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Yep, without enough education, it is hard to see the light even when it is shining in your eyes. It is nice to see that the Catholic Church has changed its tune on science. I would hate to see the next great thinker who happens to be a Catholic have to face torture and being burned at the stake.Cloud9 said:While H.S. education is good, not everyone receives one. College? Even less!
~15% of all adults 25+ do not have a H.S. degree
~72% of all adults 25+ do not have a college degree
Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp5_education
And that's not even speaking to the 'quality' of education. Nor to the large majority of the world's population that is uneducated. So one can't really expect that they not ignore science.
Fortunately, they're being guided to some small degree.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_sc/vatican_science
Vatican: Faithful Should Listen to Science
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Writer Fri Nov 4,10:12 AM ET
VATICAN CITY - A
Vatican cardinal said Thursday the faithful should listen to what secular modern science has to offer, warning that religion risks turning into "fundamentalism" if it ignores scientific reason.
My experience is that children in that kind of situation will rebel as soon as they are old enough to see for themselves how close minded their parents are. Some will follow in mom and dad's footsteps, but many will think for themselves eventually, and choose another religion, or no religion.ddoyle00 said:Plus a lot of the children are raised in families where they are not allowed to explore and ask questions about their natural curiosity. They are force-fed from day one that god is god and if you question this, you will go to hell. So the poor kids grow up and sometimes have exposureonly to other kids in the same boat. Then, just like viscous cycle cliche, they do it to their kids.
Science is never permitted in the household.
Heard it said once that we should never teach our non-human primates to communicate with us, but if we do we should not tell them that we think we evolved from them. They would be insulted.hiker said:Christians do not accept evolution (those that don't) because of the arrogant stance that we did not "come from monkeys". That, and a fear of change in personal beliefs and ways of seeing the world. That being said, the solution is to educate, not to reprimand. People can change under an overwhelming mountain of facts to the contrary, but not if you counter their arguments with insults. This will only cause them to defend their position with yet more fervor. And a head stuck farther under the sands of ignorance.
What good is a high literacy rate if all we have to read if propaganda?Cloud9 said:Some food for thought....
Here's the stats for adults at low literacy levels.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_adu_at_low_lit_lev
In the U.S. it's 49.6%.
Now take a look at religion in the USA.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/rel_rel&int=-1&id=us
So think about it, ~27% of the U.S. population has a college degree, while 73% does not while 49.6% have low literacy levels and 90% have a religious affiliation.
That means that for every 1 American, there are 3 other uneducated Americans (please note that I refrain from equating education to intelligence, which in my experience clearly are not one and the same)
And you expect that Christians (or any other religion) not ignore science?
UtahBill said:What good is a high literacy rate if all we have to read if propaganda?
utahbill said:Castro improved the literacy rate in Cuba, but only allowed the public to read what he wanted them to know. This isn't Cuba, where what they get is limited and tightly controlled, but the USA where there is tons of biased information that it is next to impossible to sort out.
utahbill said:Besides, most Christians I have discussed the NT with don't seem to know much about it, especially the parts that involve Christ. They know a lot of Paul, tho. So even the non-readers are being spoon fed by their church leaders. It's pathetic, I tell you....:3oops:
walrus said:It's all propaganda. We are just arguing about whose to use.
If you are unable to counter what your kid hears in school with your own instruction you aren't much of a parent.
I always find it absolutely hilarious when one of you rational, open-minded, free-thinkers comes out with one of these ignorant, prejudiced, stereotypical descriptions of large groups of people. Hypocrisy, thy name is Bill. Tell ya what, I am a Christian and I would be just delighted to have you gauge my level of biblical knowledge by your own impressive yardstick - so whip it out sailor.
