Why do we have veterans' hospitals?

[Wiggen]

If our VA system is so good, then why is anyone complaining, and why are tea party types trying to create a scandal?

Because people fall through the cracks. Because it's a big organization that is underfunded. Because Republicans see this as an opportunity to embarrass the Democrats. Hey, it isn't me saying VA care is good. It's the veterans themselves. If you can find a contrary survey, please post it.

 

[Wiggen]

Private sector hospitals are too expensive.....

I believe, while receiving my wonderful American education [not kidding - it was miles ahead of Ontario at the time] I heard that the VA program began after the Civil war under another initiative, and then expanded after WWI.

But, you are right, VA hospitals are a rather strange way to do it. Then, with my experience with government and bureaucracy, the VA is probably like so many aging bureaucracies and a general waste of money providing at best mediocre service

Except veterans disagree with you.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Think about it. Why do we have veterans' hospitals? Are not private sector hospitals good enough? Why not simply enroll veterans in the AHA? Depending on a means test, all veterans could be entitled to an "X" subsidy, resulting in many of them receiving it completely free.

Why not?

Unfortunately, politics/special interests often get in the way of good cost saving plans. As of now, I believe government run plans under things such as Medicare and VA get saving that the private sector blocks for the rest of us. For instance, FY 2012, VA saved more than $161 million as a result of a National Pharmacy Efficiency Plan. In a perfect world, all of us should get this kind of benefit and we wouldn't need special government run programs for the elderly or veterans. Cost cutting would be for the whole population.

 

[CalGun]

FAIL. I said the government could run the VA better then private if it wanted too. I never said what you wrote or anything close to it.

So you believe that government ran healthcare, otherwise known as socialized healthcare, can be better than private sector healthcare.

Interesting. I never pegged you for a socialist.

 

[Manc Skipper]

No, don't have a link . Just my own personal experience of seeing the price tag the military paid for items and also during my time as a steelworker seeing the price tag for any steel used in a government building

So who are these Americans who mercilessly rip off their government (and therefore their countrymen) without fear of prosecution?

 

[MaggieD]

So society should pay for my individual choice to live 3 hrs from the nearest medical facility ? Seriously ?

Do you think that veterans use VA hospitals from cradle to grave? They go to VA hospitals when they're broke. That doesn't usually happen in some kind of grand plan. You're not even addressing the OP. Why do we need VA hospitals? Why not mainstream soldiers? Why not regular hospitals? University Medical Centers, private hospitals, like the rest of us? Most of them are going for routine care . . . not battle related injuries. Why bureaucracy? Why not private enterprise?

 

[MaggieD]

The answer to your first question is actually the same as your answer to the second. No, they aren't good enough.

Independent 2013 Survey Shows Veterans Highly Satisfied with VA Care | Veterans Today

Do an independent survey with the rest of us. Most of the rest of us are highly satisfied as well.

 

[CalGun]

Because we didn't pledge to insert veterans into a private system we pledged to have one that meets their needs and only theirs.

Can you imagine the first time a bureaucrat / panel says no to a Vet needing service? Oh sorry here gunny take these pills, say good bye to your family it'll be over soon!

Do you think that veterans use VA hospitals from cradle to grave? They go to VA hospitals when they're broke. That doesn't usually happen in some kind of grand plan. You're not even addressing the OP. Why do we need VA hospitals? Why not mainstream soldiers? Why not regular hospitals? University Medical Centers, private hospitals, like the rest of us? Most of them are going for routine care . . . not battle related injuries. Why bureaucracy? Why not private enterprise?

 

[Wiggen]

Do an independent survey with the rest of us. Most of the rest of us are highly satisfied as well.

I don't get your point. You started this thread with the presumption that veterans should go to private hospitals because - I guess - the VA isn't working. I just gave you a survey that proved most veterans are satisfied with the care they are receiving. Why should they change? Because you don't like it?

 

[Wiggen]

Do you think that veterans use VA hospitals from cradle to grave? They go to VA hospitals when they're broke. That doesn't usually happen in some kind of grand plan. You're not even addressing the OP. Why do we need VA hospitals? Why not mainstream soldiers? Why not regular hospitals? University Medical Centers, private hospitals, like the rest of us? Most of them are going for routine care . . . not battle related injuries. Why bureaucracy? Why not private enterprise?

Have you any concept of what medical care costs these days in private hospitals? Do you have any idea of how many veterans are now being treated in VA hospitals? Veterans live longer now. Injuries that used to be fatal on the battlefield are now survivable with advances that have been made in treating battlefield injuries. There would be no guarantee of any better treatment. Private enterprise as far as veterans are concerned would lead to massive profits for the insurance companies and for hospitals. God knows the
VA isn't perfect, but at least veterans are their priority. That would never be the case with private hospitals.

