Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?

[George_Washington]

My definition of a "perfect world" is obvious. If God is perfect, and if She made the world, it's perfect if and only if every detail is exactily as He planned it to be, ie, She doesn't think She's made any mistakes.

My own personal opinions on what a perfect universe would be are not only irrelevant to this discussion, they're totally irrelevant period, since the universe is what it is, regardless of my opinions.

Ah, but if you don't know what a perfect Universe is, than how do you know that this one isn't perfect? How can you judge this Universe if you have absolutely no conceivable comparison of which to compare it to?

Just because God is perfect doesn't mean everything he creates has to be perfect, too. The purpose of this world isn't to be perfect; this is a temporary place for us to reside until we make the transition to Heaven, Hell, or to be re born in this world again.

Yeah it does, if your God is perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent, as I just pointed out. I take it you're conceding the point since all you can do is say "see, we have free will" over and anon?

lol I'm not conceding anything. Refer to what I said above. I just shattered your whole argument because neither you or anybody else can define what perfection is.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

You cannot prove that something did not exist. That's proving a universal negative.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Perfect means not having the ability or the desire to act in error. It means without mistakes or error. God would have an error in character if he deliberately created suffering when it didn't need to exist.

 

[George_Washington]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Perfect means not having the ability or the desire to act in error. It means without mistakes or error. God would have an error in character if he deliberately created suffering when it didn't need to exist.

Ok so describe what a perfect Universe would be without suffering. Tell me what we would do from a day to day basis.

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Now why are you getting so angry over this? I'm not saying this is how God operates; I am just speculating on the subject. You atheists want to absolutely say that no God exists and that it's not possible for him to exist.

How can you say that when we are far from fully understanding physics and the nature our Universe?

Furthermore, why does it bother you so much if we speculate on the nature of a God who have faith in or not? Imagination is a great thing to have and to explore. I just don't understand you atheists sometimes. It just seems like nothing but anger and intolerance from some of you people, which is why we choose not to hang out with you.

actually...Im not angry at all....nor am I atheist....heh

Speculate all you want....just dont pretend its fact.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

prove that there has never been enough water in underground caverns. and the dating methods for ice cores are based on the assumption that nothing affected the ice at all. in other words, those ice cores are only valid if you consider that the poles are a closed system. otherwise, the measurements are invalid. in fact, that is another possible argument against ALL dating methods. the poles are where all the deposits from the magnetic fields ends up. that in and of itself is enough to distort the measurements on ice aging.
also, why can't we mix science and philosophy? you do.

what is the "conflict" between Genesis 6 and 7?

As I said, it's impossible for there to have been a period of time in which the Earth had no ice caps because that would mean that every inch of the Earth had to be above 10 degrees celsius. Impossible! When did I mix science and theology? The conflict between Geneisis 6 and 7 is the number of animals God told Noah to bring on the ark..honestly..do I have to do all of the work for you?

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

That's the problem I have. Such a supposition is logically unparsimonious. You cannot say something exisits, put something in it, and then claim victory. In order for you to say either exist, you have to first provide evidence.

I will be waiting for this magical dimension in which no time exists that God resides in all the while interfering with time.

Is it 4 pm in God's time zone when it's 3 am here? The questions, questions!

Unless of course God exists within the singularity of a black hole :lol: Time and light cease to exist at the singularity.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

As I said, it's impossible for there to have been a period of time in which the Earth had no ice caps because that would mean that every inch of the Earth had to be above 10 degrees celsius. Impossible! When did I mix science and theology? The conflict between Geneisis 6 and 7 is the number of animals God told Noah to bring on the ark..honestly..do I have to do all of the work for you?

6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
this looks like a contradiction AT FIRST GLANCE. but, looking at it through a legal lens, verse 6:19 only sets a minimum amount on it. there is no maximum mentioned. then God specifies exactly what Noah is to do in verse 7:2. he puts an exact number on which kind of animals he is to bring in. this does not break the rules stated in 6:19.

as for the ice thing: with a huge canopy of evaporated water surrounding the earth, wouldnt there be a more even distribution of the sun's warmth?

and finally the science and theology mix, I said science and PHILOSOPHY. if you ask me, all evolution is is philosophy disguised as science.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Ah, but if you don't know what a perfect Universe is, than how do you know that this one isn't perfect? How can you judge this Universe if you have absolutely no conceivable comparison of which to compare it to?

