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Why do so many hate guns/constitution?

Glen Contrarian said:
Nobody said anything about abolishing the 2A. That's just y'all equating what the REST of the free world knows is sensible gun control with Hitler-style tyranny.
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nothing gun restrictionists propose in the USA are sensible when it comes to actually reducing crime. All the proposals do is harass honest gun owners which of course is the real goal
 
Glen Contrarian said:
Nobody said anything about abolishing the 2A. That's just y'all equating what the REST of the free world knows is sensible gun control with Hitler-style tyranny.
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I realize nobody was honest, and said anything about abolishing the 2A, that's the point. ;) We cannot have the gun control the "rest of the FREE world" has, and you and your ilk desire, without abolishing the 2A. But you knew that.
 
countryboy said:
I realize nobody was honest, and said anything about abolishing the 2A, that's the point. ;) We cannot have the gun control the "rest of the FREE world" has, and you and your ilk desire, without abolishing the 2A. But you knew that.
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its funny watching gun banners deny they are banners when they make comments (as Obama and Cankles have) fluffing Australian and British Gun control laws.
 
TurtleDude said:
its funny watching gun banners deny they are banners when they make comments (as Obama and Cankles have) fluffing Australian and British Gun control laws.
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I knew Mr Contrarian wouldn't be honest (grabbers never are), but it is patently obvious what their goal is. As I said, the type of "gun control" they seek cannot be accomplished with the Second Amendment in place. Plain and simple. :shrug:
 
flogger said:
Thats why the comparative numbers mean so little to you I suppose :wink:
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They mean little because when it comes to crime I care about categories and not sub-categories. you are focused on the sub category of involving guns, not the overall categories. when you focus on the sub category of crime committed with guns, yes we're off the charts. same with Canada, and Norway is disproportionately high, and the like. when you compare broad categories of crime, the US falls in the middle of the developed world.

in fact Manc Skipper and I argued this some time ago, he argued the Czech republic was far more dangerous then the United Kingdom, and when I brought up that the homicide rate in the Czech Republic equaled the UK and Czech R had far lower levels of aggravated assault and sexual assault his reponse was to post that the subcategory of gun violence was far higher in the Czech republic. in other words, Brits (and Aussies) whe n comparing crime, focus only the gun related subcategory, no one else in the world does this.
 
countryboy said:
I knew Mr Contrarian wouldn't be honest (grabbers never are), but it is patently obvious what their goal is. As I said, the type of "gun control" they seek cannot be accomplished with the Second Amendment in place. Plain and simple. :shrug:
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the real illness is the facade that their schemes are motivated by an altruistic desire for less violent crime.

yet they push laws that either have nothing to do with crime (such as banning legally owned machine guns made after May 19, 1986 when in 80 years there is no evidence of legally owned machine guns in the hands of private citizens being used in crime) or are designed to attack honest gun owners (like registration and magazine limits) and cannot even apply to criminals
 
Glen Contrarian said:
First, it doesn't take a "massive level of investment". It would take a few thousand dollars to equip, a few tens of thousands of dollars - and a year or three - to train...and he could acquire the equipment and the training here in America LEGALLY...just as the 9/11 hijackers acquired their training in how to fly a plane here in America legally.
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you know what 35K is? massive upfront investment. 80% of Americans can't write a good check for 1000 dollars. you see people driving brand new SUVs on lease plans and between all their payments they're broke. 35K is massive upfront investment, but it's not just training and equipment, it's intelligence.

You're saying that the assassin would never be able to take out the president from a mile away...but you're forgetting about campaign stops, speeches in various states...given the motivation and a bit of money, yeah, it most certainly can be done. And it doesn't take a great deal of intel, either - or haven't you noticed that the media gives up to a 24-hr notice about when and where the president's going to arrive, and where he's going? They've done so more than once, letting us know when Air Force One was arriving at Boeing Field...and you know better than I just how many platforms one could use within a one-mile radius. Even then it wouldn't be a sure thing...but the possibility would be very, very real.
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Yes we know when the president will be in a given area, but very little about specifics. they never publish which specific hotel room he's in for example. I work in the SoDo district of Seattle. I've seen freaking Air Force one fly in a direct path over my work in the land approach to King Co Intl. (not "Boeing Field" that's a nickname, it's King Co Intl). Any platform in practical shooting distance, a .308 or .30-06 or .338 Lapua or .270 Weatherby using match grade ammo will make the shot on a pure distance basis. But I would think the Secret Service and WA State Patrol do a pretty good job scanning for threats, and the president is not exposed, he gets right off the plane and into the motorcade, once he's in the motorcade nothing firing a bullet that's legal to own in this country can touch him. and if there was any reason to suspect a sniper they could easily pull him off the plane via the airport terminal and not getting off of AF1 on the Tarmac. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely and since the Kennedy assasination screening is fairly good.

