Why Did The Left Fail to Employ Federalism Against Trump?

[Captain Adverse]

That sounds like a fantastic system.

Unfortunately, under our current system, the Executive Branch exercises both law-making powers and judicial powers via it's regulatory agencies.

Every regulatory agency has been created by Act of Congress. The President does not create any agencies.

I would be thrilled if Congress had attempted to reduce the powers of the President to those determined by the Constitution by taking back for themselves the powers accorded to them under the Constitution.

The President is only using the powers given to him by the Constitution. He is the Administrative head of government. When Congress creates an Agency, it then falls under the authority of the President.

A simple reading of Article II would inform you.

I wish that were the case

The powers of Congress are listed in Article I.

You'd see their power is principally that of the purse (taxation and spending) and the creation of Laws. Via these powers they can create agencies and departments, which are then part of the government Administration, falling under the Article II powers of the President.

So if you want to see a reduction in the massive growth of government, don't blame whomever holds the Office of President. Hold your Congress-critters to blame for the massive and barely controllable Agencies of the Administration. Moreover, thank the Democrats under the FDR Administration for the origins of that massive growth.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Moderator's Warning:

The Loft is not for heated discussion or personal sniping.

I agree. I did not even realize this was posted in the loft. Perhaps moving it to the General Political section would be appropriate?

 

[Phys251]

They did use Federalism, they used it to enact Covid guidelines that they thought would make their citizens more controllable.

Decent governors wanted to keep their citizens alive. It was because of Trump and his Republican minions that over 600,000 Americans are dead.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Decent governors wanted to keep their citizens alive. It was because of Trump and his Republican minions that over 600,000 Americans are dead.

Then Cuomo, Pritzker, Whitmer, and Newsome must not have because their role in sending active Covid patients to nursing homes and contributed to that body count by the thousands.

 

[Phys251]

Then Cuomo, Pritzker, Whitmer, and Newsome

America has 5% of the world's population but about a quarter of its COVID deaths, thanks to your (not my) president. Your whataboutism is DISMISSED.

 

[OpportunityCost]

America has 5% of the world's population but about a quarter of its COVID deaths, thanks to your (not my) president. Your whataboutism is DISMISSED.

They made choices as governors that contributed to that count, its not JUST about Trump, its not whataboutism, its directly relevant to what's being discussed.

 

[Phys251]

They made choices as governors that contributed to that count, its not JUST about Trump

Instead of your president being a President, he tried to wash the blood off his hands and send his national crisis to the governors where it didn't belong.

Your president will always have those deaths on his hand, and none of your angry insistence otherwise will change that.

 

[highroller]

Because the left wants political power to be centralized as much as possible,

So does the Right. Just for different purposes.

 

[highroller]

Then Cuomo, Pritzker, Whitmer, and Newsome must not have because their role in sending active Covid patients to nursing homes and contributed to that body count by the thousands.

This whole conspiracy theory has been debunked already

 

[OpportunityCost]

This whole conspiracy theory has been debunked already

LOL, its a fact that they did it. How exactly has it been debunked? What lie are you going to tell for them?

 

[Phys251]

LOL, its a fact that they did it. How exactly has it been debunked? What lie are you going to tell for them?

That has already been addressed in this thread.

 

[OpportunityCost]

That has already been addressed in this thread.

Not that specific issue, no.

 

[Sagittarius83]

I don’t dare get into details but the left never employed federalism against Trump because of the real political powers in the US. These are of course the video gaming multinationals and the spaghetti cartels.

I must stop because I have already said too much!

 

[American]

That sounds like a fantastic system.

Unfortunately, under our current system, the Executive Branch exercises both law-making powers and judicial powers via it's regulatory agencies.



I would be thrilled if Congress had attempted to reduce the powers of the President to those determined by the Constitution by taking back for themselves the powers accorded to them under the Constitution.



I wish that were the case

That's Congress' fault, they are too lazy to do their job of legislating the TOUGH ISSUES. They shirk their responsibilities by empowering Executive agencies with power to regulate, and CHARGE FEES TO PAY THEMSELVES. Ben Sasse has mad the point numerous times. Congress is filled with asskissing partisan do-nothings. I'm not sure what judicial powers the executive exercises.

 

[American]

I don’t dare get into details but the left never employed federalism against Trump because of the real political powers in the US. These are of course the video gaming multinationals and the spaghetti cartels.

I must stop because I have already said too much!

The Left spent 4 years investigating and impeaching Trump. **** them for missing the opportunity to legislate and act like a real Congress.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Now that the Trump Administration is over, I'm periodically (It's tough to think for any length of time when you have kids ) reflecting back on what my expectations had been v what actually occurred. Trump was a bit more destructive to our Constitutional order than I thought, and, long term, has done significant damage to the GOP as I feared. His Judges were far better (from a Conservative point of view) than I had initially feared, and at least he didn't try to hike taxes.

