Who let Vance into a grown up meeting ?

[kaerin]

He set up an ambush. Disgusting person.

 

[sanman]

He set up an ambush. Disgusting person.

We know who set up the ambush:

 

[kaerin]

Gossiping is not journalism. Slava Ukraini Heroiyam Slava.

 

[yankintx]

Nope . This "referendum" violated the constitution of Soviet Union.

Nope. Ukraine was artificially assembled and created by bolshevicks from several Russian lands.

blah blah blah

The same is true for ethnic Ukrainians in Donbass . They can safely move to Western Ukraine.

In Dec 1991 Yeltsin formally recognized Ukranian Independencem. It's not germain to the debate if the referendum in 1991 was in violation of the USSR Constitution.

Trump can blow smoke up MAGAS posterior, the fact remains Russia violated international law and our the aggressor.

 

[yankintx]

Before 1991 it WAS part of Russia/USSR. And the USSR constitution applied.
At the time of their illegal referendum it was a part of USSR.

It matters little now, Russia recognized Ukrainian Independence Dec 1991.

Until Putins army illegally invaded.

 

[dandolo2k]

In Dec 1991 Yeltsin formally recognized Ukranian Independencem. It's not germain to the debate if the referendum in 1991 was in violation of the USSR Constitution.

Trump can blow smoke up MAGAS posterior, the fact remains Russia violated international law and our the aggressor.

Yeltsin formally recognized Ukraine ?
Are you kidding ? What if I decide to formally recognize the independence of Texas and California ? Will it be OK ?
Who was this Yeltsin ? Nobody. Self proclaimed "President" of Russia . Just another traitor , the same as Navalny , Grachev and others. He had no power to recognize anything ..

 

[yankintx]

Yeltsin formally recognized Ukraine ?
Are you kidding ? What if I decide to formally recognize the independence of Texas and California ? Will it be OK ?
Who was this Yeltsin ? Nobody. Self proclaimed "President" of Russia . Just another traitor , the same as Navalny , Grachev and others. He had no power to recognize anything ..

The facts will not change even if you don't not approve.

Yeltsin was President and did it, move on ok

Too my knowledge Texas has not declared independence, if they do feel free to endorse. In a Democracy one has that freedom, not so much in Putins Russia.


Your letting your emotions dictate your posts, not a good idea in a debate forum.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Trump needed his weasel to parrot his bullying taunts.

Trump to Zelenskyy: You are nothing without us.

Vance: Yeah. What the Boss said. Nothing without us.

Vance later: You got him good, Boss. He knows his place now. Should I get your dry cleaning?

 

[snakestretcher]

It was clear to me that Zelensky wanted a guarantee from the US that should Putin break the peace deal, the US would come to their rescue. No guarantees.

I felt certain that there would have been a peace deal made by the end of the afternoon.
That doesn't look like this is on track though. However, the press is reporting President Trump asked President Zelensky to leave the WH because he said Zelensky is not ready for peace. Trump's goal is peace.

Laughable nonsense. Trump is only interested in what he can shaft Ukraine for. Zelensky is an irritant in the way of achieving his goal; a 'deal' for Ukraine's mineral wealth. Talk of peace is convenient, distracting rhetoric.

 

[yankintx]

Laughable nonsense. Trump is only interested in what he can shaft Ukraine for. Zelensky is an irritant in the way of achieving his 'deal' for Ukraine's mineral wealth.

Agree

And Trump wants that Nobel Peace Prize he would sell Ukraine to Putin as the price.

24 hours was Trumps promise, he out of his depth.

 

[Airyaman]

 

[Rogue Valley]

He set up an ambush. Disgusting person.

This ^^

Now it is obvious what the Russians and Trump administration were secretely discussing in Saudi Arabia.

How to engineer a US break in relations with Ukraine.

 

[oneworld2]

No, I'm pointing out it's irrelevant to Ukrainian concerns over Russia, which is their primary issue.

How is the US shitty record on sticking to things " irrelevant" wrt Ukrainian security concerns when they are going to be one of the guarantors of it ?