If you ever learn how to read, here's what I said. Save it and you can come back to it and figure it out.

"My definition of a "perfect world" is obvious. If God is perfect, and if She made the world, it's perfect if and only if every detail is exactily as He planned it to be, ie, She doesn't think She's made any mistakes."

Nowhere did I claim the universe was perfect.

Nowhere did I claim the universe was not.

IMO the word perfect does not apply to the universe, not in the sense I'm using it in application to "God", ie, establishing a nominal congruence with the wishes of the Creator. Since the Universe is not an artifact of an intelligent being, the word "perfect" as used above is totally not applicable.

Just because God is perfect doesn't mean everything he creates has to be perfect, too.

Whatever, you're shadow boxing, and losing. Go back to use of the word as I defined if you seek to a coherent discussion. Me, I generally tend to bite fingers that are trying to stuff words in my mouth.

lol I'm not conceding anything. Refer to what I said above. I just shattered your whole argument because neither you or anybody else can define what perfection is.

Well, you're wrong there. I defined the word "perfect" in a manner that perfectly fits the purposes of this discussion. You just can't accept it because you can't refute it.

 

[MSgt]

"Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/god?"

Perhaps it is because we have an overwhelming amount of historical violence by men who would pervert religion to serve their purposes against other people. The ease with which today’s Americans of diverse faiths interact in social settings has allowed us to forget that our ancestors, in their homelands, massacred one another over the contents of the communion cup, or slaughtered Jews and called it God’s desire, or delivered their faith to their colonies with Bibles and breech-loading rifles. Some even brought their hatreds to our shores, but America conquered their bigotries over the generations—although even we have not vanquished intolerance completely. Still, for most contemporary Americans, religion has become as comfortable as it remains comforting. But human history is largely a violent contest of gods and the men who served them, and our age is the latest, intense serial in a saga that shaped our earliest myths. This latest saga being Islam.

 

[dragonslayer]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

and whats more, many Christians today forget this very important passage in the Bible:

1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I might not be the best at following this verse, but at least I try. I walked into a church where visitors were quickly removed from their seats if they ever sat in a member's favorite spot. of course I quickly left and went to a church down the way where people were a bit more hospitable. even so, I would like to go there and speak on this particular chapter in the Bible. maybe they would realize what they were doing was going to make them more like the church of Laodicea than anything. why are so many Christians so glum? the JOY of the Lord is our strength! why should we be unhappy if we are so sure of where we are going? and why should we sit by and watch the world go on a one way trip to the lake of fire? I think that we should live up to our name: "Christ like". if we are to be like Christ, then we should be joyful, loving, and sacrifice our lives for Him. I hope that I can see more Christians that are like Christ. in closing, here is an invitation to my church to all of you from the Chattanooga TN area:

​

​

thanks you made my day and proved my argumemt.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

as for the ice thing: with a huge canopy of evaporated water surrounding the earth, wouldnt there be a more even distribution of the sun's warmth?

Ah...the worn out and old "ice canopy" game.

So, let's see, according to this theory there's a "canopy" of ice and/or water orbiting the planet before the Big Wetness happened. An interesting theory.

Hmmmm...a typical value for the speed of an orbiting body is about 8 km/s, or 8000 m/s.

So a 1 kilo chunk of ice in the "canopy" would have a kinetic energy of

ke = 0.5 mv^2 = 0.5 x 1 kg x (8000 m/s)^2 = 32x10^6 joules.

Hmmm...that's a lot of energy for a little kilo...and let's see, how many cubic meters of water did this "canopy" contain? Who knows? The oceans today contain approximately 1.5 trillion cubic meters, let's use that number.

A cubic meter of water contains a thousand liters, at a mass of 1 kg/l, so a cubic meter of water masses a thousand kg.

So, the energy deposted on the earth's surface would be the kinetic energy per kilo (I'll ignore the gravitational potential energy) times the number of kilos so we get,

32 x 10^6 x 10^3 x 1.5 x 10^15 =

48 x 10^24 joules.

By comparison, a megaton of TNT is defined to be an energy release of 10^15 joules.