I've long said that we've been very fortunate that the great majority of terrorists are stupid and/or ignorant...because if they really had half a clue about how to cause real chaos in America, it's very, very easy. Just look at the several times we've had "snipers" shooting people driving along the freeway - and in every case it's been some domestic idiots. Just think of what one determined, intelligent, and well-trained guy could do with a good sniper rifle, when it comes to much more damaging targets than autos on a freeway.
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And they never get away either. the types of people you are worrying about, Smart criminals intent on doing the absolute highest crime one in this society could commit, well second highest, a hair behind outright treason, WILL find a way to get the tools they need. you're not talking about your average criminal here, successfully assasinating a president isn't amature hour, Hinkley came close but he was dumb lucky, and he didn't succeed. An Ossetian lobbed a hand grenade at GWB in Tblisi, but we can't protect POTUS overseas as well as we can here when the Secret Service has no LE authority and local authorities are not always.... professional. Don't worry, hand grenades are pretty illegal here in CONUS.
 
Crimefree said:


You know as well as anyone here that you are not promoting crime reduction because that is impossible. So what are you doing?
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Of course crime reduction is possible and both the UK and Australia have proven that :roll:
 
EMNofSeattle said:
They mean little because when it comes to crime I care about categories and not sub-categories. you are focused on the sub category of involving guns, not the overall categories.
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Why wouldn't you want to focus on the most lethal and violent crime and why it was happening far more often in the US unless you were attempting to deflect from its causes ?

when you focus on the sub category of crime committed with guns, yes we're off the charts. same with Canada, and Norway is disproportionately high, and the like. when you compare broad categories of crime, the US falls in the middle of the developed world.
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Yes indeed and I've illustrated that already elsewhere. All countries have petty crime and thats not likely to change. What makes the US unique amongst developed nations is its gun driven violent crime and that is why it is a talking point

in fact Manc Skipper and I argued this some time ago, he argued the Czech republic was far more dangerous then the United Kingdom, and when I brought up that the homicide rate in the Czech Republic equaled the UK and Czech R had far lower levels of aggravated assault and sexual assault his reponse was to post that the subcategory of gun violence was far higher in the Czech republic. in other words, Brits (and Aussies) whe n comparing crime, focus only the gun related subcategory, no one else in the world does this.
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Probably because this is a primarily English speaking forum. I don't doubt other nations in the developed world share our views
 
Glen Contrarian said:
You'd have a point if it weren't for the FACT that America has by far the highest homicide rate in the Free World. Heck, even the safest state in America - it's either Vermont or New Hampshire - has a higher homicide rate than third-world Muslim nation Indonesia. Look it up.
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Don't upset him using facts and figures you'll only make him go into another rant :wink:
 
OpportunityCost said:
From your source:

Just have massage the numbers to get the results you want....
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Thats why those numbers were taken from the homicides only column so no 'massaging' was necessary

You don't read your own sources properly so why should I expect you to read mine ? :wink:
 
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flogger said:
Interestingly it shows the UK some 57 places below the US too. Crimefree will be after you soon if you keep this up :wink:
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How do you explain Switzerland? They actually let people that serve in the military keep their personal weapons. Yet their murder rate is almost nil and they have lax gun control.
 
