Why do males have an abortion opinion?

[Infinite Chaos]

The constitution is legal text given weight in the court system, the DoI does not share this distinction and is not law.

We're in agreement there.

-- You already asked this, and I replied. My feeling is that these rights evolved natural as man evolved and is a part of the human equation…similar to a commonly shared fear of snakes and spiders.. Others will disagree and find these rights were something given to us by our creator.

A fear of snakes tends to be instinctive in some animals and may be commonly held in societies where interaction with poisonous snakes is common - but maybe you chose a bad example. I'm still no nearer finding where "natural rights" come from however - beyond them being lofty ideals.

-- You are mistaken about my position. History shows that just because we have a strong collectively held view that natural rights do exist, we have never as a nation honored them universally, and I’m not arguing for doing so. Instead, I’m pointing out the hypocrisy in women trying to use them to claim a right to abortion can’t be denied.

Universality...

Are "natural rights" common universally across the globe? Are they some deeply held beliefs that all peoples share? I doubt it, slavery and other phenomena that deny liberty / personal rights etc existed and still exist now.

I think if a woman believes in "natural rights" and claims defence of abortion - you may be right (I have no belief in "natural rights" so have no interest in defending the position) however legal law exists and can be pointed at and linked most clearly in different nations. I will defend a woman who claims a legal right to abortion under legal law.

--My point is that society has just as much legitimacy in denying abortion as they do in denying a large billboard to be erected on a business property

You lost me there..

--or what drugs a person can consume. One person claimed that abortion is a right because it is a women’s body, I’m pointing out that we do not honor a person’s rights to their body (see drug laws) and it is hypocritical for a liberal to use this defense anyway (see tax laws)

The equality argument - this time with recreational drugs. I see no parallel with the pro / anti abortion debate I'm afraid.

And why is it "liberal?" anyway?

Are all of us across the globe liberals that argue that a woman has a right to an abortion on the grounds of (and I'll use someone else's words) bodily sovereignty mitigated of course by the growing unborn human's rights as it reaches and passes the point of viability?

I definitively am a believer in natural law. For instance, I don’t need society to recognize that slavery is wrong. Rights most certainly do exist outside of a state construct

Have you ever wondered how quickly this sheen of modern sophistication and civilisation disappears when there is a power cut or major disaster?

Concepts of "natural law" go very quickly and we revert to survival of the fittest / strongest. Slavery has existed for millenia and still exists - if "natural law" was a common human concept and ideal I think slavery would have gone long ago.

One of the first – and usually the most recited word used by an infant is “mine”. Even at early adolescents, natural rights are recognized.

In my recollection it was "dada" or daddy that was most recited - simply because it was the easiest word to say. However, for sake of argument - let's accept - if the child went on to say mine about other objects / things too would they (by law of natural right) be his/hers too?

Or would it simply be that infants / toddlers simply tend to repeat words they can articulate as they grasp the language they are learning? Mine went on to repeat "again" when I made a fool of myself for their entertainment or when they enjoyed some treat.

 

[ARealConservative]

A fear of snakes tends to be instinctive in some animals and may be commonly held in societies where interaction with poisonous snakes is common - but maybe you chose a bad example. I'm still no nearer finding where "natural rights" come from however - beyond them being lofty ideals.

The example is fine. Natural rights appear to be an instinctive trait

Universality...

Are "natural rights" common universally across the globe? Are they some deeply held beliefs that all peoples share? I doubt it, slavery and other phenomena that deny liberty / personal rights etc existed and still exist now.

Like a fear of snakes, they are pervasive, but clearly not shared by all people. Some people are defective 

I think if a woman believes in "natural rights" and claims defence of abortion - you may be right (I have no belief in "natural rights" so have no interest in defending the position) however legal law exists and can be pointed at and linked most clearly in different nations. I will defend a woman who claims a legal right to abortion under legal law.

I won’t defend her. Nor would I defend a master that claims a legal right to a slave.

The equality argument - this time with recreational drugs. I see no parallel with the pro / anti abortion debate I'm afraid.

This is because you still haven’t tried to understand my position. Someone claimed that abortion is a right because a women owns her body. There is absolutely a parallel that can be drawn between that stance and a person claiming a right to use drugs because they own their body

And why is it "liberal?" anyway?

\

Why is what liberal? The person claiming abortion is a right was liberal. I’m pointing out the nonsensical position that abortion can be a right that can’t be violated, but we can interrupt all other forms of a person using their property – like erecting a large sign in my yard, or using drugs, or setting a tax rate as high as 94%. Either property is off limits to a social vote, or it isn’t.