 

[radcen]

I am a disabled veteran (minor injury). I have been to VA hospitals for treatment, though not for many years as things have stabilized. Anyway, my own personal experiences were fine. I never had an issue. Having said that, I do believe the stories behind the current scandal, and know that there have been issues in general for many decades.

Does that mean that I believe all VA treatment should be outsourced? No. There are still many particular treatments, both physical and mental, that need specialists that can be centralized well within the VA umbrella. But, maybe a good compromise would be to have the more serious stuff centralized in a dozen or so VA centers scattered around the country, and have more mundane routine stuff outsourced to private local doctors and hospitals.

 

[LowDown]

Think about it. Why do we have veterans' hospitals? Are not private sector hospitals good enough? Why not simply enroll veterans in the AHA? Depending on a means test, all veterans could be entitled to an "X" subsidy, resulting in many of them receiving it completely free.

Why not?

After the Revolutionary War disabled veterans were given a pension. States provided homes for the disabled and this sort of thing continued piecemeal until 1930 when the Congress voted to centralize those government activities because central control was all the rage at the time. Originally it was just to treat war wounds but that was expanded, especially after WWII, to cover all health needs. Now the VA mainly takes care of old guys with stroke, heart attack, bad knees and hips, hypertension, and diabetes. Far more vets lost limbs to diabetes than ever got them blown off in combat. In fact, maybe only 1 in 12 vets you see at the VA hospital were ever in combat. In short, it's an entitlement that grew and grew to cover more and more, like they often do.

In addition to taking care of a lot of vets they also provide jobs to a lot of vets, especially administrators who are almost 100% veterans. So good luck ever getting the VA taken down.

Don't believe the hype in the news, by the way. Waiting lists in the VA are long, but if someone needs care right away they get it. All sick patients are on some kind of waiting list regardless of where they get their care, and they all eventually die on one, but not because they didn't get the care they needed; I don't believe that happens as a rule.

Vets often do get care in private hospitals. If they have an emergency they can be taken to the nearest hospital and the VA will pay for that. They also get home health care and nursing home care paid for if the VA can't provide it. That sort of thing is done ad hoc.

We're all about to get the same sort of care. Unless we pay a lot more for health insurance we'll be on narrow provider networks and that will mean longer wait times. For Medicaid patients it will mean not being able to get care at all.* Fleeing to private care won't change much.
___________________
*Say, any outrage over Medicaid patients dying on wait lists or because they couldn't get care? It's been going on for decades now.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Think about it. Why do we have veterans' hospitals? Are not private sector hospitals good enough? Why not simply enroll veterans in the AHA? Depending on a means test, all veterans could be entitled to an "X" subsidy, resulting in many of them receiving it completely free.

Why not?

Because the majority of Veterans get only a selected level of care.

Generally, at the top you have those retired, either from completing 20+ years of service, or those medically retired. They are eligible to full care from the VA.

Then you have students and the indigent. They are also entitled to full VA care, but only during the time they are in school, or until they get back on their feet and can get regular health care.

Then finally you have those with Service Connected disabilities. This includes people like me, where we are only entitled to treatment of the medical condition that we got while in the military, and nothing else. I can go to a VA facility and get treatment for my Right Knee, or hearing aids if my hearing degrades any more, or for my sleep apnea. But I can't go in for any other reason. Period.

And the main reason the VA exists is to cover that last class of veterans. People who were injured in the service of their country, and therefore are entitled to lifelong treatment for their medical condition. A "subsidy" would not cut it, why would I have to pay copays and other money out of my pocket to pay for something they are responsible for taking care of?

Now granted, I do not use the VA, have not for well over a decade. I found the frustration and bullcrap to much, so simply bought my own Motrin (4 200 mg tablets is the same as the single 800 mg tablet I got from the VA). But if my injury was much more severe, I would probably use the VA because it would not be affordable to do otherwise.

But once again, the problem is not really the medical care, it is the administration. The non-medical personnel in the VA who have the bureaucratic mindset and love to tell people "no", or make them wait simply because they have the power to do so.

And the people of this mindset who are not able to get jobs in the VA telling people no and ignoring them all end up working at the state level for the local DMV.

 

[MaggieD]

Because we didn't pledge to insert veterans into a private system we pledged to have one that meets their needs and only theirs.

