Who's More Charitable?

[mak2]

Ouch, that was a devestating retort. I think i will go lick my wounds and try to recover.

Every single liberal site I have ever been on has an eat-the-rich thread going every couple of months. :roll:

Wait, did I say months? I meant minutes.

 

[jmotivator]

Ouch, that was a devestating retort. I think i will go lick my wounds and try to recover.

It's always fun to see someone mock their own words thrown back at them.

 

[Karl]

Actually, it does .... sometimes, it's on page 2, but most often on page 1 -

Financial Performance Metrics

Program Expenses 55.1%
Administrative Expenses 4.1%
Fundraising Expenses 40.7%
Fundraising Efficiency $0.41
Primary Revenue Growth 4.6%
Program Expenses Growth 9.7%
Working Capital Ratio (years) 0.80

That's a sample ... not even sure which charity i picked, but you get the point.

You add those categories together, and what's left is what goes to the needy.

No, you don't get the point. All those numbers don't necessarily have anything to do with the needy.... they have to do with the "program", whatever it may be (for example, the "program" could be distributing bibles or condoms). Again, you're describing all charity as focused towards the "needy" but clearly that is wrong (some of it is going for secular purposes, or in the case of the LDS some of it is going towards building shopping malls).

 

[mak2]

nah, actually it was just kinda silly. How many lib sites do you hang out on?

It's always fun to see someone mock their own words thrown back at them.

 

[jmotivator]

nah, actually it was just kinda silly. How many lib sites do you hang out on?

My number is exactly the same as the number of conservative sites you hang out on. Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

 

[stockbrokers]

The people fighting with problems without income sources are suitable for this cause.

 

[Hard Truth]

That seems to be a common misconception among libs. Do you have any evidence to back that up? You do realize church funds are totally public and regularly disclosed to the congregation, right? What you are saying just isn't true with all churches. I doubt it's even true with most.

That does not seem to be true. In fact, per the IRS, religions have fewer requirements for transparency than other non-profit groups.

"Annual Exempt Organization Return: Who Must File

Every organization exempt from federal income tax under Internal Revenue Code section 501(a) must file an annual information return except:

A church, an interchurch organization of local units of a church, a convention or association of churches,
An integrated auxiliary of a church,
A church-affiliated organization that is exclusively engaged in managing funds or maintaining retirement programs,
A school below college level affiliated with a church or operated by a religious order,
Church-affiliated mission societies if more than half of their activities are conducted in, or are directed at persons in, foreign countries,
An exclusively religious activity of any religious order,


Tax Inquiries and Examinations of Churches

Congress has imposed special limitations, found in section 7611 of the Internal Revenue Code, on how and when the IRS may conduct civil tax inquiries and examinations of churches. The IRS may begin a church tax inquiry only if an appropriate high-level Treasury official reasonably believes, on the basis of facts and circumstances recorded in writing, that an organization claiming to be a church or convention or association of churches may not qualify for exemption, may be carrying on an unrelated trade or business (within the meaning of IRC § 513), may otherwise be engaged in taxable activities or may have entered into an IRC § 4958 excess benefit transaction with a disqualified person."

Tax Information for Churches and Religious Organizations

 

[countryboy]

That does not seem to be true. In fact, per the IRS, religions have fewer requirements for transparency than other non-profit groups.

"Annual Exempt Organization Return: Who Must File

Every organization exempt from federal income tax under Internal Revenue Code section 501(a) must file an annual information return except:

A church, an interchurch organization of local units of a church, a convention or association of churches,
An integrated auxiliary of a church,
A church-affiliated organization that is exclusively engaged in managing funds or maintaining retirement programs,
A school below college level affiliated with a church or operated by a religious order,
Church-affiliated mission societies if more than half of their activities are conducted in, or are directed at persons in, foreign countries,
An exclusively religious activity of any religious order,


Tax Inquiries and Examinations of Churches

Congress has imposed special limitations, found in section 7611 of the Internal Revenue Code, on how and when the IRS may conduct civil tax inquiries and examinations of churches. The IRS may begin a church tax inquiry only if an appropriate high-level Treasury official reasonably believes, on the basis of facts and circumstances recorded in writing, that an organization claiming to be a church or convention or association of churches may not qualify for exemption, may be carrying on an unrelated trade or business (within the meaning of IRC § 513), may otherwise be engaged in taxable activities or may have entered into an IRC § 4958 excess benefit transaction with a disqualified person."

Tax Information for Churches and Religious Organizations

Fair enough, thanks for the info. I don't have time at the moment to peruse it in any detail, but will later.

