Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...[W:875,1181]

[JayDubya]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

So, after all I did not makes such a claim

Yes, you did.

You can claim that you misspoke, if you want to, but you still said what you said.

If you didn't mean to say it, feel free to correct it.

 

[prometeus]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Yes, you did.

No ,I did not. Even your post is evidence of what I said, except of course for the lie you injected.

You can claim that you misspoke, if you want to, but you still said what you said.

I did not mis-speak and I did say what I did and you posted a lie.

If you didn't mean to say it, feel free to correct it.

I can not correct the lie you post.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

No, I did not.

Yes, you did. Words mean things, and you said what you said. It happened.

Sorry, but you're just factually at odds with reality right now.

 

[prometeus]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Yes, you did. Words mean things, and you said what you said.

Yes, I said what I said and it is there for anyone to read. You interjected a lie into it in a dishonest attempt to misrepresent what I said.

Sorry, but you're just factually at odds with reality right now.

Not at all, I still have the capacity to recognize your lie whereas you do not.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Yes, I said what I said and it is there for anyone to read.

Well if you're not going to correct it, and you're not going to explain how the frell you could possibly think you didn't claim that unborn mammals aren't really organisms because they're not self-reliant - when you objectively did - then we're at an impasse that isn't going to end until you do get a grasp on reality here.

 

[Helix]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Moderator's Warning:

Handing out thread bans. Get yours by insulting each other instead of discussing the OP. There are now fewer posters in the thread and TWO in thread warnings.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Trees or not people and we have a right to life. Trees do not.

Please tell me where it's written that the unborn have right to life? And again, as a criteria for life or death, 'innocence' is meaningless in the context you are using it. The analogy to other life forms is to assist you in seeing that the way you apply it to the unborn is the same way it applies to those other life forms....useless.

No they don't. To the best of my knowledge no infant has ever committed a crime that is punishable by death in America.

I never said that, I said that the minute they are born they are capable of acting and that can be based on innocence (good), evil (bad) and everything in between. You responded with something ridiculous to avoid addressing this directly. So that (empty, not by personal volition) innocence you accord the unborn is lost at birth anyway.

The is not true, but even if it was, it doesn't change anything. You are just babbling on with no direction.

What is untrue about this? Is it too complex for you? Try reading it again but I have been very articulate and constructive in my posts, whether you agree with them or not. Do not resort to insults when you cannot address something. If you dont understand it, ask:

Lursa: How can you have it both ways? It is empty, vegetative innocence in the womb....yet you value that. As soon as it is born, it is able to ACT...and do so in it's own interests, for good and bad. That is the ability to be good or bad and everything in between. That(original innocence) emptiness is now gone.

I find it very disturbing that you think unborn humans have no value.

They do not. Not to you (except in your imagination since you have no knowlege of them) and not to me. They only have value...whatever it is...to the mother and close family and anyone else she chooses to include in revealing her pregnancy to. The mother is already contributing to society, her value is quantifiable....how do you quantify something you are not even aware of, something you are imagining? And why would you place THAT above the will and the needs of the mother?

Reductio ad absurdum...You have taken what I have said and applied absurd definitions that are not valid for the purposes of making your case. A case, I might ad, that hinged on the definition of one word in one post. Further, you now imply that children, for want of food, are now guilty of a crime that is punishable by death. Combine that with your assertion that prebirth humans have no value and we start to paint a very disturbing picture. Are you sure this is the line of reasoning you meant to take?

What's ridiculous? You are the one applying meaningless human attributes to the unborn which cannot actually fulfill the attribute until viability. Otherwise that attribute is no different than when held by other organisms....not under their control. A vacuum. What is the value in that, can you explain?

Such irrational-seeming thoughts and the implications for women form a very disturbing picture for me....so I hope you can clarify.

 

[Excon]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Read John 4:26 and learn.

:lamo
Your understanding is mistakenly flawed.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Odd that you would say that. There are lots of people, very well educated people that very sincerely believe abortion to be murder; mass murder, in fact. The problem for the logic that contradicts this is that it requires introducing the hypothesis that not all humans are human.

Not at all. It's a legal matter and a legal designation. It's not about being human, it's about being a person, as in the US, only persons are accorded rights. SCOTUS reaffirmed this in Roe vs Wade. It's also here in the US Legal Code, and it does include the adjectival 'human being' (rather than the biological 'human') but even so, they must be born to be accorded rights.

U.S. Code § 8 - “Person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual” as including born-alive infant

(a) In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.

(b) As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being “born alive” as defined in this section.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

I knew all that. But that does not change anything. You seem to think that court decisions, power that be or majorities influence ethical value. By that standard the mass murders in history were ethically fine. The implications of the ethics you seem to postulate would probably scare you.

Are you saying that the SCOTUS decision in Roe vs Wade was/is unethical? How so? I hope you will consider the 'real life' affects on women's rights if abortion was made illegal....the implications that are clear if the govt must take responsibility for making sure pregnant women stay pregnant, there will be gross infringements on their rights. Including their right to life, since every year in the US, 86,000 women die, nearly die, or have longterm health damage (like kidney failure, aneurysms, strokes) from pregnancy and childbirth.