The reason Ukraine needs to conclude a peace agreement with Russia is pretty obvious, if you have any concerns of it continuing to be a viable state, how about survival or having a sea access on the borders?

 

[Jredbaron96]

How is the US shitty record on sticking to things " irrelevant" wrt Ukrainian security concerns when they are going to be one of the guarantors of it ?

The US invading Iraq has no bearing on this war and it's just an attempt to force a comparison on your part.

The reason Ukraine needs to conclude a peace agreement with Russia is pretty obvious, if you have any concerns of it continuing to be a viable state, how about survival or having a sea access on the borders?

Ukraine tried to negotiate a peace and the Russians made it clear they were just buying time for round 2.

Ukraine has no reason to trust Putin with regards to a treaty and thus seeks security arrangements. Why do you think otherwise?

 

[oneworld2]

The US invading Iraq has no bearing on this war and it's just an attempt to force a comparison on your part.

No it's letting you know that your whining about Russian violations of international law, considering your defence of your own state crimes, is like Ted Bundy whining about John Wayne Gacy being a murderer. You just can't see it.

Ukraine tried to negotiate a peace and the Russians made it clear they were just buying time for round 2.

That's what the western powers said about Minsk only they were referring ti Ukraine buying time to get ready for war.

Ukraine has no reason to trust Putin with regards to a treaty and thus seeks security arrangements. Why do you think otherwise?

Security arrangements from your own state which is a serial violator of them and international law generally. That's the point I made earlier.

If things continue and the current US loon balls ditch Ukraine on the weapons front Ukraine will suffer massively and lose even more territory, even possibly becoming land locked.

You somehow don't think that's a good enough reason to engage in negotiations to end the war. Trust? It's like rocking horse shit and if that is the stumbling block there is NO answer.

So much for your alleged concern for the people.

 

[btthegreat]

It was clear to me that Zelensky wanted a guarantee from the US that should Putin break the peace deal, the US would come to their rescue. No guarantees.

I felt certain that there would have been a peace deal made by the end of the afternoon.
That doesn't look like this is on track though. However, the press is reporting President Trump asked President Zelensky to leave the WH because he said Zelensky is not ready for peace. Trump's goal is peace.

No its not. Its total capitulation to Putin's dreams to re-create the Soviet Union by invasion, occupation and cultural and geopolitical cleansing.

 

[CaughtInThe]

If Trump dies in office we now know exactly the type of President Vance would be. Worse than Trump.

I can barely even consider thinking about it.

 

[Jredbaron96]

No it's letting you know that your whining about Russian violations of international law, considering your defence of your own state crimes,

No where here have I defended the invasion of Iraq.

That's what the western powers said about Minsk only they were referring ti Ukraine buying time to get ready for war.

Why do you pretend Misnk was some kind of honest accord and not forced on Ukraine by gunpoint?

Security arrangements from your own state which is a serial violator of them and international law generally. That's the point I made earlier.

You haven't listed any security arrangements violated.

If things continue and the current US loon balls ditch Ukraine on the weapons front Ukraine will suffer massively and lose even more territory, even possibly becoming land locked.

With the Russian army using civilian cars for assaults?

You somehow don't think that's a good enough reason to engage in negotiations to end the war. Trust? It's like rocking horse shit and if that is the stumbling block there is NO answer. So much for your alleged concern for the people.

Unlike you, I dont pretend Bucha and elsewhere didn't happen and know Russian occupation will not bring an end to Ukrainian suffering.

 

[dandolo2k]

The facts will not change even if you don't not approve.

Yeltsin was President and did it, move on ok

What is really not good to write in a debate forum , it’s an incredibly stupid bullshit like this . Can Donald Trump , being a president of US simply give Alaska back to Russia ? What are you going to say if he simply “do” it ?

Too my knowledge Texas has not declared independence, if they do feel free to endorse. In a Democracy one has that freedom, not so much in Putins Russia.
Your letting your emotions dictate your posts, not a good idea in a debate forum.