Every protestant church I have ever attended has released detailed financial information to the congregation. I guess I always assumed it was a legal requirement. You don't suppose it would be legal for them to release fraudulent info to their congregants, do you?

 

[Hard Truth]

Fair enough, thanks for the info. I don't have time at the moment to peruse it in any detail, but will later.

Every protestant church I have ever attended has released detailed financial information to the congregation. I guess I always assumed it was a legal requirement. You don't suppose it would be legal for them to release fraudulent info to their congregants, do you?

It probably would not be legal to release fraudulent info, but it would be hard, perhaps impossible, to detect with the minimal amount of transparency legally required of religious groups.

 

[iguanaman]

Mormons are REQUIRED to donate 10% of their income to the Mormon church as "dues" to be a member in good standing.. It's counted as "charity"(which it is not) and skews the numbers in that survey. It's nothing but a scam to mask the fact that conservatives are generally skinflints. Bill Gates pledged all the Billions of his money to charitable causes. How many Right wing billionaires have done that? They create dynasties that are un-American instead. Our founders abhorred dynasties above all else.

 

[countryboy]

It probably would not be legal to release fraudulent info, but it would be hard, perhaps impossible, to detect with the minimal amount of transparency legally required of religious groups.

Which is why it is so important for the faithful to find healthy, well balanced churches they feel they can trust. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the number of churches who do very good works with regards to the needy among us, and around the world. I do understand your skepticism though. There are plenty of charlatans to go around.

 

[countryboy]

Mormons are REQUIRED to donate 10% of their income to the Mormon church as a fee to be a member.. It's counted as "charity"(which it is not) and skews the numbers in that survey. It's nothing but a scam to mask the fact that conservatives are generally skinflints. Bill Gates pledged all the Billions of his money to charitable causes. How many Right wing billionaires have done that?

Do you honestly think your attitude will convince anyone?

 

[iguanaman]

Do you honestly think your attitude will convince anyone?

Do honestly think that survey will? Everyone knows how greedy and cheap right wingers are. Willard's charitable donations were mediocre if you take away his Mormon "dues".

 

[countryboy]

Do honestly think that survey will? Everyone knows how greedy and cheap right wingers are. Willard's charitable donations were mediocre if you take away his Mormon "dues".

No, actually everyone does not know this. It is a figment of your acerbic imagination.

 

[Hard Truth]

Which is why it is so important for the faithful to find healthy, well balanced churches they feel they can trust. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the number of churches who do very good works with regards to the needy among us, and around the world. I do understand your skepticism though. There are plenty of charlatans to go around.

I am aware that many religious groups do admirable charity work. Members of every type of organization that handles money should require that the workers and leaders provide verifiable financial information. Failing to keep an eye on the money creates more temptation for the workers and leaders than many people can handle.

 

[Paschendale]

This would all make sense if we hadn't watched the destruction caused by 40 years of dumbass liberal programs sold as a step towards an "equitable society". It's like the captain of the Titanic giving a lecture on North Atlantic navigation to his bridge crew while he's waste deep in the North Atlantic. The failure of the liberal agenda is in major cities all around the country.

I've lived in and worked in the politics of several of those major cities. The liberal programs and liberal agenda that you speak of is one of the main things that protects people from the greed of powerful private interests. Those programs help the poorest among us who fall through the cracks, and whose problems don't make the more affluent feel comfortable to alleviate with their charity. Those programs bring food to hungry people, clothes to shivering children, homes to the homeless, and education to the next generation. And for all the whining that those who don't want to help the poor do, aid programs have not and will not ever make anyone lazy and complacent who wasn't already like that.

You only see a failure because you want to see one. Because it fits your narrative where you are superior to others who are struggling. Liberal politics have not been sold as a step towards a more equitable society. They have made a more equitable society. And they will continue to do so no matter how much you and yours kick and scream and throw tantrums as you lose your place of privilege. You aren't better than other people, and the more the roadblocks that hold them back slip away, the more they prove that.

 

[iliveonramen]

Fair enough, thanks for the info. I don't have time at the moment to peruse it in any detail, but will later.

Every protestant church I have ever attended has released detailed financial information to the congregation. I guess I always assumed it was a legal requirement. You don't suppose it would be legal for them to release fraudulent info to their congregants, do you?

You can hide a lot of things in financial information. Of course you could be a part of a legit church but from experience I have very little faith in the protestant church's dotting the bible belt.

 

[countryboy]

You can hide a lot of things in financial information. Of course you could be a part of a legit church but from experience I have very little faith in the protestant church's dotting the bible belt.