And of course these are not the ones resolved by therapeutic abortions (those done to save a woman's life). If that were the case, none or only some of those 86,000 would have occurred.

No, not all death and damage can be predicted or prevented. So the govt would be forcing women to take those significant risks against their will.

Thoughts?

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

JoG nailed it. If you take the risk you assume the consequences. The rest is just you trying to impose beliefs on me so you can dismiss my argument without merit.

Who is imposing anything on you?

Yes, people who have sex may have to face consequences. I dont think anyone disagrees with that.

And if a woman gets pregnant, she has NO way to escape those consequences. This is all she has:

--give birth
--have a miscarriage
--have an abortion
--die during childbirth or pregnancy.

And she can die or face permanent harm from the first 3 too. So what is she 'avoiding?' What, are some of those not enough 'punishment' for her? Yeah, ya know, some women want to give birth! All consequences are not negative. It just seems like there are people that 'want' them to be.

So I see nowhere where ANY belief is being imposed on you.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Who is imposing anything on you?

Yes, people who have sex may have to face consequences. I dont think anyone disagrees with that.

And if a woman gets pregnant, she has NO way to escape those consequences. This is all she has:

--give birth
--have a miscarriage
--have an abortion
--die during childbirth or pregnancy.

And she can die or face permanent harm from the first 3 too. So what is she 'avoiding?' What, are some of those not enough 'punishment' for her? Yeah, ya know, some women want to give birth! All consequences are not negative. It just seems like there are people that 'want' them to be.

So I see nowhere where ANY belief is being imposed on you.

again sometimes facts dont matter, they will just be ignored.
THere is ZERO beliefs imposed on others by choice

 

[joG]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Are you saying that the SCOTUS decision in Roe vs Wade was/is unethical? How so? I hope you will consider the 'real life' affects on women's rights if abortion was made illegal....the implications that are clear if the govt must take responsibility for making sure pregnant women stay pregnant, there will be gross infringements on their rights. Including their right to life, since every year in the US, 86,000 women die, nearly die, or have longterm health damage (like kidney failure, aneurysms, strokes) from pregnancy and childbirth.

And of course these are not the ones resolved by therapeutic abortions (those done to save a woman's life). If that were the case, none or only some of those 86,000 would have occurred.

No, not all death and damage can be predicted or prevented. So the govt would be forcing women to take those significant risks against their will.

Thoughts?

I would not presume to be the authority on ethics to say, but by traditional ethics and in the opinion of well trained minds specialized in ethics abortion is rather unethical. Also we have a human rights based legal system that derives legitimacy from those rights. Abortion is the killing of a human being.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Ok, I ran out of time to finish my thought. But if you do the math, nearly every woman will have contraception fail at some point in her life.

.

Let's see THAT statistic.

I am now 54....never been pregnant. Was sexually active (still am :mrgreen: but no longer fertile...score!!!!) my entire adult life including a 13 year live-in relationship where we definitely had more sex than the average marriage (from what I read.)

I couldnt take the Pill because of my blood pressure. I had to use other methods and I never ever had unprotected sex in my life. It was a PIA sometimes certainly but I still never got pregnant. I know a couple of other women the same, except they were able to take the Pill.

So just in my experience (myself and others)....you are wrong so I'd like to see something more to back up that statement.

It's also kinda sad that you think women should have to forego enjoying sex just because you dont believe they should take the risks of birth control and possibly getting pregnant. Sorry Charlie, we are not giving up the good things in life just because you choose to accord the unborn with rights.

I think this is the more important 'takeaway' from your post about the efficacy of bc. It's not remotely realistic but IMO punitive and judgemental.

 

[Bicycle]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Not only that, but the way it exists in this country...completely un regulated, reporting voluntary where it exists at all, no oversight...it's a disgraceful example of a society that thinks that not only are the babies of poor and minority women worthless...but the women themselves are. The women aren't important enough to rate doctors in good standing, or any sort of enforced standards of operations....they are lied to about the *safety* of abortion, and taught from the cradle that if they have children except when they've PLANNED for them, then those children are a burden, subhuman, and should be killed.

It's disgusting. And they claim they are working on BEHALF of women. All they have done is enable the butchers and the sex trade to abuse these women even more effectively than they already did.

 

[Bicycle]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Let's see THAT statistic.

I am now 54....never been pregnant. Was sexually active (still am :mrgreen: but no longer fertile...score!!!!) my entire adult life including a 13 year live-in relationship where we definitely had more sex than the average marriage (from what I read.)

I couldnt take the Pill because of my blood pressure. I had to use other methods and I never ever had unprotected sex in my life. It was a PIA sometimes certainly but I still never got pregnant. I know a couple of other women the same, except they were able to take the Pill.

So just in my experience (myself and others)....you are wrong so I'd like to see something more to back up that statement.

It's also kinda sad that you think women should have to forego enjoying sex just because you dont believe they should take the risks of birth control and possibly getting pregnant. Sorry Charlie, we are not giving up the good things in life just because you choose to accord the unborn with rights.

