Why do so many hate guns/constitution?

[Lursa]

Fear
Ignorance (huge gap in understanding the realities and demographics of gun ownership and use)
Lack of respect for other Americans / arrogant/selfish/mistaken/unrealistic presumption on their need or right to protect themselves

 

[TurtleDude]

That's my point. But they only go after guns.

that is because the main motivation for gun bans is to sap the political power of the NRA. most of the proposals NRA haters make are don't come close to meeting a smell test as crime control measures.

 

[TurtleDude]

And the specific part you quoted said, "From just before the assault-weapon ban was enacted in 1994 until soon after its expiration in 2004, it consistently drew support of 60 percent of Americans or more. Lately, though, its popularity has declined — so much so that more Americans opposed it than supported it in two December polls."

This is not ALL guns, but only certain guns. But even then, as your reference pointed out, the opinion is swinging the other way. It's not a politically-viable battle anymore.

Gun banners have never been able to explain why the second amendment ceases to exist based on how a firearm looks or how many bullets it can accept in a detachable magazine

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Because then you might not be able to kill both yourselves each other in such large numbers every year perhaps ?

Just like what happens in the rest of the developed world

Every time someone from Europe says something like that I immediately wonder what the actual number counts would be over, say, the last 240 years, since the USA came into existence versus other countries in Europe and Europe in general over the same period. We basically, especially since our Constitution was ratified, have had the ability and right of gun ownership.

Be interesting to run the figures and see what the actual numbers of violent deaths are.

I would suggest that with two World Wars, some other minor events like the Holocaust, the pogroms in Russia, the mass starvation by Stalin of the Ukrainians, all the fighting/killing in the Balkans...maybe our numbers do not look near so bad in contrast? Maybe if Europeans in general had had second amendment rights equivalent to ours in the USA, maybe they would have kept their governments in check like we have here. And maybe their annual rates would have been, and continue to be, generally higher, but might not have spiked into the millions, perhaps tens of millions during some periods?

Of course its just speculation, but the numbers this side of the Atlantic for violent deaths, you know, vs when Europeans kill both themselves and "each other in such large numbers" over the last 240 or so years, I think would tend to be much much much lower.

Just saying.

 

[WCH]

Yes, because people aren't stupid. Are you really equating hands, which are part of the human body, with an instrument whose intended purpose is to hurt or kill?

Also, you recall incorrectly. Guns responsible for more homicide than all other methods combined.


Again, please show me where people who want stronger gun control are okay with other instruments designed to hurt/kill being more freely accessible.

OK I was wrong. [It was actually 5 times more murders by knives than rifles]

Where is the evidence of people protesting other weapons?

 

[Bucky]

I use to classify myself as one who wanted to ban handguns for private citizens. I even wrote my first DP post on that very topic, but I no longer put myself in that camp. The primary issue with a handgun ban (apart from its constitutionality and feasability in the implementation) is the fact that technology advances so quickly as to make any ban on handguns almost pointless. In actuality, the primary issue that I and others have with handguns is that they are small, easily concealable, easy to manipulate, and deadly - all of which helps to explain why they are most used in criminal activities or by children in accidental shootings. With that said, if you tried to ban handguns, you would inevitably miss some models that are also small, easy to manipulate, etc. and then you have the problem that technology could likely create something like lethal handheld microwave/laser type weapons in the near future. So you would constantly be chasing a shifting problem.

I would assume anyone that supports banning a handgun from any non police officer would want any "gun" period banned. Essentially anything where a bullets is propelled from a tube - this would include a riffle. musket. etc...

That would ruin several people's quality of life as it would essentially kill the hunting industry. I do not hunt but I have hunted before and found the activity to be a therapeutic bonding experience.

 

[TurtleDude]

I would assume anyone that supports banning a handgun from any non police officer would want any "gun" period banned. Essentially anything where a bullets is propelled from a tube - this would include a riffle. musket. etc...

That would ruin several people's quality of life as it would essentially kill the hunting industry. I do not hunt but I have hunted before and found the activity to be a therapeutic bonding experience.

most of the gun banners-when you strip away the bs about public safety, are left wing political activists who hate the role the NRA has entered as a massive lobbying force for conservative politicians. Most of the schemes pushed as "crime control" by the left wing are nothing more than schemes to punish NRA members and other gun rights activists by making the shooting sports more expensive or even banning them

 

[joG]

How many people deliberately kill each other with obesity ?