OpportunityCost said:
How do you explain Switzerland? They actually let people that serve in the military keep their personal weapons. Yet their murder rate is almost nil and they have lax gun control.
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72% of murders in Switzerland involve a firearm. Their gun murder rate is some 13 times that of the UK. As I asked earlier how much better still would those overall Swiss homicide numbers look if guns were taken out of the equation ?
 
flogger said:
Thats why those numbers were taken from the homicides only column so no 'massaging' was necessary

You don't read your own sources properly so why should I expect you to read mine ? :wink:
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Justifiable homicides? That means self defense or homicide while committing a crime. So yes, massaged.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Justifiable homicides? That means self defense or homicide while committing a crime. So yes, massaged.
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As the FBI figures showed only 1 in 32 of your homicides could be claimed to be 'justifiable' so that get out clause doesn't really work for you

You are still nearly 60 times more likely to be shot dead on your streets than I am on mine
 
flogger said:
Why wouldn't you want to focus on the most lethal and violent crime and why it was happening far more often in the US unless you were attempting to deflect from its causes ?
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Because legislation is not the cause. There is not even correlation between laws and violence. let alone casuation, so you're not focusing on cause.
Yes indeed and I've illustrated that already elsewhere. All countries have petty crime and thats not likely to change. What makes the US unique amongst developed nations is its gun driven violent crime and that is why it is a talking point
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Not just petty crime, comparing the US to the rest of the world in terms of violent crime yields us right in the middle. not amongst the lowest, nor the highest.



Probably because this is a primarily English speaking forum. I don't doubt other nations in the developed world share our views
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You would be wrong, Finland, Norway, Czech Republic, Pakistan, Canada, The Philipines, and Switzerland are examples of countries with active gun cultures that do not ban semi auto rifles like the Aussies do or handguns as you do. I forgot New Zealand, they have a pretty active shooting culture there as well.

Yet Aussies and Brits feel entitled to tell other countries, mostly us, how to run their domestic affairs. The Canadians on this forum hardly ever criticize american gun culture anything like three of you englishmen do.
 
flogger said:
As the FBI figures showed only 1 in 32 of your homicides could be claimed to be 'justifiable' so that get out clause doesn't really work for you

You are still nearly 60 times more likely to be shot dead on your streets than I am on mine
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Blah blah blah, no one cares! This is the point of subcategory versus category.

you're focusing only on the gun! when it comes to risk of being murdered it narrows down to three, not 60, you're making a dishonest argument and that's why no one here takes you seriously.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Because legislation is not the cause. There is not even correlation between laws and violence. let alone casuation, so you're not focusing on cause.
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But why would you want a society where its made so easy to commit acts of extreme violence ?

Not just petty crime, comparing the US to the rest of the world in terms of violent crime yields us right in the middle. not amongst the lowest, nor the highest.
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Hmm ... see post #112 for details on that.

You would be wrong, Finland, Norway, Czech Republic, Pakistan, Canada, The Philipines, and Switzerland are examples of countries with active gun cultures that do not ban semi auto rifles like the Aussies do or handguns as you do. I forgot New Zealand, they have a pretty active shooting culture there as well.
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And they all have considerably higher rates of gun death too
 
flogger said:
72% of murders in Switzerland involve a firearm. Their gun murder rate is some 13 times that of the UK. As I asked earlier how much better still would those overall Swiss homicide numbers look if guns were taken out of the equation ?
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Yet their violent crime rate is a good deal lower as well as their overall homicide rate. So guns aren't the overall factor.

Logically, gun bans are not impacting the OVERALL crime rate, enough to justify disarming citizens to no net effect. Yes they effect the gun crime rate which is why you focus on it, if I took away ladders, your danger of falling off one would go down (derp).

So what we are left with is people wanting to disarm citizens and make them defenseless for political reasons. The US is egalitarian. People in the US like being self reliant and being able to defend themselves. We believe in self government as well, so getting a gun ban is a non starter right now except in liberal bastions.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Blah blah blah, no one cares! This is the point of subcategory versus category.

you're focusing only on the gun! when it comes to risk of being murdered it narrows down to three, not 60, you're making a dishonest argument and that's why no one here takes you seriously.
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No your overall murder rate per capita is nearly 5 times ours. 70% of which involve the use of a firearm
 
flogger said:
But why would you want a society where its made so easy to commit acts of extreme violence ?
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Why would you want a society where your only option when threatened with violence is to take it or give up whatever they want from you?
 
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