So the collapse of the "canopy" would have released the thermal energy release equivent of 48 billion 1 megaton hydrogen bombs on the surface of the planet.

Anyone here think a wood boat would survive that most entertaining experience?

Anyone think the falling "water" would be anything but superheated steam?

So much for the canopy notion. God's laws of orbital mechanics and energy conservation forbid it outright.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.

7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
this looks like a contradiction AT FIRST GLANCE. but, looking at it through a legal lens, verse 6:19 only sets a minimum amount on it. there is no maximum mentioned. then God specifies exactly what Noah is to do in verse 7:2. he puts an exact number on which kind of animals he is to bring in. this does not break the rules stated in 6:19.

How sneaky of you to leave out verse 20. Genesis 6:19-20 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive." Genesis 7:2-3 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth." The fact that fouls are named as unclean animals in Leviticus is interesting.

as for the ice thing: with a huge canopy of evaporated water surrounding the earth, wouldnt there be a more even distribution of the sun's warmth?

LOL. Again, water doesn't evaporate and simply sit idely in the atmosphere for 3000 years. And no, it wouldn't make every inch of earth above 10 degress celsius. By the way, as someone else pointed out the "canopy" would be in orbit around the earth and have a tremendous speed. If it suddenly decelerated into the atmosphere it would turn to steam on it's way down not to mention the fact that solar flares would tear this "canopy" of yours apart.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

How sneaky of you to leave out verse 20. Genesis 6:19-20 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive."

like I said before, chapter 6 applies the minimums.

The fact that fouls are named as unclean animals in Leviticus is interesting.

you definitely need to reread Leviticus. you cannot sacrifice an animal that is unclean, or eat one that is unclean. you can sacrifice quail and pigeons and many other animals of the air.

LOL. Again, water doesn't evaporate and simply sit idely in the atmosphere for 3000 years. And no, it wouldn't make every inch of earth above 10 degress celsius. By the way, as someone else pointed out the "canopy" would be in orbit around the earth and have a tremendous speed. If it suddenly decelerated into the atmosphere it would turn to steam on it's way down not to mention the fact that solar flares would tear this "canopy" of yours apart.

you put a stoneware cookie sheet and it does what? DIFFUSES the heat to evenly cook your food. that cookie sheet is only a few inches thick. exactly how thick would this canopy be? plenty large enough to diffuse that heat. add to the fact that to stay in orbit, it would have to be below the stratosphere, the steam would recondense soon and fall to earth. given that it would be below the stratosphere, the ozone layer would protect it from solar flares.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

[ put a stoneware cookie sheet and it does what? DIFFUSES the heat to evenly cook your food. that cookie sheet is only a few inches thick. exactly how thick would this canopy be? plenty large enough to diffuse that heat. add to the fact that to stay in orbit, it would have to be below the stratosphere, the steam would recondense soon and fall to earth. given that it would be below the stratosphere, the ozone layer would protect it from solar flares.

Hmmm...so can you tell us how Noah "heard" God tell him to build his boat again? I always thought it meant he used his ears, but if what you say about the canopy is true, every single friggin' animal with ears was stone deaf.

Got any clue what kind of shock waves solid objects travelling at Mach 25 will generate in air as thick as it is at 35,000 feet? Then there's the friction issue, of course. The inner boundary layer of the canopy air stream will have a temperature of thousands of degrees, somewhat above the boiling point of water, and the friction will eventually entrain the air to move at the same speed as the canopy and it will also cause the canopy to slow down. Nothing free, of course, the kinetic energy lost to friction will simply show up as hotter air.

Net effect, you still wind up with air at the surface far too hot permit life.

Not to mention you now have some kind of "canopy" tearing up the air in the stratosphere. How's the ozone layer supposed to form?

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Hmmm...so can you tell us how Noah "heard" God tell him to build his boat again? I always thought it meant he used his ears, but if what you say about the canopy is true, every single friggin' animal with ears was stone deaf.

the canopy would not affect hearing. and if the canopy is traveling in geosynchronous orbit, those shock waves would only be for as long as it takes for the air to reach equal speed as the rotation of the earth. assuming that God created the world, he could create the air under the canopy to move at the same speed as everything. then the law of inertia will keep the whole thing moving.