Nope it’s you the one who should move on . The president of Russia has NO power to trade Russian lands . I am not interested what Yeltsin did or what he didn’t . This is simply not in his power . The referendum of independence of Ukraine must have been approved by the legal authorities of the Soviet Union , and it wasn’t approved .
Anyway the Donbass republics have held their own independence Referenda and they are fully entitled to hold such
referenda .
Donbass republics have chosen independence from Ukranian empire , and that’s it !
just accept this fact and move on , according to your own advise .

 

[dandolo2k]

This ^^

Now it is obvious what the Russians and Trump administration were secretely discussing in Saudi Arabia.

How to engineer a US break in relations with Ukraine.

It’s better to build relations with United Russia then with Its parts.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Demand! By what authority ?

Quid Pro Quo. Trump demanded his country's rare metals, was he supposed to just hand them over?

 

[Manc Skipper]

It’s better to build relations with United Russia then with Its parts.

Gobbledegook.

 

[Showtime586]

Dear me. This seems to be a direct result of Russian disinformation that trump/vance have swallowed whole.
Ukraine may not be sweet people but they are clearly the victims here.
What they are being offered is a jack not a deal.

Vance seemed to be in the room to provoke as the two double teamed on Zelensky.

I think the aim is to clear the way for the trump surrender to putin. The choice for europe is clear. Stop Putin in Ukraine or stop him in the Baltics/Poland.

I think it would be easier here unless trump supplies arms to Moscow.

The american electorate put these half wits in place. They have a lot to answer for.

Vance is required to defend his "Big Daddy".
As usual, Vance is simply pathetic.

 

[oneworld2]

No where here have I defended the invasion of Iraq.

I never said you did ( and it would be foolish of you if you had ) but what I do pick up from you is your capacity to play down and thus support US hegemonic shenanigans.

Why do you pretend Misnk was some kind of honest accord and not forced on Ukraine by gunpoint?

There are no " honest accords" in such circumstances imo but you are deflecting from the fact that the Minsk agreements were supported by the US, the EU, Ukraine, Russia and the UNSC. Then Merkel let slip it was a ruse to buy time for NATO to train and arm Ukraine, the very thing you accused Russia of doing. Correct?

You haven't listed any security arrangements violated.

The UN Charter is a massive security arrangement that the USA has shit all over since forever, along with its allies for whom it protects by virtue of the veto power it has. It shit all over and left the ballistic missile treaties it had with Russia. It shit all over the Iran nuclear deal.

With the Russian army using civilian cars for assaults?

The map doesn't lie and that's with all of the massive US support. That you would believe they wouldn't lose more territory if it were absent is truly bizarre imo

Unlike you, I dont pretend Bucha and elsewhere didn't happen and know Russian occupation will not bring an end to Ukrainian suffering.

I don't pretend any such thing and agree that Russian occupation will be brutal and the suffering grave but if they were listening to you there would be even more Ukrainians living under it than there are now. But you care? lol

 

[Jredbaron96]

I never said you did ( and it would be foolish of you if you had ) but what I do pick up from you is your capacity to play down and thus support US hegemonic shenanigans.

This is just projection on your part to try to pivot something you feel more comfortable debating.

There are no " honest accords" in such circumstances imo but you are deflecting from the fact that the Minsk agreements were supported by the US, the EU, Ukraine, Russia and the UNSC.

I'm not deflecting, im pointing out to complain about the EU not negotiating in good faith is stupid when Russia wasn't either in the first place, and was forcing Ukraine to do after invading it. Merkel saying it was just to buy time is not even remotely the worst thing to come out of it.

The UN Charter is a massive security arrangement

No it's not?

It shit all over and left the ballistic missile treaties it had with Russia. It shit all over the Iran nuclear deal.

Neither of these were security arrangements.

The map doesn't lie and that's with all of the massive US support.

"Maps don't lie"

That you would believe they wouldn't lose more territory if it were absent is truly bizarre imo

Did I say that? No, i pointed the limitations of Russian abilities and the assumption their victory is inevitable is foolish.

I don't pretend any such thing and agree that Russian occupation will be brutal and the suffering grave but if they were listening to you there would be even more Ukrainians living under it than there are now. But you care? lol

I do care, clearly more than you, who thinks that Putin can be trusted to maintain a peace treaty when he has not backed down from.his war aims.