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Why did every witness lie and commit perjury?

CriticalThought

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I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

They didn’t lie. The Trump Administration has taken gaslighting to a new level, and his base is buying it.

Everyone else is lying. The man on record for lying 11,000 times must be telling the truth.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

Switch it to Oblamo and every single witness would have told the truth. Weird world we live in.
 
They didn't need to lie. None of them had anything new to say. Not a single fact in two weeks.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?
I don't think it's an issue of lying or committing perjury. It's more like they offered opinions, suppositions or impressions. Much of what they said had nothing concrete to say about the issue in question. We know Trump probably discussed delaying the aid with his staff; nothing illegal about that. We know several of the foreign service types didn't approve of how Trump was working or what his view on foreign relations were - they have a right to an opinion, but that's all. We were shocked, I tell you shocked, when Mulvaney told us heads of state engage in deals, aka quid pro quos. What we never here was anyone saying "I heard Trump tell Zelensky he wouldn't get the aid unless he announced investigations, nor did we hear ANY of the diplomats say that he/she delivered that message. We heard Zelensky say he felt no pressure and that at the time of the call he was unaware the aid had been delayed.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

"everybody"???

I don't think so.

I've only said one witness committed perjury.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

Its not that the witnesses lied. Its that trump supporters have moved the goal so far that it is out of the stadium, down the street, and in the suburbs.

They pretty much will only believe Trump admitting it himself, after kicking them personally in the balls to prove its really Trump and not some dude in a mask.
 
I don't think it's an issue of lying or committing perjury. It's more like they offered opinions, suppositions or impressions. Much of what they said had nothing concrete to say about the issue in question. We know Trump probably discussed delaying the aid with his staff; nothing illegal about that. We know several of the foreign service types didn't approve of how Trump was working or what his view on foreign relations were - they have a right to an opinion, but that's all. We were shocked, I tell you shocked, when Mulvaney told us heads of state engage in deals, aka quid pro quos. What we never here was anyone saying "I heard Trump tell Zelensky he wouldn't get the aid unless he announced investigations, nor did we hear ANY of the diplomats say that he/she delivered that message. We heard Zelensky say he felt no pressure and that at the time of the call he was unaware the aid had been delayed.

"Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, revised his original testimony in the House impeachment probe into President Donald Trump to add that he conveyed to a Ukrainian counterpart that Trump would not release nearly $400 million in foreign aid until the country agreed to launch specific investigations sought by Trump."
 
"Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, revised his original testimony in the House impeachment probe into President Donald Trump to add that he conveyed to a Ukrainian counterpart that Trump would not release nearly $400 million in foreign aid until the country agreed to launch specific investigations sought by Trump."

Yes, but who ordered him to do that?


That's the problem. Did Sondland just decide on his own? Why did he have so much confidence that he actually conveyed that message? "I assumed" is not good enough.


That's why we need to get Giuliani on the stand. He was obviously running this. Trump told Zelensky that Gulianni was the guy.

Giuliani needs to testify. And either he will sing or he will plea the 5th. And then we will know.

Unfortunately the accused controls who is allowed to testify against him.
 
"everybody"???

I don't think so.

I've only said one witness committed perjury.

It's a convoluted straw man defense. The witnesses were crap. No crimes were committed. It's all they got.
 
It's a convoluted straw man defense. The witnesses were crap. No crimes were committed. It's all they got.
you know for sure that no crimes were committed?
Let's assume that's true.
What Rs dont seem to understand is that it is not necessary to commit a crime in order to be impeachable.

It just needs to be an abuse of power.
 
They didn't need to lie. None of them had anything new to say. Not a single fact in two weeks.

You're very wrong, each witness had plenty to offer, and all under oath at the risk of their careers. Fiona Hill revealed the contempt that John Bolton had for Rudy Giuliani, reportedly calling him a “hand grenade” and calling his back channel efforts to pressure the Ukrainian government a “drug deal.” This has been spoken of in the press many times.

In her closed-door testimony, Fiona Hill claimed that Gordon Sondland was “a counterintelligence risk,” saying, “He was often meeting with people he had no information about. It’s like basically driving along with no guardrails and no GPS on an unfamiliar territory.”

The most important things to take away from her testimony was in her opening statement which is printed in the New Yorker.

“President Putin and the Russian security services operate like a super PAC,” she said. “They deploy millions of dollars to weaponize our own political opposition research and false narratives. When we are consumed by partisan rancor, we cannot combat these external forces as they seek to divide us against each other, degrade our institutions, and destroy the faith of the American people in our democracy.” “Russia’s security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election,” “We are running out of time to stop them. In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.”
The Extraordinary Impeachment Testimony of Fiona Hill | The New Yorker

Fiona Hill clearly stated the idea that Ukraine organized interference in the 2016 election was part of a disinformation campaign started by Russia in early 2017.

