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Who the patriot is when your country is doing wrong

Craig234

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This is a harder topic than it should be. When your country is in the right, doing good, it's easy for patriotism to mean supporting the country, and for it to be negative disloyalty to oppose the country and its actions.

So for example, when the US was fighting fascism in World War II, it was patriotism to support the country and the war, and negative disloyalty to oppose it. Though some, including powerful people, did.

But it's another thing when the country does wrong. Some try to claim a simplistic definition of patriotism, blind support for the country; it's clear from one of their popular slogans, "My country, right or wrong".

But this is wrong. The patriotic thing when your country is doing wrong is to criticize it and try to get your country to do right. But the first group wrongly attacks that second group as disloyal for supporting the country 'right or wrong'.

Without that, there is no right and wrong, only groups fighting for power, with strength the only factor.

How much wrong could have been prevented if more Germans had opposed the Nazis, and WWII had been prevented? Had more Americans opposed the wrong war on Vietnam, and that war been prevented? Had more southerners opposed slavery, and the civil war been prevented?

Countries do wrong, and it needs to be understood what patriots should do when they do. That blind patriotism is the real treason. That the Germans who 'patriotically' supported a Nazi government helped traitorously devastate not only much of the world but their own country. That dissent is patriotic, when motivated to oppose wrong, and demands for blind loyalty are disloyal.

Our country thought we'd learned this, when Bush and Iraq came along, and we found we had not and the country was divided, with the same demands for blind loyalty. The was was found to be wrong in numerous ways, and there never was any accountablity. Oopsie, change the subject, forget it happened.

Dissent isn't always right. There can be good faith disagreements. But the demand for blind loyalty is not patriotism. The attacking and attempts to stifle reasonable people opposing what they think is wrong, is what's wrong. We need to recognize it's hard enough challenging wrongdoing by your country, and recognize its importance, suppressing those who try to suppress wrongly.

Too many people can't even imagine their country doing wrong. How many Russians feel righteous about their war on Ukraine?

Is it real patriotism for Russians to blindly support the war, as it causes disaster for Ukraine, blackens their standing globally, and ruins their economy and sees enormous loss of lives from their own side as well? Is it real patriotism for Americans to support when the US does wrong, preventing democracy and so on?
 

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And finding people to agree on what's "good" vs what's "bad" would be problematic. The OP wasn't very clear on the meaning of those two subjective terms.
When it’s undefined, it’s easy to give lip service to valuing dissent. Rarely, though, do you see someone that’s actually consistent in their defense (or condemnation) of protest/protesters.
 

Grand Mal

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This is a harder topic than it should be. When your country is in the right, doing good, it's easy for patriotism to mean supporting the country, and for it to be negative disloyalty to oppose the country and its actions.

So for example, when the US was fighting fascism in World War II, it was patriotism to support the country and the war, and negative disloyalty to oppose it. Though some, including powerful people, did.

But it's another thing when the country does wrong. Some try to claim a simplistic definition of patriotism, blind support for the country; it's clear from one of their popular slogans, "My country, right or wrong".

But this is wrong. The patriotic thing when your country is doing wrong is to criticize it and try to get your country to do right. But the first group wrongly attacks that second group as disloyal for supporting the country 'right or wrong'.

Without that, there is no right and wrong, only groups fighting for power, with strength the only factor.

How much wrong could have been prevented if more Germans had opposed the Nazis, and WWII had been prevented? Had more Americans opposed the wrong war on Vietnam, and that war been prevented? Had more southerners opposed slavery, and the civil war been prevented?

Countries do wrong, and it needs to be understood what patriots should do when they do. That blind patriotism is the real treason. That the Germans who 'patriotically' supported a Nazi government helped traitorously devastate not only much of the world but their own country. That dissent is patriotic, when motivated to oppose wrong, and demands for blind loyalty are disloyal.

Our country thought we'd learned this, when Bush and Iraq came along, and we found we had not and the country was divided, with the same demands for blind loyalty. The was was found to be wrong in numerous ways, and there never was any accountablity. Oopsie, change the subject, forget it happened.

Dissent isn't always right. There can be good faith disagreements. But the demand for blind loyalty is not patriotism. The attacking and attempts to stifle reasonable people opposing what they think is wrong, is what's wrong. We need to recognize it's hard enough challenging wrongdoing by your country, and recognize its importance, suppressing those who try to suppress wrongly.

Too many people can't even imagine their country doing wrong. How many Russians feel righteous about their war on Ukraine?

Is it real patriotism for Russians to blindly support the war, as it causes disaster for Ukraine, blackens their standing globally, and ruins their economy and sees enormous loss of lives from their own side as well? Is it real patriotism for Americans to support when the US does wrong, preventing democracy and so on?
Patriotism is as wrong as all other isms.
 

Craig234

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Let’s be real, the only dissent anyone is ok with is that which they agree with.
That's true only for some. And for them, as I said, there is no right or wrong, but only 'might makes right'.
 

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The funny thing is that Craig saw X's comment.
 

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I think, from now on, “hateriotism” needs to be word for those that despise their own country.
 

Michael Cole

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When it’s undefined, it’s easy to give lip service to valuing dissent. Rarely, though, do you see someone that’s actually consistent in their defense (or condemnation) of protest/protesters.
The OP reads like mumbo-jumbo to me. "Good country" is vague, subjective and assigns human qualities to...what? A sovereign state? I have no clue what he means by a "good country."