One thing that I had hoped for didn't happen: although the Left was incensed by his rise and bitterly opposed to everything he did, they never leaned on Federalism to stop him. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to seize power back from the Executive for the Legislature in a major way.... but they seemed (looking back) not to have done so. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to reinvigorate the power of the States they controlled to set their own policy, seeking to prove (though I would have personally been unlikely to agree) that Democratic policies were superior by enacting what they couldn't get at the Federal Level at the State Level.... but they didn't, really. We never got a Single Payer System in California. New York never experimented with 90% tax rates (and, the one time the Trump administration effectively did raise tax rates on upper income folks, Democrats in New York got very upset about it; repealing that decision is now a priority of Nancy Pelosi's).

Progressives had a tool, written right into the Constitution and immediately available, to reduce the impact of Trump and Republicans on their lives, and, individual states and localities may have made their own decisions, but, I didn't see the appeals to our Federalist structure that I expected once they realized that would have been a far more effective means of #resisting.

Why?

Unlike the federal government, the states must balance their budgets.

 

[Bullseye]

Now that the Trump Administration is over, I'm periodically (It's tough to think for any length of time when you have kids ) reflecting back on what my expectations had been v what actually occurred. Trump was a bit more destructive to our Constitutional order than I thought, and, long term, has done significant damage to the GOP as I feared. His Judges were far better (from a Conservative point of view) than I had initially feared, and at least he didn't try to hike taxes.

One thing that I had hoped for didn't happen: although the Left was incensed by his rise and bitterly opposed to everything he did, they never leaned on Federalism to stop him. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to seize power back from the Executive for the Legislature in a major way.... but they seemed (looking back) not to have done so. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to reinvigorate the power of the States they controlled to set their own policy, seeking to prove (though I would have personally been unlikely to agree) that Democratic policies were superior by enacting what they couldn't get at the Federal Level at the State Level.... but they didn't, really. We never got a Single Payer System in California. New York never experimented with 90% tax rates (and, the one time the Trump administration effectively did raise tax rates on upper income folks, Democrats in New York got very upset about it; repealing that decision is now a priority of Nancy Pelosi's).

Progressives had a tool, written right into the Constitution and immediately available, to reduce the impact of Trump and Republicans on their lives, and, individual states and localities may have made their own decisions, but, I didn't see the appeals to our Federalist structure that I expected once they realized that would have been a far more effective means of #resisting.

Why?

actually the left DID play the federalism card on Trump. Early on in the pandemic Trump claimed he had the authority to order openings and closings in the states; several governors said "no you don't" and acted on their own.

Also, IF you think a little you'd realize that federalism is the Dems worst nightmare - they continually strive to pull as much power away from the states and confer it on federal agencies and bureaus. Prime example: HR 1 the alleged "For the People" bill.

 

[Bullseye]

Sure, but switching to the argument (for example) that the Executive branch didn't have the right to set Legislative Policy would have strengthened their position, by requiring the ascent of the Democratic-controlled House. They weren't willing to give up the Imperial Presidency to oppose Trump.

That WAS their policy.

 

[j brown's body]

The federalist approach to our elections contributed to preventing him from seizing power in the wake of his loss. Now GOP state leaders are working hard to assure that doesn't happen again.

 

[joko104]

Why is this thread in the loft?

 

[NWRatCon]

Moderator's Warning:

The Loft is not for heated discussion or personal sniping.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Why is this thread in the loft?

To bash conservatives in a nicer way.

 

[NWRatCon]

Now that the Trump Administration is over, I'm periodically (It's tough to think for any length of time when you have kids ) reflecting back on what my expectations had been v what actually occurred. Trump was a bit more destructive to our Constitutional order than I thought, and, long term, has done significant damage to the GOP as I feared. His Judges were far better (from a Conservative point of view) than I had initially feared, and at least he didn't try to hike taxes.

One thing that I had hoped for didn't happen: although the Left was incensed by his rise and bitterly opposed to everything he did, they never leaned on Federalism to stop him. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to seize power back from the Executive for the Legislature in a major way.... but they seemed (looking back) not to have done so. I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to reinvigorate the power of the States they controlled to set their own policy, seeking to prove (though I would have personally been unlikely to agree) that Democratic policies were superior by enacting what they couldn't get at the Federal Level at the State Level.... but they didn't, really. We never got a Single Payer System in California. New York never experimented with 90% tax rates (and, the one time the Trump administration effectively did raise tax rates on upper income folks, Democrats in New York got very upset about it; repealing that decision is now a priority of Nancy Pelosi's).