No idea. They seem to do it behind my back. Do you think it might be a conspiracy? The XXXL conspiracy, like?

 

[jet57]

Roughly 1/4 in America believes that non policemen/authorized person should be able to carry a handgun. This idea clearly goes against the constitution and supports a police-state. I am simply trying to understand the rational to banning guns. How does it make us more safe?

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Most Americans Agree With Obama That More Gun Buyers Should Get Background Checks | FiveThirtyEight

I think that your thread title is jumping to conclusions. Nobody "hates" guns in that fashion or particularly the constitution. There's a lot of people that have had it up to their eyeballs with all the shootings going on, and the gangs, and the crazies and just all the over the top violence. People want it to stop, I'm one of them and I bet that you are too. So, how do we get the guns out of the wrong hands and make sure it stays that way? If the NRA and others can't help with a solution, then they are only inviting the government to be pressured into doing it their way.

So don't give the government a reason to be involved and they won't.

 

[joG]

I think that your thread title is jumping to conclusions. Nobody "hates" guns in that fashion or particularly the constitution. There's a lot of people that have had it up to their eyeballs with all the shootings going on, and the gangs, and the crazies and just all the over the top violence. People want it to stop, I'm one of them and I bet that you are too. So, how do we get the guns out of the wrong hands and make sure it stays that way? If the NRA and others can't help with a solution, then they are only inviting the government to be pressured into doing it their way.

So don't give the government a reason to be involved and they won't.

It isn't even in a dreamy world a question of getting the guns out of the wrong hands in a healthy society. It is about preventing hands becoming wrong by getting the process of socialization right.

 

[sookster]

Gun control actually works, according to large study.

 

[jet57]

It isn't even in a dreamy world a question of getting the guns out of the wrong hands in a healthy society. It is about preventing hands becoming wrong by getting the process of socialization right.

Well, now you're dreamin: that ain't gonna happen - and you know it. First, we have waaaaay too many stresses in this this country that cause people to seek out their own anger in frustration, and secondly as long as we live in a society that idolizes as we still do - Al Capone, then you will always have those who for no better reason go for the thrill. The harder is is to get something, the less of it there is.

How do we do that? That's what I said the brainy NRA and others need to get crackin on.

 

[joG]

Gun control actually works, according to large study.

It seems, the scientists point out that they did "not conclusively prove that gun restrictions reduce gun deaths". They do show that where sales are newly restricted by law there tends to be a fall off in the number killed by guns. This differentiation is fundamental.

 

[joG]

Well, now you're dreamin: that ain't gonna happen - and you know it. First, we have waaaaay too many stresses in this this country that cause people to seek out their own anger in frustration, and secondly as long as we live in a society that idolizes as we still do - Al Capone, then you will always have those who for no better reason go for the thrill. The harder is is to get something, the less of it there is.

How do we do that? That's what I said the brainy NRA and others need to get crackin on.

It seems to work in other countries. Why should we have so many more lousy parents than them? Do you think it's like obesity? Same socio-legal causes?

 

[flogger]

Every time someone from Europe says something like that I immediately wonder what the actual number counts would be over, say, the last 240 years, since the USA came into existence versus other countries in Europe and Europe in general over the same period. We basically, especially since our Constitution was ratified, have had the ability and right of gun ownership.

Well since the turn of the century you have lost more of your citizens to domestic firearms than you have in both world wars. Why any society would find that acceptable is beyond me frankly

Be interesting to run the figures and see what the actual numbers of violent deaths are.

Wartime casualties vs peacetime ? Hardly relevant to the argument. We had 25 gun deaths last year you had over 35,000 and that figure continues to rise steadily

 

[flogger]

Trouble is, the only deadly weapon they want banned are guns.

Thats because they are by far the most deadly as your own figures show with around 70% of all murders and suicides involving their use

 

[MrT]

I would assume anyone that supports banning a handgun from any non police officer would want any "gun" period banned. Essentially anything where a bullets is propelled from a tube - this would include a riffle. musket. etc....

That would be an inaccurate assumption.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Wartime casualties vs peacetime ? Hardly relevant to the argument. We had 25 gun deaths last year you had over 35,000 and that figure continues to rise steadily

Why would not wartime be something to include? You killing each other in far inordinate numbers somehow should be overlooked, gets a pass because why? As indicated in my post, we have tamed, trained our government over here. They know we have the advantage of numbers against them, so they usually do not even try to mess with any fascist, communist and whatever else new type of government control crap you folks have allowed to misdirect yourselves towards “over there”. Result in your case? A blood lust run rampant in 2 World Wars etcetera with massive killing of each other, massive destruction, disruption, misery and pain.