The dissent thing is out of place. It's a wandering OP.

The opening line I agree with (and understand.)

This is a harder topic than it should be.

I don't know what he's looking for. Affirmation maybe?
 

multivita-man

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Let’s be real, the only dissent anyone is ok with is that which they agree with.

Not really. Although I consider myself progressive and find Noam Chomsky interesting, I often find his opinions of US foreign policy to be naive and impractical. But I've never thought he was unpatriotic; I've always felt he was speaking from his moral compass and had the greater good in mind.
 

Michael Cole

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Patriotism is as wrong as all other isms.
Depends how it's defined. Jingoism is blind patriotism. True patriotism is solemn and serious.

Spending money over holiday weekends is modern Americana. Stopping at the veterans cemetery on the way home on Memorial Day - to honor (and visit) fallen and passed Americans - is true patriotism. It comes from the heart.

Jingoism comes from hatred, fear and ignorance. I don't consider it patriotic at all, and here (I think) I agree with the OP. Not sure.
 

Grand Mal

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That's only true for some definitions of patriotism.
Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Patriotism, the way I understand it, is an automatic response in favour of ones country. Isn't that what an ism is, a way of thinking?
 

Michael Cole

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I think, from now on, “hateriotism” needs to be word for those that despise their own country.
Nobody hates the country. People hate other people who live in the country, and sometimes the reasoning given is "because they hate this country."

Both sides take these positions, precisely because both sides are composed of people. No one is perfect, much less any grouping of people.

That said, the right has certainly been louder (and most likely greater in number) with the "they hate the country" rhetoric, but as you can see, the left is not immune to such cynical views.
 

Grand Mal

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Depends how it's defined. Jingoism is blind patriotism. True patriotism is solemn and serious.

Spending money over holiday weekends is modern Americana. Stopping at the veterans cemetery on the way home on Memorial Day - to honor (and visit) fallen and passed Americans - is true patriotism. It comes from the heart.

Jingoism comes from hatred, fear and ignorance. I don't consider it patriotic at all, and here (I think) I agree with the OP. Not sure.
Best I can do is post 17.
 

anatta

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This is a harder topic than it should be. When your country is in the right, doing good, it's easy for patriotism to mean supporting the country, and for it to be negative disloyalty to oppose the country and its actions.

So for example, when the US was fighting fascism in World War II, it was patriotism to support the country and the war, and negative disloyalty to oppose it. Though some, including powerful people, did.

But it's another thing when the country does wrong. Some try to claim a simplistic definition of patriotism, blind support for the country; it's clear from one of their popular slogans, "My country, right or wrong".

But this is wrong. The patriotic thing when your country is doing wrong is to criticize it and try to get your country to do right. But the first group wrongly attacks that second group as disloyal for supporting the country 'right or wrong'.

Without that, there is no right and wrong, only groups fighting for power, with strength the only factor.

How much wrong could have been prevented if more Germans had opposed the Nazis, and WWII had been prevented? Had more Americans opposed the wrong war on Vietnam, and that war been prevented? Had more southerners opposed slavery, and the civil war been prevented?

Countries do wrong, and it needs to be understood what patriots should do when they do. That blind patriotism is the real treason. That the Germans who 'patriotically' supported a Nazi government helped traitorously devastate not only much of the world but their own country. That dissent is patriotic, when motivated to oppose wrong, and demands for blind loyalty are disloyal.

Our country thought we'd learned this, when Bush and Iraq came along, and we found we had not and the country was divided, with the same demands for blind loyalty. The was was found to be wrong in numerous ways, and there never was any accountablity. Oopsie, change the subject, forget it happened.

Dissent isn't always right. There can be good faith disagreements. But the demand for blind loyalty is not patriotism. The attacking and attempts to stifle reasonable people opposing what they think is wrong, is what's wrong. We need to recognize it's hard enough challenging wrongdoing by your country, and recognize its importance, suppressing those who try to suppress wrongly.

Too many people can't even imagine their country doing wrong. How many Russians feel righteous about their war on Ukraine?

Is it real patriotism for Russians to blindly support the war, as it causes disaster for Ukraine, blackens their standing globally, and ruins their economy and sees enormous loss of lives from their own side as well? Is it real patriotism for Americans to support when the US does wrong, preventing democracy and so on?
to thine own self be true, but no need to trash your country if it's wrong either,
I learned that from Vietnam, i was a radical kid -wound up despising "the establishment". Then i got older and understood
countries make mistakes -you dont have to accept it (like Iraq/Libya etc) but one learns perspective.

CRT is like that -despise the country because "it was founded on racism" ( it wasn't) and then damn the country
for so called systemic racism ( not true either)

Hopefully we learn the evils of slavery, but also all the steps we've taken to correct it (im sure i dont need to list them all)
and you get the true perspective. (hopefully I dont need to list those either)
 

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Nobody hates the country. People hate other people who live in the country, and sometimes the reasoning given is "because they hate this country."

Both sides take these positions, precisely because both sides are composed of people. No one is perfect, much less any grouping of people.

That said, the right has certainly been louder (and most likely greater in number) with the "they hate the country" rhetoric, but as you can see, the left is not immune to such cynical views.
I know, the “side” we disagree with is just always worse, isn’t it?
 
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