I think this is the more important 'takeaway' from your post about the efficacy of bc. It's not remotely realistic but IMO punitive and judgemental.

It's kind of sad that you think women should risk their health and their lives for the sake of getting off with men who they don't want to have children with.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

1.)I would not presume to be the authority on ethics to say, but by traditional ethics and in the opinion of well trained minds specialized in ethics abortion is rather unethical.
2.)Also we have a human rights based legal system that derives legitimacy from those rights.
3.) Abortion is the killing of a human being.

1.) just an opinion and a meaningless one
2.) actually choice with limits is closer to respecting human rights than anythign else LMAO Thier are TWO lives in the equation and ignoring one or leaning towards one negates any human rights argument

it is impossible to use human rights as a based for anybody that is for/mostly for bannings or unlimited abortion. This fact will simply not change.

Its impossible to have equal rights on this matter but if one cares about them or human rights the only thing close is something in the middle.

Now people are free to feel how they want but they cant be for/mostly for, bannings or unlimited abortion and use human rights, its factually impossible for them to apply unless one life is ignored.

3.) factually false the way you stated it.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

I would not presume to be the authority on ethics to say, but by traditional ethics and in the opinion of well trained minds specialized in ethics abortion is rather unethical. Also we have a human rights based legal system that derives legitimacy from those rights. Abortion is the killing of a human being.

Well let's see some sources of well trained minds that declare abortion unethical (I'm sure there are some)....and under which circumstances and if they would choose to demand others adhere to their ethical belief?

Also, in a recent discussion here, we have discovered that NO legitimate human rights organization objects to abortion. We got an entire laundry list of HR issues for a major international human rights org. (linked to from someone else making the claim it was an HR issue, LOL) and it was not listed. What they recognize are women's reproductive rights in which abortion is included.

 

[Lursa]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

It's kind of sad that you think women should risk their health and their lives for the sake of getting off with men who they don't want to have children with.

I lived with someone for 13 yrs and didnt want kids. The sex was very good.

I'm sorry for you that you dont see any value in that. Your loss I'm sure.

By the way, I also jump out of airplanes, scuba dive, and ride horses really fast. And drive a car.

All those things are more dangerous than sex! LMAO

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Not only that, but the way it exists in this country...completely un regulated, reporting voluntary where it exists at all, no oversight...it's a disgraceful example of a society that thinks that not only are the babies of poor and minority women worthless...but the women themselves are. The women aren't important enough to rate doctors in good standing, or any sort of enforced standards of operations....they are lied to about the *safety* of abortion, and taught from the cradle that if they have children except when they've PLANNED for them, then those children are a burden, subhuman, and should be killed.

It's disgusting. And they claim they are working on BEHALF of women. All they have done is enable the butchers and the sex trade to abuse these women even more effectively than they already did.

what country are you speaking of? not the US lol
not only are there regs here but many middle class have abortions
and abortions have nothing to do with thinking anything is worthless
sorry those starwmen dont cut it

lol where does this info come from

 

[Bicycle]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

Most people who are *for* abortion are *for* abortion under certain circumstances. That's another part of the equation that the progressive eugenecists don't like publicized. It's a tiny fraction of people who want abortion for any reason at all. Yet they pretend that they represent the majority (by pretending that those who want abortion under certain circumstances want abortion for any reason), and they lie about the fact that we do need laws making abortion on demand for any (or no) reason legal, in order to facilitate therapeutic abortions for the sake of the health of the mother.

It's just a lie. We don't need Planned Parenthood to protect the health of women. They JEOPARDIZE the health of women. They KILL women. They PROTECT criminals who abuse women.

And there is zero oversight. And that's the way progressives like it.

 

[Bicycle]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

what country are you speaking of? not the US lol
not only are there regs here but many middle class have abortions
and abortions have nothing to do with thinking anything is worthless
sorry those starwmen dont cut it

lol where does this info come from

It comes from the CDC, Planned Parenthood and Guttmacher's.

 

[Bicycle]

So..how did those regulations serve the women who were butchered and killed at Gosnell's?

 

[joG]

Re: Why Abortion is WRONG! It is Just THIS Simple...

1.) just an opinion and a meaningless one
2.) actually choice with limits is closer to respecting human rights than anythign else LMAO Thier are TWO lives in the equation and ignoring one or leaning towards one negates any human rights argument

it is impossible to use human rights as a based for anybody that is for/mostly for bannings or unlimited abortion. This fact will simply not change.

Its impossible to have equal rights on this matter but if one cares about them or human rights the only thing close is something in the middle.

Now people are free to feel how they want but they cant be for/mostly for, bannings or unlimited abortion and use human rights, its factually impossible for them to apply unless one life is ignored.

3.) factually false the way you stated it.

Your point 1) sums up, what can be said of your three points. But I will say that it is real chutzpah to say that you know better than specialists in a rather complicated matter without more than that.

 

[Lursa]

So..how did those regulations serve the women who were butchered and killed at Gosnell's?

How do laws and regulations serve the people killed in car accidents? Those killed in the commission of crimes?

Gosnell is a criminal...to condemn all abortions because of such criminal activity would be the same as condemning all parenthood because some parents beat their kids to death.