Except for our American Civil War, which was proof positive to our government that if you allow us guns, which they have to as it is our Constitutional right, we don't just say we will use them if we think the government is abusing its limited powers, the message was sent that indeed we WILL use them.

And we will, we are not great believers in tyranny over here, do not like being led, simple lambs to slaughter like you fellow first worlders have historically proven. First worlders under the protection of our tamed government and “our guns over here” so that you might still be free, over there.

 

[flogger]

Why would not wartime be something to include?

Ummm ... because its wartime :lol:

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Ummm ... because its wartime :lol:

So, you are saying in European wartime, there is none of that you killing others stuff going on, eh? Gosh, you folks are really really sophisticated then, if that is true. I have heard it from validated sources that, however, that is not quite the case. More like tens of millions were killed by others. You don't get a time out exclusion just because you folks have such horrific bloodletting known as wars.

And that is what you said originally about the high numbers, right, killing of oneself and others?

You hide, try, behind rules you do not get to make up. Fact is, more people violently kill other people in Europe than we ever even thought about here.

Undeniable.

 

[jet57]

It seems to work in other countries. Why should we have so many more lousy parents than them? Do you think it's like obesity? Same socio-legal causes?

It's the gun obsession these days; it's more of a political movement than anything else. Moreover the gangs in this country are going rather crazy and their shopping list for guns if getting larger and larger due to the proliferation. Gangs are not headed like they were, they're more of a lose tribe of renegades without the organization they once had, so territorial fighting is more frequent and brutal. Most of the gangs today are controlled by outside cartels anyway.

On the other hand we have the "second amendment rights" people trying to free more and more weapons and high capacity magazines etc, which just floods the market, and we see things like gangs robbing gun stores, we see that they're not getting away with just cap guns. One of the contributing factors in this is this "Black lives matter" sort of business wherein cops have to be extremely careful in order to keep their jobs, so gang members in urban areas really have the upper hand. The whole gang thing i a counter culture that needs to be brought down in order to clean up the streets.

 

[jet57]

It isn't even in a dreamy world a question of getting the guns out of the wrong hands in a healthy society. It is about preventing hands becoming wrong by getting the process of socialization right.

And that all starts with a less stressed out society right? Fear breeds contempt. We don't need "the utopia" that some yell about, but what we need is to get back to the society of the 50s where anybody who wanted to work had no problem finding a good job and we didn't need ten people to support rent or a mortgage payment. But, that's our free market working against us again.

 

[joG]

It's the gun obsession these days; it's more of a political movement than anything else. Moreover the gangs in this country are going rather crazy and their shopping list for guns if getting larger and larger due to the proliferation. Gangs are not headed like they were, they're more of a lose tribe of renegades without the organization they once had, so territorial fighting is more frequent and brutal. Most of the gangs today are controlled by outside cartels anyway.

On the other hand we have the "second amendment rights" people trying to free more and more weapons and high capacity magazines etc, which just floods the market, and we see things like gangs robbing gun stores, we see that they're not getting away with just cap guns. One of the contributing factors in this is this "Black lives matter" sort of business wherein cops have to be extremely careful in order to keep their jobs, so gang members in urban areas really have the upper hand. The whole gang thing i a counter culture that needs to be brought down in order to clean up the streets.

It sounds like the discription of a society with very unhealthy factors wrecking havoc.

 

[joG]

And that all starts with a less stressed out society right? Fear breeds contempt. We don't need "the utopia" that some yell about, but what we need is to get back to the society of the 50s where anybody who wanted to work had no problem finding a good job and we didn't need ten people to support rent or a mortgage payment. But, that's our free market working against us again.

You can't go home again.

 

[jet57]

It sounds like the discription of a society with very unhealthy factors wrecking havoc.

That's exactly what it is. Our priorities are focused on what the next fantastic thing Apple is going to put out, rather then building K-12 education. "Fighting ISIS" rather than very closely examining what gets groups like ISIS going in the first place and then making course corrections. Charging $750 for a pill that costs $2 to make. Feeding the stock market rather than creating a market that feeds US. I mean, it just goes on and on and American politics is just another game on the merry go round.