Are all of us across the globe liberals that argue that a woman has a right to an abortion on the grounds of (and I'll use someone else's words) bodily sovereignty mitigated of course by the growing unborn human's rights as it reaches and passes the point of viability?

No – everyone is a liberal that has “liberal’ in their profile under their name.

Have you ever wondered how quickly this sheen of modern sophistication and civilisation disappears when there is a power cut or major disaster?

Concepts of "natural law" go very quickly and we revert to survival of the fittest / strongest. Slavery has existed for millenia and still exists - if "natural law" was a common human concept and ideal I think slavery would have gone long ago.

Although Natural Rights evolved as man evolved – we still are animals and survival is an even more instinctively held trait.

In my recollection it was "dada" or daddy that was most

My kids all said dada quite early – even before they knew the meaning. Mine was also an early word, and unlike dada, it was clear they grasped a rudimentary meaning behind the word quite early and was not merely making sounds.

 

[Inferno]

My position, is that up two 8 weeks, I will reluctantly say a woman can choose to have an abortion in this case.


I view it however, as being two victims, but I understand the ramifications and the mental well being of the woman in this case.


NEXT.

There are a lot of women that don't know at 8 weeks for sure.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

The example is fine. Natural rights appear to be an instinctive trait

Worth discussion on a non abortion thread sometime. Anyhow - I'd appreciate your sources on that sometime.

-- This is because you still haven’t tried to understand my position.

My apologies.

-- Someone claimed that abortion is a right because a women owns her body.

To me abortion is about the balance between the unborn human's rights and the mothers' as the foetus develops. There's a heavy bias rightly towards the mother before viability is established / reached and as the child nears birth it has as much right in legal law as the mother. Or should have.

The person claiming abortion is a right was liberal.
No – everyone is a liberal that has “liberal’ in their profile under their name.

OK, you're referring to another poster. I sometimes get accused of being a Liberal and sometimes of even being a Democrat here.

-- Although Natural Rights evolved as man evolved – we still are animals and survival is an even more instinctively held trait.

Really need to discuss this on another thread where abortion won't distract from the subject.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

There are a lot of women that don't know at 8 weeks for sure.

they need to go see a doctor then. take a pregnancy test. account for the choices they made.

 

[talloulou]

The fetus is not growing in you. Your body is not being altered. You are not the one who gets sick in the morning. The fetus in the female body only pertains to the female. What is the big deal with all the anti abortion males?

Is it just a control issue for males? Do you see it as just a way to push your male agenda on the women of the world?

I would imagine the decision to become a parent or not become a parent is equally as important to men as it is for women. I imagine their concerns with it deal with the bigger picture going far beyond the matter of the state of your uterus for 9 months.

 

[talloulou]

So you are clearly against abortion...ill ask again, what on rape victims?

Pregnancy from rape is rather uncommon. Pregnancy from rape when the raped person was treated in the hospital and given the MAP is incredibly rare. Statistically insignificant to the discussion IMO.

 

[talloulou]

No, it highlighted the fact that when the check is written to the court, there is no question from the court that says "now did you make sure you worked with your own body to provide this child support"? The obligation isn't put on the body. The obligation is simply to provide the funds.

Not so with forcing a woman to gestate. There's no way around her giving up her bodily resources and being forced to endure a medical condition she doesn't want to endure.

There is a difference between forcing someone into a condition vs refusing to relieve them of a condition.

Example: I had a girlfriend who at age 21 wanted to have her tubes tied. She did not want any more kids. However she could not find any dr. willing to perform the procedure due to her young age. 3 different drs refused her and told her to come back when she was 24.

How 'bout if a 13 year old girl decided she absolutely did not want to deal with her monthly menstrual cycle and she desperately wanted a dr. to give her a total hysterectomy to be done with the whole bleeding thing once and for all. Very likely, if the young girl is healthy, her request will be refused outright by dr. after dr. after dr.

There is no obligation for drs. to relieve healthy women of healthy pregnancies. Their refusal to do so in no way represents a force any more than claiming my young friends drs. forced her to walk around with untied tubes or the drs forced the 13 year old above to continue having a monthly menstrual cycle.

