Who Started Christianity?

[Logicman]

The above has to do with historical events that gathers anecdotal evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is not a "fact" it is the weakest form of reporting since it is highly susceptible to bias. Much needed imaginary bias.


So say people that do not have actual empirical evidence to support their claims.

What have you got?

 

[Logicman]

Yeah. I deleted most of your quote. I only included your quote that pertained to my response...

Messiah. That word in Jewish lore meant the one who would deliver the Palestinian Jews from gentile dominance (the Romans). When on Palm Sunday, when the crowd in Jerusalem shouted Messiah to Jesus they were declaring Jesus to be the one who would deliver Palestine back to the Jews. Do you see why Pilate thought Jesus might be the king of the Jews?

Sure, but Messiah ben Joseph - the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53, etc., rode into Jerusalem first.

Here are, off the top, some differences between Christianity and Judaism during Jesus' time:
(1) entrenched Jewish sects allowed Palestine to be ruled by the Romans (did they have a choice). These sects certainly didn't publicize the need for a messiah in Palestine. In fact, a successful messiah in Palestine would have destroyed their power in Jerusalem (given by the Romans).

(2) Praying and sacrificing in the temple in Jerusalem became a monied venture. Jewish supplicants paid for the right kind of sacrifice. Paid temple priests for the privilege to pray. Priests were one of the wealthiest Jews in Jerusalem.

(3) Women could not enter the temple in Jerusalem.

(4) The Holy of Holies was a chamber in the farthest interior of the temple in Jerusalem where, according to Jewish ideology, God was supposed to reside.
Only high ranking Jewish priests were allowed to enter this chamber.

IMO, the segment in the Bible, as Jesus died on the cross, referring to the veil of the temple being rent (torn) - referring to the seclusion of the Holy of Holies in the temple being destroyed - could mean either:
God was displeased with his limited access by special priests, God was displeased with the whole Holy of Holies arrangement in the temple, or God was displeased because Jesus died.

The rent veil meant the following:

From Hebrews chapter 10:

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body...

 

[Logicman]

Once again you have mistaken this forum for a church.

Not surprised you're stuck for a credible answer to the OP.

 

[phattonez]

Dissident Jews began it. Then it evolved through addition redaction editing and collecting scraps of other beliefs along the way.

Dissident Jews concocted a story that would get them persecuted by Jews and Romans? What?

 

[phattonez]

No Old Testament, no New.

No God, no son of God.

The New Testament is nothing more than a continuation of the Old. Christianity is just a different sect of Judaism.

Though if the claims of Jesus are correct, then the old religion is finished.

 

[phattonez]

There is one thing that Christianity has going for it, and worked very very well in the ealry days: it didn't interfere with culture. This is why we see Christian croses in so many different cultural forms, and churches etc. What it did however was have a huge effect on governments all over the world.

Tell me again who put an end to the gladitorial games?

 

[phattonez]

Don't be ridiculous. History shows nothing of the kind. Judaism rejects Christianity. Fail, Fail.

Modern Judaism is nothing like ancient Judaism. They're two separate religions entirely.

 

[phattonez]

The apostles didn't seem to know or believe that Jesus was a a divine being. This calls into question the entire idea that Jesus ever said he was the messiah. In fact, pre-resurretion, the apostles acted in the exact opposite way of people who thought they were a witness to the messiah.

Someone has never read an ounce of the Bible, then.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

That's a clear claim of divinity.

 

[phattonez]

Just like there was a political advantage in being able to assert that Jesus was divine.

A political advantage that didn't manifest itself for about 3 centuries with the conversion of Constantine? Wow those early Christians had quite a long time horizon. :roll:

 

[phattonez]

One would think that after being 1. Beheaded 2. Feed to lions. 3. Covered in animal skins to be ripped apart by dogs. 4 Hung on a cross and lit on fire.
That eventually you would say " eff the culture this isnt worth it "?

Don't forget skinned alive!