It doesn't matter who in the administration reportedly said that Putin told Trump this in 2017, because we have the foremost expert on all matters pertaining to Russia confirmed the fact that it was Russia that opened up this disinformation campaign in 2017 in order to blame Ukraine for meddling in our election.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

Simple, only those who voted for the guy who went bankrupt so often that no legitimate bank would lend him money know the truth. ;)
 
you know for sure that no crimes were committed?
Let's assume that's true.
What Rs dont seem to understand is that it is not necessary to commit a crime in order to be impeachable.

It just needs to be an abuse of power.

I know none were proven. Oh, I know, Dems can impeach a ham sandwich, and they did.
Just remember how much karma from Harry Reid you're reaping and then times it by a thousand.
That's what future holds for Democrats.

Have fun, kittens!
 
"Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, revised his original testimony in the House impeachment probe into President Donald Trump to add that he conveyed to a Ukrainian counterpart that Trump would not release nearly $400 million in foreign aid until the country agreed to launch specific investigations sought by Trump."
Sondland came across as a loose cannon; he hit his Peter Principle maximum two promotions ago. He changed from the dungeon hearing, almost as soon as he left the room. He open testimony was a Fluster Cluck. Generic crap like "everyone knew it" is meaningless. Wasn't he also the one Trump told "I don't want anything"?
 
I know none were proven. Oh, I know, Dems can impeach a ham sandwich, and they did.
Just remember how much karma from Harry Reid you're reaping and then times it by a thousand.
That's what future holds for Democrats.

Have fun, kittens!

Democrats are not impeaching Donald Trump just for fun. or because they hate him. or because of any one of 30 ridiculous reasons that righties are complaining about.


If we were impeaching him for no reason we would have done it a long time ago. He is being impeached because he used the office and its' resources/power/influence in order to help win the 2020 election. The technical term for this is "a big no-no". Nancy fought the idea of impeaching him for a long time, even though the Mueller report provided 11 perfectly good instances of obstruction of justice to do it with. even though he has spend $115 million on golf trips to his own properties, even though Military personel are suddenly and mysteriously going out of their way to refuel near Trump resorts. Even though the vice president is doing the same.
 
You're very wrong, each witness had plenty to offer, and all under oath at the risk of their careers. Fiona Hill revealed the contempt that John Bolton had for Rudy Giuliani, reportedly calling him a “hand grenade” and calling his back channel efforts to pressure the Ukrainian government a “drug deal.” This has been spoken of in the press many times.

In her closed-door testimony, Fiona Hill claimed that Gordon Sondland was “a counterintelligence risk,” saying, “He was often meeting with people he had no information about. It’s like basically driving along with no guardrails and no GPS on an unfamiliar territory.”

The most important things to take away from her testimony was in her opening statement which is printed in the New Yorker.

“President Putin and the Russian security services operate like a super PAC,” she said. “They deploy millions of dollars to weaponize our own political opposition research and false narratives. When we are consumed by partisan rancor, we cannot combat these external forces as they seek to divide us against each other, degrade our institutions, and destroy the faith of the American people in our democracy.” “Russia’s security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election,” “We are running out of time to stop them. In the course of this investigation, I would ask that you please not promote politically driven falsehoods that so clearly advance Russian interests.”

Fiona Hill clearly stated the idea that Ukraine organized interference in the 2016 election was part of a disinformation campaign started by Russia in early 2017.

It doesn't matter who in the administration reportedly said that Putin told Trump this in 2017, because we have the foremost expert on all matters pertaining to Russia confirmed the fact that it was Russia that opened up this disinformation campaign in 2017 in order to blame Ukraine for meddling in our election.
Hearsay, speculation, conjecture. Nothing that is admissible in court.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?
Of any of those testimonies and/or additional facts in the public record, what would you highlight as to establish a fact pattern which shows the underlying claim of Article 1 to a sceptical person such as myself? What is your own personal smoking gun? All I see is a political narrative being crafted.

"Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, revised his original testimony in the House impeachment probe into President Donald Trump to add that he conveyed to a Ukrainian counterpart that Trump would not release nearly $400 million in foreign aid until the country agreed to launch specific investigations sought by Trump."
So, this statement?
“I now recall speaking individually with Mr. Yermak(Aid), where I said that resumption of U.S. aid would not likely occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks,”

If you think that is a smoking gun. I would advise you to reread his full opening public statement framing his recollection of the events in question.

You understand "abuse of power" is saying trump is purposeful abusing his office? You understand it is his job to make executive decisions in regard to how to structure his relationship with the Ukraine? You understand those on the Ukraine file would be advocating stronger relations to that of the presidential office? That Ukraine has a long history of corruption and the us of extending restrictions and advising reforms? Trump is advised by multiple people with conflicting advice? That he has a legitment reasoning not related to influencing 2020 but investing false claims of Russian collusion for Galliani to be there? That Anyone upon hearing Hunter Biden/Burisma story, it would stick in your head as a prominent example of concern?

Given the above I hope you see what needs to be proven here is the wreckless disregard for national interest in pursuit of personal gain. You must see how the democrats are just dancing around those necessary facts and sticking to acting shocked at tangential points. Many which even bring serious questions to their narrative. They have provided a narrative, shown their narrative possible, but not shown why that more compelling than the more likely, less sinister motives which better explain the same events. You understand this would need to involve a good number of people, yes?