 

[kaya'08]

Pregnancy from rape is rather uncommon. /QUOTE]

:rofl

Where did you get these stats from? :doh :roll:

 

[talloulou]

Pregnancy from rape is rather uncommon. /QUOTE]

:rofl

Where did you get these stats from? :doh :roll:

It's well known that statistically women are less likely to get pregnant from rape than consensual sex. On top of this the treatment for rape victims in the US almost always includes the MAP making the chances of pregnancy practically nil. The amount of abortions where rape is given as the reason is something like less than 1% of the total abortions performed in our country. That's why I think it's statistically insignificant.

Rather than support abortion for raped women I'd rather support education for women so that if they are raped they seek treatment and avoid needing an abortion all together.

 

[talloulou]

Although pregnancy caused by rape is rare (except in the few days before ovulation), emergency contraception (see Family Planning: Emergency Contraception) should be offered to all women with a negative pregnancy test. Usually, oral contraceptives are used; if used > 72 h after rape, they are much less likely to be effective. An antiemetic may help if nausea develops. An intrauterine device may be effective if used up to 10 days after rape. If pregnancy results from rape, the patient's attitude toward the pregnancy and abortion should be determined, and if appropriate, the option of elective termination should be discussed.

Medical Examination of the Rape Victim: Gynecology and Obstetrics: Merck Manual Professional

Think about it. A woman has a fairly short window where she can conceive. A guy would have to rape her within that window.

In any event supporting her right to treatment and the MAP after a rape is better than supporting her right to an abortion. It's ultimately less invasive for her.

 

[Anima]

Medical Examination of the Rape Victim: Gynecology and Obstetrics: Merck Manual Professional

Think about it. A woman has a fairly short window where she can conceive. A guy would have to rape her within that window.

In any event supporting her right to treatment and the MAP after a rape is better than supporting her right to an abortion. It's ultimately less invasive for her.

I agree with this particular point, but one of the problems with this scenario is that the majority of rape vicims don't seek any medical treatment afterwards, and therefore aren't offered the MAP. In most cases, we're depending on traumatised women to be able to cut through their own fear and revulsion in time to actually get the pill. I personally think doctors should give a few rounds of the MAP to women to keep in their possession for emergencies. Less cosly, physically and financially, than an abortion.

 

[jallman]

There is a difference between forcing someone into a condition vs refusing to relieve them of a condition.

Example: I had a girlfriend who at age 21 wanted to have her tubes tied. She did not want any more kids. However she could not find any dr. willing to perform the procedure due to her young age. 3 different drs refused her and told her to come back when she was 24.

How 'bout if a 13 year old girl decided she absolutely did not want to deal with her monthly menstrual cycle and she desperately wanted a dr. to give her a total hysterectomy to be done with the whole bleeding thing once and for all. Very likely, if the young girl is healthy, her request will be refused outright by dr. after dr. after dr.

There is no obligation for drs. to relieve healthy women of healthy pregnancies. Their refusal to do so in no way represents a force any more than claiming my young friends drs. forced her to walk around with untied tubes or the drs forced the 13 year old above to continue having a monthly menstrual cycle.

It's not doctors that seem to want to force this on a woman.

 

[kaya'08]

It's well known that statistically women are less likely to get pregnant from rape than consensual sex.

I dont care whats less likely, fact is, it still happens and in large numbers even if its less when compared to something else. We cannot ignore such people or dismiss giving them the choice for abortion just because its "unlikely".

 

[talloulou]

I dont care whats less likely, fact is, it still happens and in large numbers even if its less when compared to something else. We cannot ignore such people or dismiss giving them the choice for abortion just because its "unlikely".

Statistically speaking it does not happen in large numbers and when you're talking abortion it's less than 1% of women going for an elective abortion reporting the pregnancy was a result of rape.

Furthermore I did not advocate ignoring them. Rather than waste time fighting for their right to abort I favor stressing the importance of them being treated after the rape, receiving the antibiotics that are always administered to lessen the likelihood of STDs along with the MAP all of which done within 72 hours of the rape makes your chances of pregnancy zero. If they don't want to go to the hospital and report their rape in many many states they can just go to a pharmacy and get the MAP. They should go to the ER though so they can be given the antibiotics as well. They are under no obligation to have a rape kit completed. They are under no obligation to speak with police officers or report the crime to the police except in instances where it was the police and ambulance who brought them to the ER. It's all about empowering them. Getting treatment after a rape, or even just going to the pharmacy, within 72 hours is less invasive and more beneficial than an elective abortion.