Progressives had a tool, written right into the Constitution and immediately available, to reduce the impact of Trump and Republicans on their lives, and, individual states and localities may have made their own decisions, but, I didn't see the appeals to our Federalist structure that I expected once they realized that would have been a far more effective means of #resisting.

Why?

I'm going to opine at the outset that this is a silly argument, inaccurate, and really doesn't belong in the Loft.

First is describing it as "the left". That's such a meaningless label, especially in this context. Who is "the left"? The green party? They don't control any government. Progressives? Who constitutes that camp, and where do they hold sway? The framing is all wrong.

Second, where Democrats controlled power, they did use federalism to #resist, so the premise is also inaccurate. Many State leaders took action to protect their citizens from the national pandemic that Trump refused to address. Most States took action to preserve voting opportunities in the 2020 election. Progressive States have enacted climate policies that Trump undercut. So, that assertion is a fail from the get-go.

Third, you say "I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to seize power back from the Executive for the Legislature in a major way." I agree, but what does that have to do with the topic: federalism? It's a non sequitur.

Finally, the specific complaints about taxes, etc., are nonsense. They're not policies "the left" pursues.

All in all, this is structured as a troll thread Intended to engender exactly the kind of reactive posts it has and that have no purpose in the Loft.

 

[cpwill]

I'm going to opine at the outset that this is a silly argument, inaccurate, and really doesn't belong in the Loft.

First is describing it as "the left". That's such a meaningless label, especially in this context. Who is "the left"? The green party? They don't control any government. Progressives? Who constitutes that camp, and where do they hold sway? The framing is all wrong.

Second, where Democrats controlled power, they did use federalism to #resist, so the premise is also inaccurate. Many State leaders took action to protect their citizens from the national pandemic that Trump refused to address. Most States took action to preserve voting opportunities in the 2020 election. Progressive States have enacted climate policies that Trump undercut. So, that assertion is a fail from the get-go.

Third, you say "I had hoped that Democrats would use this opportunity to seize power back from the Executive for the Legislature in a major way." I agree, but what does that have to do with the topic: federalism? It's a non sequitur.

Finally, the specific complaints about taxes, etc., are nonsense. They're not policies "the left" pursues.

All in all, this is structured as a troll thread Intended to engender exactly the kind of reactive posts it has and that have no purpose in the Loft.

Well, I think I don't think I will get quite as personal as you, but, if you don't understand how federalism impacts the relationship between the executive and the legislature, I might suggest reading up on the separation of powers. Federalism is not simply about division of power across local, state, and the Federal government; but also about the division of power between different branches of government and those levels.

And no this is not a troll thread. I had honestly hoped that the reaction to Donald Trump's presidency would include an attempt to pull power back from the executive to congress, and back from the Federal Government to the states, to get it away from him. That would have been a classic example of the founders intent; faction checking faction.

 

[NWRatCon]

Well, I think I don't think I will get quite as personal as you, but, if you don't understand how federalism impacts the relationship between the executive and the legislature, I might suggest reading up on the separation of powers. Federalism is not simply about division of power across local, state, and the Federal government; but also about the division of power between different branches of government and those levels.

And no this is not a troll thread. I had honestly hoped that the reaction to Donald Trump's presidency would include an attempt to pull power back from the executive to congress, and back from the Federal Government to the states, to get it away from him. That would have been a classic example of the founders intent; faction checking faction.

Nothing personal at all, my friend. I disagree with your assertions. Moreover, the "separation of powers" within the government is not federalism - by definition (you know I'm a sticklerfor definitions). It is, however the plan of the Constitution. So I get your point. Indeed, the legislative branch is outlined in Article I for a reason.

I happen to agree that Congress, as a body, has over several administrations, failed to wrest its authority back from the Executive, and that this has been detrimental to the functioning of government. Indeed, it was a particular fault of the Republican leadership in both houses of Congress, who could have, with principle, taken some of that authority back. They similarly failed during the Gulf War abuses.

I think it important to note, however, and contrary to your premise, that this is best done by the members of the same party. Then it is a point of governing, not politics. It is, I think, disingenuous, to suggest that this is the fault of the opposition - regardless of party affiliation. This is matter of governmental structure.

Indeed, I think that we could have gone a great deal toward your goal if the party of the Executive had seriously considered the articles of impeachment, or the results of the Mueller investigation, when those were first at issue. Moreover, the proper approach to the January 6 events would have been to move forward with bipartisan support with the Commission that was proposed. It was right there, and it is hard to argue against fact-finding on the subject when Congress itself was the object of the attack. Again, party politics won out over principle.

I agree with the thrust of your complaints, but I think the effort to tar "the left" with the failure is inappropriate.