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Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Actually, the separation of the Colonies from the Empire caused them to take a serious look at how they were treating their overseas English colonies.

Really? To which British Ministry are you referring? What specific legislation?

Actually, there would have. It would have been simply the American theater of the Napoleonic Wars. With fighting between the British colonials on one side, and the French based out of Florida and Louisiana on the other.

There were no French bases in Florida and Louisiana. The French presence in North America ceased with the Treaty of Paris at the conclusion of the French & Indian War in 1763. The lands sold by France in the Louisiana purchase were only re-acquired from Spain 6 months prior to their sale to the US.

Ahhhh, that old nonsense again. There was no "Ethnic Cleansing", there was no "Genocide". Why do people seem to insist that only the Indians who stayed on Reservations and now run casinos are the only ones that count?

We are among you, we live among you. There are more Indians than ever before. And most of the bloodiest chapters started by "my side". Even the Potawatomie tribes have plenty of blood on their hands from those incidents. Most off the tribes got along fairly well with the rest of the country.

Sheer historical ignorance.... I suggest you read up on the Trail of Tears and all of the Indian Wars waged by the United States. I'm not suggesting that Canada's record was spotless where it came to indigenous people, but it was miles ahead of our's.

*snort*

No, it likely would have gone on for much longer. Remember, most of North America was still controlled by France, Spain, and Russia. The English section was actually rather small. The Eastern Coast from Georgia to Canada, then West through mostly empty land.

There would not be any "massive nation with Canada" in that version of history, that is purely some kind of sick fantasy. France would never have sold Louisiana, Span or Mexico would have held onto their territories more tightly. Russia would never have sold Alaska.

No, the "United States of England" or whatever it would be called would be still locked more than likely to the land East of the Appalachian Mountains, the Mississippi at most. And for the next 200 years every little European War would have bleed over into the mostly empty land of North America. French Colonials invading the English, and the reverse as well. In fact, a continued Napoleonic Wars could really have changed the landscape in North America.

You seem to forget that any single change in history sends ripples everywhere. In fact, without a successful American Revolution there is also likely no French Revolution. No Napoleonic Dynasty, North America remains split up between 4 competing Empires. And there was no way short of conquest that one was going to take over the land of the other. That only happened with France and Russia because neither nation saw the United States as a threat. They were a land of tinkers and traders, with lots of natural resources but not much of a military. And as a nation of commerce, willing to purchase land as opposed to try and conquer it.

Interesting concept though. TO bad it completely fails to take into account real history.

We can debate "what if's" until the cows come home. However, that being said, I think the French Revolution was inevitable... it may not have happened as it did had the American Revolution not been successful, but the rot with the ancien régime was already well-advanced by the time Louis XVI assumed the throne in 1774. What can't be debated is that the French presence in North America was effectively ended at the conclusion of the French & Indian War and revolution or no, they would not have been a factor in the expansion of the British North American territorial expansion. Spain still had significant territorial possessions, but it suffered from the same internal rot that afflicted France, and it's American empire was on the precipice. All it would have take was one good shove to make it fold.

I think we could have easily conquered the lands we purchased from Napoleon, and perhaps even a good portion of the lands possessed by Spain. Neither France nor Spain were in any position to challenge British Naval supremacy, and therefore their overseas colonies could not be supplied in time of war.

As for Alaska, Russia only sold it to the US out of fear that the British would have easily seized it in the event of war. It's hard to argue with the logic. A unified British North America would have been an unchallengeable force on the continent.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

The literal reading of the Constitution is regarding the militia. The literal reading of the Second Amendment is regarding an absolute restriction on the federal government and a state defending itself from a tyrannical federal government with individually armed citizens

Really? Where exactly is this "phantom militia" provision defined within the Constitution? The only militia reference I can find is the one Congress is empowered to call up to suppress insurrections.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Really? Where exactly is this "phantom militia" provision defined within the Constitution? The only militia reference I can find is the one Congress is empowered to call up to suppress insurrections.

Right here:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.​
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Really? To which British Ministry are you referring? What specific legislation?



There were no French bases in Florida and Louisiana. The French presence in North America ceased with the Treaty of Paris at the conclusion of the French & Indian War in 1763. The lands sold by France in the Louisiana purchase were only re-acquired from Spain 6 months prior to their sale to the US.



Sheer historical ignorance.... I suggest you read up on the Trail of Tears and all of the Indian Wars waged by the United States. I'm not suggesting that Canada's record was spotless where it came to indigenous people, but it was miles ahead of our's.



We can debate "what if's" until the cows come home. However, that being said, I think the French Revolution was inevitable... it may not have happened as it did had the American Revolution not been successful, but the rot with the ancien régime was already well-advanced by the time Louis XVI assumed the throne in 1774. What can't be debated is that the French presence in North America was effectively ended at the conclusion of the French & Indian War and revolution or no, they would not have been a factor in the expansion of the British North American territorial expansion. Spain still had significant territorial possessions, but it suffered from the same internal rot that afflicted France, and it's American empire was on the precipice. All it would have take was one good shove to make it fold.

I think we could have easily conquered the lands we purchased from Napoleon, and perhaps even a good portion of the lands possessed by Spain. Neither France nor Spain were in any position to challenge British Naval supremacy, and therefore their overseas colonies could not be supplied in time of war.

As for Alaska, Russia only sold it to the US out of fear that the British would have easily seized it in the event of war. It's hard to argue with the logic. A unified British North America would have been an unchallengeable force on the continent.

France controlled Louisiana in 1802-1803.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Where does intermediate scrutiny come from and what it its role in the first ten amendments that were absolute restrictions on the federal govenment and its role in the federal judiciary being barred from jurisdiction over the first ten amendments?