You are right about one thing, it is pathetic. We might be talking about two different things, however.
utahbill said:Besides, most Christians I have discussed the NT with don't seem to know much about it, especially the parts that involve Christ. They know a lot of Paul, tho. So even the non-readers are being spoon fed by their church leaders. It's pathetic, I tell you....
utahbill said:I was raised a Baptist back in the 50's and 60's, in southeast Texas, and I heard a lot of ignorance, racism, and bigotry from the members of the many different churches that my mother tried out. I learned that there are a lot of different kinds of Baptist!
utahbill said:The preachers back then found a way to use the Bible to justify what they were teaching. Things are not that much different now, just different targets. Instead of teaching us that Blacks bear the mark of Cain (justifying our bad treatment of them), that Jews are Christ killers (encouraging hatred of them),
utahbill said:we hear hatred and venom toward gays, lesbians, pro-lifers, etc
walrus said:The nerve you stepped on was the one where you made a blanket statement about "most" Christians:
And then go on to state that your opinion about "most" of the 1.5 billion Christians on Earth was formed through:
So, you have extrapolated various facts about "most" Christians based on Baptists in southeast Texas. What a remarkable cross-section of Christian belief!
There is a great difference between moral disagreement (and even condemnation) and hatred or venom. Although I don't dispute that there is hatred and venom on both sides of each of those issues, it is also rather popular to dismiss any disagreement with regards to the moral implications of abortion, homosexuality, etc... as hatred automatically because that relieves the need for debate about the issue.
UtahBill said:Well, you have misled yourself.You are reading into a post things that were not said. I helped you by not making it very clear for you. I should have said "many of the Christians that I have debated with" instead of "Besides, most Christians I have discussed the NT with". Essentially the same thing. That is a fairly small cross section, and was the sum total of who I was talking about.
utahbill said:It's pathetic, I tell you....
utahbill said:From that you derived that I am a rational open minded free thinker, and I thank you for the compliment.
utahbill said:It wasn't just the churches of my youth. I watch the TV, read the news, and debate with other Christians.
utahbill said:I spent an entire day during a road trip discussing religion with a co-worker who calls himself a NT Christian, but he was strangely unaware of many of the teachings of Christ. He was my age, mid 50's at the time, and goes to church every Sunday. I jokingly suggested that he get his naps at home from now on, as he was missing a lot.
utahbill said:The very foundation of all Christian churches should be the teachings of Christ.
utahbill said:So where do the evangelicals get their hate messages? Why do they stand on street corners with signs of hate against other Christian churches? I saw one with a sign about a year ago that said "the Pope is a communist". What the heck is that about?
utahbill said:I agree that the majority of Christians are not like that, but you know how it goes, it only takes a few to give the rest a bad name.
walrus said:Fair enough, although I would probably not have had the visceral reation that I had if you had simply left off:
Which transformed a rational statement into a statement of disdain and contempt. (or could we say hatred and venom?)
The first statement was sarcasm. The jury is still out as to whether it actually applies.
ditto
I have known Democrats and Republicans who had absolutely no idea what "their" party stands for. I have spoken to protestors who have no idea what they are protesting. There are members of any group which have no idea about that group or in fact why they are members. This is an indictment of that particular member, not the group as a whole.
Out of curiousity, what is your current religious belief? I always listen with a raised eyebrow when a person who is not a member of a group starts telling that group how they should interpret their beliefs.
First and foremost it is about free speech. You are not required to agree with it, like it, or listen to it. I disagree with it as well, but I can understand some of the beliefs that lead to these messages (even though I don't accept them myself). Always remember, for every Christian you see on a street corner with a hate sign, there are probably 100,000 who would never dream of doing such a thing.
Yes, I know how it goes. It is called stereotyping and prejudice.
GarzaUK said:Its worth noting that in the medeival days the church burnt people alive because astromoners said the earth evolved around the sun, not the other way round. Religion has always attacked science because they feel it lessens their influence, they have felt threaten by it.
As the years go one we are getting more and more prove that we are not that different from other animals. Evolution is nowadays what the movement of the Earth was in those days. Religion seems to have a natural resistance to change.
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