Can you imagine the first time a bureaucrat / panel says no to a Vet needing service? Oh sorry here gunny take these pills, say good bye to your family it'll be over soon!

Other than combat injuries and, perhaps, after-effects of chemical exposure, what special needs is the VA treating? Tom goes there for high blood pressure, macular degeneration, high cholesterol, etc. You don't think our private sector is capable of treating these things?

The VA did say no to vets needing service. A whole bunch of them died.

 

[MaggieD]

I don't get your point. You started this thread with the presumption that veterans should go to private hospitals because - I guess - the VA isn't working. I just gave you a survey that proved most veterans are satisfied with the care they are receiving. Why should they change? Because you don't like it?

I actually started this thread with another one in mind -- the one where the OP was accusing the right of doing nothing for vets and denying a $25 billion package to build 25 new hospitals for them.

 

[MaggieD]

Have you any concept of what medical care costs these days in private hospitals? Do you have any idea of how many veterans are now being treated in VA hospitals? Veterans live longer now. Injuries that used to be fatal on the battlefield are now survivable with advances that have been made in treating battlefield injuries. There would be no guarantee of any better treatment. Private enterprise as far as veterans are concerned would lead to massive profits for the insurance companies and for hospitals. God knows the
VA isn't perfect, but at least veterans are their priority. That would never be the case with private hospitals.

Do you have any evidence that VA hospitals somehow treat patients cheaper than the private sector? If I'm not mistaken, that's what you're saying. Should we have special hospitals for people suffering from leukemia? Diabetes? Heart failure?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Can you imagine the first time a bureaucrat / panel says no to a Vet needing service? Oh sorry here gunny take these pills, say good bye to your family it'll be over soon!

CalGun, that happens all the time.

Let's go back to early 1993. I still wore a knee brace, walked with a cane, and was popping 800mg Motrins like they were candy. I got my nice shiny Honorable Discharge from the Marine Corps, with the appropriate codes showing I had been separated involuntarily with a service connected disability rated by the Navy at 10% (I had fought my Medical Board for almost 3 years, I did not want out).

Within 90 days you have to report to the VA so they can arrange for long-term care. So I make the appointment and go in. I do not see a Doctor, or a PA, or an RN, or any kind of medical person in this "initial interview". I literally go into an office and talk with an administrator. He looks through my paperwork and announces there is nothing I am eligible for from the VA, and he reduces my disability to 0%.

What follows was over a decade of struggle back and forth. I was not trying to any kind of check, I never once even tried to file for disability payments. I simply wanted the medical care for the injury I got in the military. And every time I would finally get it back up to 10% (after seeing a VA doctor), and some Administrator with no medical degree would knock it right back down to 0%.

In the VA, you probably have 40 administrative personnel for every 1 medical personnel. And like admin weenies everywhere, their day is not complete unless then can tell somebody "No".

 

[Oozlefinch]

Other than combat injuries and, perhaps, after-effects of chemical exposure, what special needs is the VA treating? Tom goes there for high blood pressure, macular degeneration, high cholesterol, etc. You don't think our private sector is capable of treating these things?

The VA did say no to vets needing service. A whole bunch of them died.

Believe it or not, the VA has long been at the forefront of long-term rehabilitation. Especially after traumatic injuries (specifically amputations). And it was the VA that originally pioneered many of the plastic surgery procedures. And it was the VA that tested and funded a great many advances in prosthetics over the decades. And this funding allows them to use state of the art techniques and technologies long before it is available to most individuals.

The only problem is generally in getting this care in the first place.

 

[radcen]

Maggie,

Be honest. How much of this is your feeling of being cheated with regard to your taxes?

 

[Oozlefinch]

I actually started this thread with another one in mind -- the one where the OP was accusing the right of doing nothing for vets and denying a $25 billion package to build 25 new hospitals for them.

I object to that as well, because it is like throwing chalkdust at a forest fire.

Essentially it does nothing.

The problem with the VA has nothing to do with funding, or the number of hospitals, or anything else. It has all to do with the horrible administration.

Now mind you, I am not saying the hospitals would not be good, but it is to little to late. And these will end up being gigantic boondoggles that will suck up more money, and repay in political favor the sycophants who actually run the VA.

Consider this... in the 1990's 4 military Hospitals were closed in the Bay Area. And each of them had a partnership with the VA to take cases that the VA could not handle. And during the Clinton Administration these facilities were all closed (the land has since been repurposed, generally becoming office parks or civilian housing). And it always bugged the hell out of me why these facilities could not be turned over to the VA since the Government already owned both the land and the facility.