 

[TobyOne]

I've read many ounces of the bible and thats not a claim to divinity by Jesus. There are actually much better cites to use as Jesus' claim to divinity. Maybe YOU should read the bible.

Someone has never read an ounce of the Bible, then.

John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

That's a clear claim of divinity.

 

[phattonez]

Christianity during the life of Christ and his disciples was based in Judaism. A Christian had to practice Jewish law. The phrase the kingdom of heaven is at hand uttered by Jesus and, I believe, John the Baptist meant Palestine would soon be (rightfully) governed by the Jews.

Saul (Paul) could be regarded as the man that spread Christianity to the rest of the world. Paul made it possible for gentiles to be Christian. Then there was the Roman emperor Constantine who saw the vision, consequently won the battle, and converted the official Roman Empire's religion to Christianity.

The Council of Jerusalem put a quick end to that idea.

 

[phattonez]

I've read many ounces of the bible and thats not a claim to divinity by Jesus. There are actually much better cites to use as Jesus' claim to divinity. Maybe YOU should read the bible.

So He created the world but is not divine? Something does not follow there.

 

[Gringo allstar]

Don't forget skinned alive!

That's right, and crucified upside down as to not take anything away from Jesus. To me personally I look at these things as proof, but many don't.

 

[phattonez]

That's right, and crucified upside down as to not take anything away from Jesus. To me personally I look at this things as proof, but many don't.

Despite all of the evidence, people refuse to believe that the resurrection happened. When you start from the premise that resurrection is impossible, of course you will come to the conclusion that resurrection is impossible. They are not looking at the evidence objectively.

"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead."

 

[Gringo allstar]

So He created the world but is not divine? Something does not follow there.

The whole book of John is him claiming the deity of Jesus, im in agreement with you.

 

[TobyOne]

My statement was about Jesus himself claiming divinity. John 1 was not written by Jesus. If you're saying that since its the inspired word of god and therefore it may as well have been, well ok - but thats not the context of my statement specifically as it relates to the behavior of the apostles.

So He created the world but is not divine? Something does not follow there.

 

[phattonez]

My statement was about Jesus himself claiming divinity. John 1 was not written by Jesus. If you're saying that since its the inspired word of god and therefore it may as well have been, well ok - but thats not the context of my statement specifically as it relates to the behavior of the apostles.

Your original statement was thus:

The apostles didn't seem to know or believe that Jesus was a a divine being.

I showed, quite clearly, that your statement was false. They knew beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is divine.

 

[TobyOne]

You posted a verse from John. Did the apostles have access to John? When was John written? How would they know beyond any doubt unless Jesus told them?

Your original statement was thus:



I showed, quite clearly, that your statement was false. They knew beyond any doubt that Jesus Christ is divine.

 

[phattonez]

You posted a verse from John. Did the apostles have access to John? When was John written? How would they know beyond any doubt unless Jesus told them?

Have you heard of St. John?

 

[Visbek]

Linking to books we have to purchase to find out what you're saying? Get real. Make your case here.

Sorry, but I refuse. I'm not going to spend an hour summarizing decades of scholarship and research, for someone who has shown absolutely no intellectual curiosity about the topic.

If you actually want to know the answer, then do your own homework. It's not my job to help you score worthless polemical points that convince no one.

 

[Logicman]

Sorry, but I refuse. I'm not going to spend an hour summarizing decades of scholarship and research, for someone who has shown absolutely no intellectual curiosity about the topic.

If you actually want to know the answer, then do your own homework. It's not my job to help you score worthless polemical points that convince no one.

You've got nothing until you explain it here. This isn't a thread for your self-serving book recommendations, it's a debate forum for skeptic's views.

 

[R-C]

No, he was crucified, not fed to the lions.

So where is the political power you assert he died for. And btw, I was referring to the followers in response to you.

 

[William Rea]

It's really weird how your disowning the old testament almost as if it is an entirely separate religion.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

[William Rea]

That does not warrant a QED.

In this forum section it does. In the rarified atmosphere of the Religion section you would be right but, thinly disguised attempts to import Bible study into this section are noted.