reference to NEWSMAX’S viewers that our system is a “democracy”, and intentionally does so to suggest that “democracy” is a desirable form of government?



"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to selfishness;

From selfishness to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage.

_____ Author unknown


Has NEWMAX, in general, not yet learned that words have meaning?

“Democacy” is from the Greek:

Demos=people
Kratos=power

The people are the primary source of power. So long as we vote for representatives and in referendums, we are a democracy.

 

[ashurbanipal]

The only problem with your comment is, you are unable to refute the number of "cherries" you mention:

I suggest you take some time and do some research concerning our Founder's (plural) view on "democracy":

Madison, in Federalist No. 10 says in reference to “democracy” they


"…have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of government, have erroneously supposed that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions."



And during the Convention which framed our federal Constitution, Elbridge Gerry and Roger Sherman, delegates from Massachusetts and Connecticut, urged the Convention to create a system which would eliminate "the evils we experience," saying that those "evils . . .flow from the excess of democracy..."


And Samuel Adams, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and favoring the new Constitution declared:

“I do not say that democracy has been more pernicious on the whole, and in the long run, than monarchy or aristocracy. Democracy has never been and never can be so durable as aristocracy or monarchy; but while it lasts, it is more bloody than either. … Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." ___ The Letters of John and Abigail Adams

Also during the Convention, Hamilton stated: "We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy."

And then there was Benjamin Franklin, who informed a crowd when exiting the Convention as to what system of government they created, he responded by saying "A republic, if you can keep it."


Democracy, or majority rule vote, as the Founding Fathers well knew, whether that majority rule is practiced directly by the people or by elected representatives, if not restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees in which the unalienable rights of mankind are put beyond the reach of political majorities, have proven throughout history to eventually result in nothing less than an unbridled mob rule system susceptible to the wants and passions of a political majority imposing its will upon those who may be outvoted, and would result in the subjugation of unalienable rights, and especially rights associated with property ownership.

Why can’t we be a democracy restrained by specific limitations and particular guarantees of rights? Seems to me that’s what we are, and it’s still a democracy.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

There is not 'TRICKY BIT".

Our Founders intentionally created a "Republican form of Government" as opposed to a "democracy", and Federalist 10 identifies the difference.

You seem to be operating under the misconception that the only form of democracy is a direct democracy like ancient Greece.

We are a constitutional Republic, which is a type of democracy. Your argument is like saying, "I don't drive an automobile, I drive a sedan."

 

[johnwk]

You seem to be operating under the misconception that the only form of democracy is a direct democracy like ancient Greece.

Nan. I'm operating under the words of our Constitution, and Madison's description of a "democracy" vs a "republic".


The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion. . . ." ___ Article 4, Section 4, United States Constitution.

And, James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 10 notes:

“A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place. . . The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: First, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; Secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.”


James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 14 goes on to further elaborate:

“It is, that in a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.”

 

[Hannu]

Nan. I'm operating under the words of our Constitution, and Madison's description of a "democracy" vs a "republic".


The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion. . . ." ___ Article 4, Section 4, United States Constitution.

And, James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 10 notes:

“A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place. . . The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: First, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; Secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.”


James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 14 goes on to further elaborate:

“It is, that in a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.”

... And that means exactly what the previous poster said - that you are operating under the misconception that ancient Greek type direct democracy is the only form of democracy. Representative democracy with specific protections against "mob rule" is general norm in modern democracies.
This is why for example in a working democracy it is not possible to take away the rights of minority ethnic group by the 51% majority ethnic group - it is important to have specific protections against that kind of majority mob rule. In a democratic country also unidentified police agents, whom people can't be sure of whether they are legal or fake personnel, don't have the rights to pick and arrest people. It is important to protect people's rights against this type of abuse of power.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Nan. I'm operating under the words of our Constitution, and Madison's description of a "democracy" vs a "republic".


The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion. . . ." ___ Article 4, Section 4, United States Constitution.

And, James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 10 notes:

“A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place. . . The two great points of difference between a democracy and a republic are: First, the delegation of the government, in the latter, to a small number of citizens elected by the rest; Secondly, the greater number of citizens, and greater sphere of country, over which the latter may be extended.”


James Madison in Federalist Paper No. 14 goes on to further elaborate:

“It is, that in a democracy, the people meet and exercise the government in person; in a republic, they assemble and administer it by their representatives and agents. A democracy, consequently, will be confined to a small spot. A republic may be extended over a large region.”

So per Madison, it’s not a democracy because people are elected…. Madison is sounding like an idiot here.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

So per Madison, it’s not a democracy because people are elected…. Madison is sounding like an idiot here.

Almost a hundred posts later and our OP is not only allergic to facts, he's allergic to history unless it is sufficiently revisionist and specifics are excised to suit an alternate narrative.
By the way, this is also Oath Keeper and Constitutional Sheriffs Association SOP, too.



The objections the founders had was to direct democracy.
Voting and elections were written INTO the Constitution in order to ensure any nod to democracy would be of the representative variety.
Our bicameral legislature was specifically designed to support the election of representatives.
And that has been the standard form of democracy under constitutional republics ever since.
The form the founders objected to the most was the monarchy model.
We did not launch a revolution against democracy, we launched it against monarchy.

Election of representative government was the model by which government would be accountable to the people, because now people were voters.
In essence, the OP is basically holding hands over their ears and yelling "LA LA LA LA LA LA LA I can't HEEEEEAAARRRR YOU!!!!!"
while also holding their eyes shut as hard as they can because he thinks if his eyes are closed, he is invisible.



It does not take ninety posts to make it any clearer, this is not a complex issue, it's just an OP
who refuses to acknowledge facts.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Almost a hundred posts later and our OP is not only allergic to facts, he's allergic to history unless it is sufficiently revisionist and specifics are excised to suit an alternate narrative.
By the way, this is also Oath Keeper and Constitutional Sheriffs Association SOP, too.

View attachment 67576759

The objections the founders had was to direct democracy.
Voting and elections were written INTO the Constitution in order to ensure any nod to democracy would be of the representative variety.
Our bicameral legislature was specifically designed to support the election of representatives.
And that has been the standard form of democracy under constitutional republics ever since.
The form the founders objected to the most was the monarchy model.
We did not launch a revolution against democracy, we launched it against monarchy.

Election of representative government was the model by which government would be accountable to the people, because now people were voters.

Yeah. At this point the whole thing is just stupid and kind of annoying. It’s obvious we are a representative democracy and any claims to the contrary just reflect poorly on the person making the claim.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

This entire thread is based on heavily revisionist interpretations of history that current reactionary types have
poured billions into fluffing to Uncle Milty proportions in homage to anti-democracy folks in MAGA land.
Oh and, because we are dealing with people who have avatars like John Wick, you'd better goddamn well listen to them and
not argue or else, because John Wick is a total badass!
Such aristocratic elite enforcers are not required to listen to facts.
A real man takes bold action and listens later.



We are all very lucky he's not also John Galt!


Because if he was both John Wick AND John Galt, facts wouldn't have an ice cube's chance in Hell!
I think appeasement is the best approach, do not question the badassery and wisdom of an elite UberMensch of the Master Race.



I mean, these folks have a valid beef.
Democracy types from the reality based community stole their car and killed their puppy.

 

[johnwk]

This entire thread is based on heavily revisionist interpretations of history

You just made that up.

The thread is based on the words of our Constitution and a statement of one of our prominent Founders SOURCE

Why did you find it necessary to make up crap?

 

[Lycanthrope]