They've got nothing. That's why they manufactured article 2, avoiding the obvious judicial review and choose the vaguer "abuse of power" instead of something falsifiable like bribery, wherein legal requirements are even stricter. The counted their chickens before they hatched and it blew up. Keep watching...you'll see....
 
Democrats are not impeaching Donald Trump just for fun. or because they hate him. or because of any one of 30 ridiculous reasons that righties are complaining about.


If we were impeaching him for no reason we would have done it a long time ago. He is being impeached because he used the office and its' resources/power/influence in order to help win the 2020 election. The technical term for this is "a big no-no". Nancy fought the idea of impeaching him for a long time, even though the Mueller report provided 11 perfectly good instances of obstruction of justice to do it with. even though he has spend $115 million on golf trips to his own properties, even though Military personel are suddenly and mysteriously going out of their way to refuel near Trump resorts. Even though the vice president is doing the same.

Nope. Doesn't hold water. Dems were pinning all their impeachment ambitions on Mueller and that didn't come through for them.
Oh, Nancy ain't the one champing at the bit for impeachment.
Go back and listen to her statements about it.
And Nadler.
And Schiff.

Dems are desperate because of the economy and the fact that their field is weak. They want the OVAL and they'll do anything to get Trump out of the way.
Democrats are selling their souls so Trump doesn't get one more SCOTUS appointment.
 
"everybody"???

I don't think so.

I've only said one witness committed perjury.

I see.

They didn’t lie.

You just reject the facts.
 
Of any of those testimonies and/or additional facts in the public record, what would you highlight as to establish a fact pattern which shows the underlying claim of Article 1 to a sceptical person such as myself? What is your own personal smoking gun? All I see is a political narrative being crafted.


So, this statement?
“I now recall speaking individually with Mr. Yermak(Aid), where I said that resumption of U.S. aid would not likely occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks,”

If you think that is a smoking gun. I would advise you to reread his full opening public statement framing his recollection of the events in question.

You understand "abuse of power" is saying trump is purposeful abusing his office? You understand it is his job to make executive decisions in regard to how to structure his relationship with the Ukraine? You understand those on the Ukraine file would be advocating stronger relations to that of the presidential office? That Ukraine has a long history of corruption and the us of extending restrictions and advising reforms? Trump is advised by multiple people with conflicting advice? That he has a legitment reasoning not related to influencing 2020 but investing false claims of Russian collusion for Galliani to be there? That Anyone upon hearing Hunter Biden/Burisma story, it would stick in your head as a prominent example of concern?

Given the above I hope you see what needs to be proven here is the wreckless disregard for national interest in pursuit of personal gain. You must see how the democrats are just dancing around those necessary facts and sticking to acting shocked at tangential points. Many which even bring serious questions to their narrative. They have provided a narrative, shown their narrative possible, but not shown why that more compelling than the more likely, less sinister motives which better explain the same events. You understand this would need to involve a good number of people, yes?

They've got nothing. That's why they manufactured article 2, avoiding the obvious judicial review and choose the vaguer "abuse of power" instead of something falsifiable like bribery, wherein legal requirements are even stricter. The counted their chickens before they hatched and it blew up. Keep watching...you'll see....

Spot on. This is why Pelosi is dragging it out so the narrative doesn't implode.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

None of them had any factual evidence. When asked if they did they all sat silent. They only offered their opinions and inferences. The only evidence that was supplied was that Trump stated he wanted "No quid pro quo" This is why Pelosi is sitting on the articles. She is waiting to hatch more evidence for senate dems which don't want to touch this with a 10 ft pole.
 
I see.

They didn’t lie.

You just reject the facts.

Yovanovitch lied when questioned by Lee Zeldin. This isn't even in dispute.
Look, I don't think she should be charged, but let's not pretend the evidence isn't there.
She lied.
 
Yovanovitch lied about responding back to a Democrat staffer. Her emails shows she did respond. This is simply fact.
Now, she tried to be cute and act like not responding through official channels isn't responding, but in reality, it is in fact, responding, as Yovanovitch responded to a current State Department employee at their personal email address for official business.
 
I am curious because everyone who says there was no evidence against Trump is saying the sworn testimony from 12 witnesses were lies and perjury. Why exactly did Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council; Bill Taylor, the US's chief envoy in Ukraine; Gordon Sondland, the US's ambassador to the EU; Laura Cooper, a deputy secretary at the Defense Department; and Marie Yovanovitch, the US's former ambassador to Ukraine all put aside their distinguished careers to lie?

Every one of those witnesses said they could not prove there was any quid pro quo and admitted that the Ukrainians never did anything in response to Trump's phone call to suggest they thought there was. Vindmann may have fancied himself as some sort of expert but it was not his job to conduct diplomatic relations with Ukraine in place of the ambassador and President Trump. The buffoon was lying when he said he talked with the Russian president, a point which he later sheepishly admitted under cross examination was not true.
 
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