This does not ignore them. It provides them with ample opportunity (72 hours) to have the issue dealt with so they don't have to worry about pregnancy. In many many states a victim won't even have to pay for treatment if they tell the ER they were raped regardless of whether or not they officially choose to report to police. (Personally I have trouble with this because it throws the rape statistic numbers off and young gals are likely to claim rape on their ER papers in order to get the treatment and also get out of being billed or having their parents find out. But in the scope of things I'm not very bothered by inflated rape reports in hospitals and I imagine having MAP sold over the counter will put an end to most of that. )

 

[gabrielh]

The fetus is not growing in you. Your body is not being altered. You are not the one who gets sick in the morning. The fetus in the female body only pertains to the female. What is the big deal with all the anti abortion males?

Is it just a control issue for males? Do you see it as just a way to push your male agenda on the women of the world?

I don't have a problem with males having an opinion on abortion, but I do think part of this idea influences my view. I used to be pro life, but I changed position after coming to the conclusion (amongst other things) that since I will never be pregnant, I feel like my view should be weighted less against a woman's view, as it is her body and her child. Women understand this issue in a much more sincere way than men could ever hope to.

 

[Anima]

I don't have a problem with males having an opinion on abortion, but I do think part of this idea influences my view. I used to be pro life, but I changed position after coming to the conclusion (amongst other things) that since I will never be pregnant, I feel like my view should be weighted less against a woman's view, as it is her body and her child. Women understand this issue in a much more sincere way than men could ever hope to.

I completey agree, gabrielh. Men are entitled to opinions regarding any subject, but on this topic, their opinions are theoretical at best. This issue will never directly impact them t the extent it does women.

 

[Goobieman]

The fetus is not growing in you. Your body is not being altered. You are not the one who gets sick in the morning. The fetus in the female body only pertains to the female. What is the big deal with all the anti abortion males?

Silly us, thinking that everyone had a right to an opinion, and to express it.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I completey agree, gabrielh. Men are entitled to opinions regarding any subject, but on this topic, their opinions are theoretical at best. This issue will never directly impact them t the extent it does women.

It certainly does affect men directly.

At least 18 years of child support is more that something to scoff at.

How about this, men have no say on abortion and women can't use the courts to force men to pay child support.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I don't have a problem with males having an opinion on abortion, but I do think part of this idea influences my view. I used to be pro life, but I changed position after coming to the conclusion (amongst other things) that since I will never be pregnant, I feel like my view should be weighted less against a woman's view, as it is her body and her child. Women understand this issue in a much more sincere way than men could ever hope to.

So then you were never "pro-life" as it seems "life" was never a consideration for you, or you decided that the convienence of the woman, was more important than the innocent growing inside said woman.

 

[kaya'08]

So then you were never "pro-life" as it seems "life" was never a consideration for you, or you decided that the convienence of the woman, was more important than the innocent growing inside said woman.

This is the conclusion most pro-life people come to because of a lack of knowledge in the field of "biology". The fetus doesnt fall within the concise definition of a human, its merely a clump of cells with no concious, nervous system, or feelings, its the seed of the human, like the seed of a plant is not yet a plant. Abortion can only be carried out at this stage. Therefore it is the womens right, be it she changes her mind or was raped, to choose. Also, take the word of the female on this subject (gabrielh). A man will never fully understand.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

This is the conclusion most pro-life people come to because of a lack of knowledge in the field of "biology". The fetus doesnt fall within the concise definition of a human, its merely a clump of cells with no concious, nervous system, or feelings, its the seed of the human, like the seed of a plant is not yet a plant. Abortion can only be carried out at this stage. Therefore it is the womens right, be it she changes her mind or was raped, to choose. Also, take the word of the female on this subject (gabrielh). A man will never fully understand.

lack of knowledge?

Please show me how this is not human life, also please show me scientifically where the cut off line for "human" is.


Provide links please.

 

[Goobieman]

This is the conclusion most pro-life people come to because of a lack of knowledge in the field of "biology". The fetus doesnt fall within the concise definition of a human, its merely a clump of cells with no concious, nervous system, or feelings,

Human life is not defined by the posession of a conscious, nervous system, or feelings. A "person" might be, but not a human life.

The only time you have the right to end a human life is if your life is in immediate danger (or you live in TX and it is trying to steal your stuff -- great place, TX).

 

[Jerry]

I completey agree, gabrielh. Men are entitled to opinions regarding any subject, but on this topic, their opinions are theoretical at best. This issue will never directly impact them t the extent it does women.

See that's just false, and I've been there twice myself, so I know wtf I'm talking about.

 

[Tucker Case]

The only time you have the right to end a human life is if your life is in immediate danger.

Off topic: Does this position mean you are against the death penalty since inmates pose no immediate danger to the executioner?

Just curious.