On what do you base this assumption? No right is an absolute - they all have reasonable limitations.... the right to keep and bear arms is even more limited because of the prefatory clause.

When the Congress passes necessary and proper laws to execute it's Constitutional powers, it's inevitable that sooner or later these laws are going to come into conflict with individual interests. Judicial review is the means by which the Courts revolve these conflicts. The principle is as old as Marbury v. Madison.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Right here:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.​

Without an alternative definition of that militia, why is it so hard for you to accept that it describes the same militia described in Article I, Section 8?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Really? Where exactly is this "phantom militia" provision defined within the Constitution? The only militia reference I can find is the one Congress is empowered to call up to suppress insurrections.

I am curious-what causes people like you to engage in such sophistry trying to support the power of the government to ban AR 15s. For those of us who own them, our arguments are patent and easily understood. For those who want to ban them, what is your real motivation?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Without an alternative definition of that militia, why is it so hard for you to accept that it describes the same militia described in Article I, Section 8?

which has NOTHING to do with the rights of private citizens-a right that is recognized by the 2nd but which the founders believed existed since the dawn of time
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I am curious-what causes people like you to engage in such sophistry trying to support the power of the government to ban AR 15s. For those of us who own them, our arguments are patent and easily understood. For those who want to ban them, what is your real motivation?

It's not just AR-15's... I'd like to see the same restrictions put on all semi-auto rifles that we presently put on full-auto rifles. The proliferation of these weapons increases the fatality level of mass shootings while adding nothing to our ability to hunt or defend ourselves. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be in civilian hands. All the tin cans blasted up wannabe weekend warriors and ammosexuals aren't worth the life of a single child or police officer or any other victim of these senseless crimes.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

It's not just AR-15's... I'd like to see the same restrictions put on all semi-auto rifles that we presently put on full-auto rifles. The proliferation of these weapons increases the fatality level of mass shootings while adding nothing to our ability to hunt or defend ourselves. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be in civilian hands. All the tin cans blasted up wannabe weekend warriors and ammosexuals aren't worth the life of a single child or police officer or any other victim of these senseless crimes.

In the last twenty years, how many people have been killed in a mass shooting with an "assault weapon"?

How many have been murdered over that same time period with water?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

which has NOTHING to do with the rights of private citizens-a right that is recognized by the 2nd but which the founders believed existed since the dawn of time

But that has never been held to be a right "to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

On what do you base this assumption? No right is an absolute - they all have reasonable limitations.... the right to keep and bear arms is even more limited because of the prefatory clause.

When the Congress passes necessary and proper laws to execute it's Constitutional powers, it's inevitable that sooner or later these laws are going to come into conflict with individual interests. Judicial review is the means by which the Courts revolve these conflicts. The principle is as old as Marbury v. Madison.

There is nothing in your post that addressed anything in my post.

Is Marbury the oldest?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

It's not just AR-15's... I'd like to see the same restrictions put on all semi-auto rifles that we presently put on full-auto rifles. The proliferation of these weapons increases the fatality level of mass shootings while adding nothing to our ability to hunt or defend ourselves. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be in civilian hands. All the tin cans blasted up wannabe weekend warriors and ammosexuals aren't worth the life of a single child or police officer or any other victim of these senseless crimes.


if those weapons do not have any additional value to self defense then why are so many police departments issuing them. and you never answered my question. what causes you to want to prevent honest Americans from having eh same defensive weapons as civilian cops? do you value the lives of government agents more than their employers? Do you live in an area where the authorities don't trust you to own such weapons?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

But that has never been held to be a right "to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose."

you seem to not understand the concept of rights

unlimited rights exist until a government was properly delegated the power to limit the right.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Without an alternative definition of that militia, why is it so hard for you to accept that it describes the same militia described in Article I, Section 8?

Why would an absolute restriction on the federal government and a protected right for a state to defend itself against a tyrannical federal government be the same militia?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

It's not just AR-15's... I'd like to see the same restrictions put on all semi-auto rifles that we presently put on full-auto rifles. The proliferation of these weapons increases the fatality level of mass shootings while adding nothing to our ability to hunt or defend ourselves. There is no reason whatsoever for them to be in civilian hands. All the tin cans blasted up wannabe weekend warriors and ammosexuals aren't worth the life of a single child or police officer or any other victim of these senseless crimes.

Considering there are more people murdered each year with hammers than all rifles combined, what do you propose we do with assault hammers?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Considering there are more people murdered each year with hammers than all rifles combined, what do you propose we do with assault hammers?

Banhammer?
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

In the last twenty years, how many people have been killed in a mass shooting with an "assault weapon"?

How many have been murdered over that same time period with water?

If semi-auto rifles weren't any more deadly than any other form of firearm, I wouldn't be here arguing against them. I'm a gun-owner myself. I have been pretty much all of my life. The last thing I'd ever want to see is a ban on all firearms. But I've also seen what these types of guns can do... and I know what they were designed to do. There's no reason whatsoever to have them on the streets.

Mass shootings with a semi-auto rifle have 24% higher fatalities... 67% higher wounded per incident. For what? So a bunch of ying-yangs can go out and play weekend warrior and arm up to overthrow the gub'mint? Screw that.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

The six months that Napoleon nominally held Louisiana doesn't really count as a "presence". There were no French forces nor French bases in North America after 1763.

I am just using historical facts.
 
Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

To do what, exactly? Try and score cheap points?

Considering that the Lousiana Purchase was a treaty regarding national defense, my response was more than cheap points.
 
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