Why? 5 char

 

[iliveonramen]

Why? 5 char

I feel as if congregations are fleeced. There's way to many bible belt preachers that live life in a lot more comfort than their congregation. One specific is my aunt and uncle attended this church. It was one of those charismatic church's where the preacher yells about damnation and is pretty entertaining. One evening he gets all the men in a room from the church and pretty much does a hard sell to get their money. He pulls out all the stops, it was a sells pitch not a sermon. My aunt and uncle do pretty well for themselves but his congregation has a lot of poor people barely getting by. This preacher had a lot of amenities to help him "spread the word" such as a helicopter. Wasn't long after that he ditched the church for a new one...Im guessing there were better pickings at his new place.

There's a lot of good people that are faithful but if you have the personality of a con-artist, there's no freaking easier population to fleece than people that equate their givings to their salvation. It's a recipe for disaster

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Do honestly think that survey will? Everyone knows how greedy and cheap right wingers are. Willard's charitable donations were mediocre if you take away his Mormon "dues".

Even if that were true (which it very obviously is not) it would still certainly be more honorable to be stingy with one's own money, than to be—as you wrong-wingers are—“generous” with other people's money.

In any event, it is never “greedy” to want to keep what is rightfully yours. Greed, by definition, involves wanting to take what is not rightfully yours. I always find it amusing that you wrong-wingers—whose entire economic ideology is entirely greed-based—like to accuse those of us on the right of being “greedy”.

 

[countryboy]

I feel as if congregations are fleeced. There's way to many bible belt preachers that live life in a lot more comfort than their congregation. One specific is my aunt and uncle attended this church. It was one of those charismatic church's where the preacher yells about damnation and is pretty entertaining. One evening he gets all the men in a room from the church and pretty much does a hard sell to get their money. He pulls out all the stops, it was a sells pitch not a sermon. My aunt and uncle do pretty well for themselves but his congregation has a lot of poor people barely getting by. This preacher had a lot of amenities to help him "spread the word" such as a helicopter. Wasn't long after that he ditched the church for a new one...Im guessing there were better pickings at his new place.

There's a lot of good people that are faithful but if you have the personality of a con-artist, there's no freaking easier population to fleece than people that equate their givings to their salvation. It's a recipe for disaster

I see your point, and certainly don't condone church leaders who live in the lap of luxury. But I think its a bit unfair to make the statement that "most" churches fleece their congregations.

I think full time pastors of large successful churches should be compensated well, after all they devote a great deal of time and energy to their task.

 

[iliveonramen]

I see your point, and certainly don't condone church leaders who live in the lap of luxury. But I think its a bit unfair to make the statement that "most" churches fleece their congregations.

I think full time pastors of large successful churches should be compensated well, after all they devote a great deal of time and energy to their task.

True, using "most" is unfair. I also don't believe pastors should be living in poverty, it's a full time job and they should be compensated. These folks are also raising a family and have bills to pay.

 

[jmotivator]

I've lived in and worked in the politics of several of those major cities. The liberal programs and liberal agenda that you speak of is one of the main things that protects people from the greed of powerful private interests. Those programs help the poorest among us who fall through the cracks, and whose problems don't make the more affluent feel comfortable to alleviate with their charity. Those programs bring food to hungry people, clothes to shivering children, homes to the homeless, and education to the next generation. And for all the whining that those who don't want to help the poor do, aid programs have not and will not ever make anyone lazy and complacent who wasn't already like that.

You only see a failure because you want to see one. Because it fits your narrative where you are superior to others who are struggling. Liberal politics have not been sold as a step towards a more equitable society. They have made a more equitable society. And they will continue to do so no matter how much you and yours kick and scream and throw tantrums as you lose your place of privilege. You aren't better than other people, and the more the roadblocks that hold them back slip away, the more they prove that.

False. Those programs don't protect anything but votes. They are a blight. I have worked in these programs too. I was a social worker for 8 years.

 

[Paschendale]

False. Those programs don't protect anything but votes. They are a blight. I have worked in these programs too. I was a social worker for 8 years.

As always, the plural of anecdote is not data. Despite your protests and your backwards philosophy, the data is clear. Social programs work. Collective effort works. Privatization and selfishness do not.

 

[jmotivator]

As always, the plural of anecdote is not data. Despite your protests and your backwards philosophy, the data is clear. Social programs work. Collective effort works. Privatization and selfishness do not.

This is hilarious! First you qualify your statement about these programs with your credentials, then, when I give my credentials, you pull the "anecdotes aren't evidence" line out? Try not to be so bleeding obvious with your double standards in the future! :lamo