Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243, 2001]

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Judicial activism.

I disagree. It seems to me that there's nothing more activist than an approach that selectively ignores whole sections of the Constitution, such as the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment and the entire Ninth Amendment.

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Are you seriously suggesting that the right to privacy only exists within the context of the Fourth Amendment?

Yes. There are no "rights to" in the first ten amendments. A "right to" is a positive right from the government such as "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries.”

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I disagree. It seems to me that there's nothing more activist than an approach that selectively ignores whole sections of the Constitution, such as the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment and the entire Ninth Amendment.

Judicial activism is finding rights that are so encrypted that a special decoder ring is needed by the Supreme Court to find them.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

It is irrelevant. There is no power in Article I over explicit or implicit rights. That was the Federalist's argument against a declaration of rights.

Really? Because I've got to think the Necessary and Proper clause gives Congress a lot of power. That's not to say that it has unlimited power to run roughshod over individual rights - but when necessary and proper legislation comes into conflict with an individual right, it then becomes incumbent on the Judiciary to decide the issue.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I disagree. It seems to me that there's nothing more activist than an approach that selectively ignores whole sections of the Constitution, such as the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment and the entire Ninth Amendment.

so tell us-you are claiming that the prefatory clause of the second amendment somehow limits recognition of the natural right the founders believed existed since the dawn of time?

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Really? Because I've got to think the Necessary and Proper clause gives Congress a lot of power. That's not to say that it has unlimited power to run roughshod over individual rights - but when necessary and proper legislation comes into conflict with an individual right, it then becomes incumbent on the Judiciary to decide the issue.

It gives Congress zero power other than to make laws to carry out their enumerated powers. The author of the clause, James Wilson, made that point very clear. There is no point in listed enumerated powers to restrain the government, then add a clause giving the government plenary powers not enumerated.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Judicial activism is finding rights that are so encrypted that a special decoder ring is needed by the Supreme Court to find them.

Be that as it may, a literalist interpretation of the Ninth Amendment must allow for the implicit existence of unenumerated rights that cannot be denied or disparaged.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Really? Because I've got to think the Necessary and Proper clause gives Congress a lot of power. That's not to say that it has unlimited power to run roughshod over individual rights - but when necessary and proper legislation comes into conflict with an individual right, it then becomes incumbent on the Judiciary to decide the issue.

Not when its a right recognized and guaranteed in the bill of rights. BTW what sort of evidence do you have for this claim> have you a law degree or have you taught or lectured in a law school? much of what you are saying is stuff i never heard before (and my active law license is now 33.5 years old )

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Be that as it may, a literalist interpretation of the Ninth Amendment must allow for the implicit existence of unenumerated rights that cannot be denied or disparaged.

before Heller, many constitutional experts who were gun rights advocates were pushing the ninth amendment

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Be that as it may, a literalist interpretation of the Ninth Amendment must allow for the implicit existence of unenumerated rights that cannot be denied or disparaged.

The plain language does not support that and neither does the intent.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

so tell us-you are claiming that the prefatory clause of the second amendment somehow limits recognition of the natural right the founders believed existed since the dawn of time?

Absolutely. That's why they fenced it in. They wanted to make sure the right continued to exist, but they also wanted to make sure it existed within certain limits.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Not when its a right recognized and guaranteed in the bill of rights. BTW what sort of evidence do you have for this claim> have you a law degree or have you taught or lectured in a law school? much of what you are saying is stuff i never heard before (and my active law license is now 33.5 years old )

I'm an original thinker.

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Absolutely. That's why they fenced it in. They wanted to make sure the right continued to exist, but they also wanted to make sure it existed within certain limits.

They? Who are "they" and where are their statements regarding that?

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

before Heller, many constitutional experts who were gun rights advocates were pushing the ninth amendment

Geez... I wonder why it was that they found the Second Amendment inadequate for their purposes?

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

The plain language does not support that and neither does the intent.

*LOL* You just denied that the Ninth Amendment was a potential source of implied rights, when that's it's whole raison d'etre!... So I question your assertion where it comes to a plain language or intent interpretation.

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

*LOL* You just denied that the Ninth Amendment was a potential source of implied rights, when that's it's whole raison d'etre!... So I question your assertion where it comes to a plain language or intent interpretation.

I denied it because the Ninth Amendment is not about rights and neither are the other nine amendments. They are all about restrictions on the federal government. You can question it, but you cannot produce any historical evidence to support your view.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I denied it because the Ninth Amendment is not about rights and neither are the other nine amendments. They are all about restrictions on the federal government. You can question it, but you cannot produce any historical evidence to support your view.

Rights are inalienable, Tennyson... they are an independent source of protection by which all men are endowed by their Creator. I suggest you read the Declaration of Independence.

To suggest that they can only exist by limiting the power of the Government is ludicrous.

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Rights are inalienable, Tennyson... they are an independent source of protection by which all men are endowed by their Creator. I suggest you read the Declaration of Independence.

To suggest that they can only exist by limiting the power of the Government is ludicrous.

I suggest you start by reading the Preamble to the first ten amendments:

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.​

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Absolutely. That's why they fenced it in. They wanted to make sure the right continued to exist, but they also wanted to make sure it existed within certain limits.

uh there is absolutely no support of that whatsoever. The federalists didn't even think the second was needed because the federal government was never given any power to restrict firearms ownership or usage by private citizens. Since the right was not DEPENDENT on the constitution (see Cruikshank) it cannot be limited by the bill of rights

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I'm an original thinker.

that's cute but what you are really saying is you don't like what the second amendment really says and means and you worked backwards to get it to support your views. I've been doing this a long time and have had the advantage of having face to face discussions with some of the really top legal scholars in the USA and I pretty much know BS when I read it

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

Geez... I wonder why it was that they found the Second Amendment inadequate for their purposes?

because of clowns like the FDR administration and later judges like the four dissenters in Heller-people who find gun restrictions more important than honestly interpreting the second amendment

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

I suggest you start by reading the Preamble to the first ten amendments:

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.​

What's your point? I never denied that the Bill of Rights placed restrictions on the government. Hell, the first words of the First Amendment are "Congress shall make no law...". But, as the preamble suggests, the Bill of Rights is also declaratory.... witness the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment, and the Sixth, Seventh, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

uh there is absolutely no support of that whatsoever. The federalists didn't even think the second was needed because the federal government was never given any power to restrict firearms ownership or usage by private citizens. Since the right was not DEPENDENT on the constitution (see Cruikshank) it cannot be limited by the bill of rights

Article I, Section 8.... organization and discipline of the militia plus the necessary and proper clause.

It's a simple hurdle to overcome, Turtle... all you've got to do is explain why the prefatory exists if the right to keep and bear arms has the same meaning with it as it does without it... and do so in a way that writes it off as so many "wasted words" you choose to ignore.

 

[Cordelier]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

that's cute but what you are really saying is you don't like what the second amendment really says and means and you worked backwards to get it to support your views. I've been doing this a long time and have had the advantage of having face to face discussions with some of the really top legal scholars in the USA and I pretty much know BS when I read it

I'm not really interested in your fantasy life. I'm here to debate.

 

[Tennyson]

Re: Why do you "need" an AR 15? [W243]

What's your point? I never denied that the Bill of Rights placed restrictions on the government. Hell, the first words of the First Amendment are "Congress shall make no law...". But, as the preamble suggests, the Bill of Rights is also declaratory.... witness the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment, and the Sixth, Seventh, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments.

All of the amendments are declaratory and restrictive clauses. My point is your position is that the first ten amendments are rights to and conferred. Neither are correct.