Net effect, you still wind up with air at the surface far too hot permit life.

new net effect, perfect atmosphere. plus the fact that your idea of the early atmosphere makes it impossible for life to survive too.

Not to mention you now have some kind of "canopy" tearing up the air in the stratosphere. How's the ozone layer supposed to form?

they are moving at the same speed and therefore the canopy won't tear up the air.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

you definitely need to reread Leviticus. you cannot sacrifice an animal that is unclean, or eat one that is unclean. you can sacrifice quail and pigeons and many other animals of the air.

You definatley need to reread the bible. First of all, Genesis 6 says TWO OF EVERY KIND OF ANIMAL including birds. Genesis 7 says 7 of every kind of bird.

you put a stoneware cookie sheet and it does what? DIFFUSES the heat to evenly cook your food. that cookie sheet is only a few inches thick. exactly how thick would this canopy be? plenty large enough to diffuse that heat. add to the fact that to stay in orbit, it would have to be below the stratosphere, the steam would recondense soon and fall to earth. given that it would be below the stratosphere, the ozone layer would protect it from solar flares.

LOL. A stoneware cookie sheet is not made out of water and there is no way that the entire earth would be above 10 degrees celsius even with the canopy because the suns rays do not hit the entire planet evenly. Not to mention the fact that water would not remain cool when in the direct path of solar flares and the heat of the sun. Again, water doesn't evaporate and simply sit idely in the atmosphere for 3000 years.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

You definatley need to reread the bible. First of all, Genesis 6 says TWO OF EVERY KIND OF ANIMAL including birds. Genesis 7 says 7 of every kind of bird. and since you don't seem to be reading my posts throughly enough here it is a size bigger:

Genesis 6 is the minimum that God would require. since chapter 7 met that requirement, it did NOT break it.

LOL. A stoneware cookie sheet is not made out of water and there is no way that the entire earth would be above 10 degrees celsius even with the canopy because the suns rays do not hit the entire planet evenly. Not to mention the fact that water would not remain cool when in the direct path of solar flares and the heat of the sun. Again, water doesn't evaporate and simply sit idely in the atmosphere for 3000 years.

here we have where you are arguing scientific arguments with scientific illiteracy. but if it is placed there and is already in geo synchronous orbit, it will simply catch the evaporating water in it's path. this will keep the evaporating water in the air.
and a layer of water that is that thick IS thick enough to diffuse that much light.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

Genesis 6 is the minimum that God would require. since chapter 7 met that requirement, it did NOT break it.

LOL its not a minimum. They're two conflicting commands.

here we have where you are arguing scientific arguments with scientific illiteracy. but if it is placed there and is already in geo synchronous orbit, it will simply catch the evaporating water in it's path. this will keep the evaporating water in the air.
and a layer of water that is that thick IS thick enough to diffuse that much light.

ROFL I'm scientifically illeterate?! Thats hilarious comming from someoene who 1. Expects people to believe that water simply evaporated and sat idely in the atmosphere for 3000 years with absolutley 0 scientific explaination as to HOW that is possible. Oh riiiiight..it was "placed there" :rofl 2. Ignored the fact that such a large amount of water would prevent the ozone layer from forming 3. Ignores the fact that water would no longer be in liquid form 4. That such a layer would cause mass extinction due to blocking the light and by the way it would only cause the earth to get colder instead of being warmer which means the polar caps would be larger instead of non-existent.

 

[VTA]

The bible is a collection of stories from a myriad of races and beliefs. A lot of it is representative.

The bible was written in three languages (Hebrew, Aramic and Greek) by about 40 authors and is remarkably consistent given the number of authors and the amount of time it took to write, about 1500-1600 years.

It's moral values have not changed, though man has shown a propensity to allow morals to be subject to change.

A true undermining is to believe that something as monumental as the bible could be interpreted on such a grand scale and be wittled down to being a product of naivete.

Ego tells us that we are the grand epoch of our civilization, but lets not forget that everything we accomplish is the by-product of our predecessors inventions and discoveries.