Like Long Beach. Back in 1965, Long Beach sold 70 acres of a city park to the Navy for $1 to build a modern Naval Hospital. I went to the Carson Naval Hospital many times when I was first in, as did my wife and daughter.

Then in 1994 it was closed. The facility was much larger then the local Long Beach VA Center, and could have taken a lot of the pressure off of the already overworked Los Angeles VA system (the same year the Sepulveda VA Hospital was closed). But nope, the land was bulldozed and now a shopping mall sits there.

No administration can change governmental apathy, and that is the real problem with the VA.

 

[MaggieD]

Maggie,

Be honest. How much of this is your feeling of being cheated with regard to your taxes?

Honestly, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with my income or real estate taxes. I'm just talking common sense here.

 

[CalGun]

And if anything you should be acutely aware of that - which happened in AZ - and how vets were turned away from the GOV facilities that were promised them. Any promise obummer and the left have made you regarding your health care? You want that for everyone because once you blend out the VA and the public health care network there is nothing to stop the government from deciding who gets its services.

Other than combat injuries and, perhaps, after-effects of chemical exposure, what special needs is the VA treating? Tom goes there for high blood pressure, macular degeneration, high cholesterol, etc. You don't think our private sector is capable of treating these things?

The VA did say no to vets needing service. A whole bunch of them died.

 

[CalGun]

The exaggeration of 40 to 1 doesn't help. Is the VA mismanaged sure. The question is do we fix it or just abandon it as I suspect maggie is promoting here in this thread. Abandon it and you think the government is done, can wash its hands of the Veterans and there will be no bureaucrats all of a sudden - seriously? That won't fix anything except to make the already overburdened public health care system more rationed for everyone. And wowza...who you think's going to do the rationing? You've already seen radical leftist on these every forums have no trouble letting people head off to hospice rather then be cared for.

CalGun, that happens all the time.

Let's go back to early 1993. I still wore a knee brace, walked with a cane, and was popping 800mg Motrins like they were candy. I got my nice shiny Honorable Discharge from the Marine Corps, with the appropriate codes showing I had been separated involuntarily with a service connected disability rated by the Navy at 10% (I had fought my Medical Board for almost 3 years, I did not want out).

Within 90 days you have to report to the VA so they can arrange for long-term care. So I make the appointment and go in. I do not see a Doctor, or a PA, or an RN, or any kind of medical person in this "initial interview". I literally go into an office and talk with an administrator. He looks through my paperwork and announces there is nothing I am eligible for from the VA, and he reduces my disability to 0%.

What follows was over a decade of struggle back and forth. I was not trying to any kind of check, I never once even tried to file for disability payments. I simply wanted the medical care for the injury I got in the military. And every time I would finally get it back up to 10% (after seeing a VA doctor), and some Administrator with no medical degree would knock it right back down to 0%.

In the VA, you probably have 40 administrative personnel for every 1 medical personnel. And like admin weenies everywhere, their day is not complete unless then can tell somebody "No".

 

[Oozlefinch]

I actually started this thread with another one in mind -- the one where the OP was accusing the right of doing nothing for vets and denying a $25 billion package to build 25 new hospitals for them.

Maggie, I am going to hit on this one more time real quick.

Now let's all think about this. Can somebody please explain the logic here for me?

We have a Cabinet level department, that has been horribly run and in serious trouble for denying individuals the medical treatments they are mandated to provide, and then try to hide this face.

And what is the Government going to do about it? Why, give them even more hospitals and facilities that they can administer just as badly, giving them larger budgets and more personnel!

This is like something straight out of a Lewis Carroll novel. Now imagine this happening in any other Cabinet level position.

Hey, DOT, you have not done any maintenance and aircraft are falling out of the skies. So I am going to give you 4 new airports to administer the same way.

Hey, BLM, you are letting the National Forests burn up with lack of fire prevention measures and millions of Federal land is now sitting fallow instead of being used by ranchers and farmers. So we are going to increase your staff by 5% in the hopes you can stop that.

Hey Treasury Department, our currency has sunk to worthless, in par with the Mexican Peso. So let's build you 10 more mints so you can churn out even more!

Money is not the solution, it is excising the rot of the system and replacing it with one that mandates results and responsibility. Otherwise you might as well flush that $25 billion straight down the toilet for all the good it will do.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Think about it. Why do we have veterans' hospitals? Are not private sector hospitals good enough? Why not simply enroll veterans in the AHA? Depending on a means test, all veterans could be entitled to an "X" subsidy, resulting in many of them receiving it completely free.

Why not?

Can the civilian system handle an influx of millions of veterans?