 

[dthmstr254]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

LOL its not a minimum. They're two conflicting commands.

then you have a very bad understanding of the Hebrew. and since that is true, I will ask my Hebrew teacher this question, since you don't like my answer. and when he explains all those wierd words to me, I will post his answer. for tonight, this part of the debate is recessed.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

then you have a very bad understanding of the Hebrew. and since that is true, I will ask my Hebrew teacher this question, since you don't like my answer. and when he explains all those wierd words to me, I will post his answer. for tonight, this part of the debate is recessed.

Not quite. The JPS translates Genesis 6:19-20 as "And of all that lives, of all flesh, you shall take two of each into the ark to keep alive with you; they shall be male and female. From birds of every kind, cattle of every kind, every kind of creeping thing on earth, two of each shall come to you to stay alive." and Genesis 7:2-3 "Of every clean animal you shall take seven pairs, males and their mates, and of every animal that is not clean, two, a male and it's mate; of the birds of the sky also, seven pairs, male and female, to keep seed alive upon all the earth."

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god believing people have a problem with religion/g

the canopy would not affect hearing. and if the canopy is traveling in geosynchronous orbit, those shock waves would only be for as long as it takes for the air to reach equal speed as the rotation of the earth. assuming that God created the world, he could create the air under the canopy to move at the same speed as everything. then the law of inertia will keep the whole thing moving.

Well, which is it, geosynchronous orbit, at an altitude of 22,000 miles, or in the stratosphere, at an altitude of 7 miles? And if you're going geosynchronous, my last calc showing an orbital speed of 8 km/s would have to be modified to take care of the full energy balance. You have to add enormous amounts of potential energy to get to GEO from LEO. So you still have radiant steam, not rain, in your deluge, and the wood boat still doesn't cut it.

I can see that the course took in orbital mechanics is of the same high quality as your chemistry course.

Got any idea of how dense the air is at GEO?

new net effect, perfect atmosphere. plus the fact that your idea of the early atmosphere makes it impossible for life to survive too.

I haven't stated any ideas for the primordial atmosphere.

At a guess, it doesn't matter what the original atmosphere was. The Mars-sized proto-planet that smacked the earth and created the moon both destroyed that atmosphere and heated the surface rocks to a molten state, destroying any potential initial life.

The atmosphere after the whack was almost certainly outgassed CO2, N2, and H20.

So what? We're talking about the big lie the bible has about Noah.

 

[Howard Beale]

You could try looking up, or even around...:roll:

Omnipotent - having unlimited power and/or authority.

Omniscient - having infinite awareness

Perfect - without flaw.

In the vernacular of the peasantry, if God is omniscient, omnipotent, and poifect, he knows EVERYTHING, he can do ANYTHING, and he doesn't make mistakes.

Which means free will is not possible.

Since free will is not possible, sin is not possible.


OUCH! so much for the guilt merchants. And it's the guilt merchants and the holier-than-thous that give us independent free willed atheists such a pain.

“God made man in his own image and likeness and man returned the favor.”

I am simply saying that God is not a he or a she or an it. We fall into the trap of defining God to fit our purposes and then responding accordingly. In the instance of your post, you chose to use a word that is rooted in the concept of human limitation (omnipotent), another word rooted in human knowledge (omniscient) and a third word rooted in human inadequacy (perfection). The most significant and yet common error we make is to limit God to human characteristics and their opposites. We often project that God exists with “power” in the sense that humans have power. Omnipotence only exists as the opposite of powerlessness. Omniscience only exists as the opposite of being void of knowledge. Perfection exists only as an opposite of imperfection. My understanding of God is that God exists outside the human realm of opposites.

You are addressing and rebutting (and rightly so) a specific concept of God. My point – perhaps poorly made – was that this concept is not the only understanding of God. There are understandings of God that are not incompatible with human free will.

 

[George_Washington]

If you ever learn how to read, here's what I said. Save it and you can come back to it and figure it out.

"My definition of a "perfect world" is obvious. If God is perfect, and if She made the world, it's perfect if and only if every detail is exactily as He planned it to be, ie, She doesn't think She's made any mistakes."

Nowhere did I claim the universe was perfect.

Nowhere did I claim the universe was not.

The Universe WAS made according to God's plan. We accept it on faith that although he allows us free will, he can also see into the future. It may not be impossible if you think that maybe he's outside of our time line or that he sees everything happening at once. I'm not saying this is how it works but this is where faith comes in.