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Who let Vance into a grown up meeting ?

Lursa said:
Dont make stuff up. I have nothing against the Russian people. What a foolish, baseless statement
They didnt 'break away.' It was a legal and recognized referendum.
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Nope . This "referendum" violated the constitution of Soviet Union.
Lursa said:
Ukraine was not originally ethnically Russian, it was it's own land.
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Nope. Ukraine was artificially assembled and created by bolshevicks from several Russian lands.
Lursa said:
Er...otherwise "ethnic Russians" wouldnt have an issue now, would they? If it was originally Russian? :rolleyes: And If the ethnic Russians got comfy in Donbas during the USSR period, that's not Ukraine's fault.
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blah blah blah
Lursa said:
The ethnic Russians can always go and enjoy the company of other ethnic Russians if they dont want to live in Ukraine.
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The same is true for ethnic Ukrainians in Donbass . They can safely move to Western Ukraine.
 
Pyrite said:
AGAIN: Ukraine is not part of Russia/USSR. So, that nation's constitution doesn't apply.

Pay attention.
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Before 1991 it WAS part of Russia/USSR. And the USSR constitution applied.
At the time of their illegal referendum it was a part of USSR.
 
dandolo2k said:
Nope . This "referendum" violated the constitution of Soviet Union.

Nope. Ukraine was artificially assembled and created by bolshevicks from several Russian lands.

<snipped>
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Post #301


All you have to do to prove the validity of your claims above is copy and paste excerpts from credible sources and provide links to those credible sources.

Good luck. I use credible sources, and I haven't seen anything along these lines. But I might have missed something. I sure can't wait to see what you come up with.....


One more think: "Putin says" is not a credible source.
 
dandolo2k said:
Nope . This "referendum" violated the constitution of Soviet Union.

Nope. Ukraine was artificially assembled and created by bolshevicks from several Russian lands.

blah blah blah

The same is true for ethnic Ukrainians in Donbass . They can safely move to Western Ukraine.
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There is no Soviet Union and it was all done legally and peacefully. The Soviet Union invaded and took over Ukraine in 1919...so their independence in '91 was wholly justified. Now you are just posting some party line you've been suckered into believing.

You are "spinning" history. And ethnic Ukraines' shouldnt have to leave Ukraine land just because some ethnic Russians got comfy there during the Soviet Union's rule.
 
dandolo2k said:
Before 1991 it WAS part of Russia/USSR. And the USSR constitution applied.
At the time of their illegal referendum it was a part of USSR.
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(Post #302)


All you have to do is to establish the legal basis for the above by doing this:

Copy and paste excerpts from credible sources (you don't make the determination of whether a source is credible, btw) to which you post the links.

Show us you're willing to do the hard work of trying to substantiate your statements.
 
Juin said:
They have been leaving since 2014. And they do not keave with the shirts on their backs. They leave along with their lands
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Pyrite said:
(Post #283)
I look forward to your corroborating this claim via international laws that state, clearly, that any citizen that wants to leave his/her/their country has the legal right to take his/her/their "land" with them - and to join that "land" to/with another country.

(I surely hope you can see how ridiculous this claim - "They leave along with their lands" - looks.)
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Any citizen is your submission, not mine. The discussion is about a population, the Russians of Ukraine. The suggestion from the pro Kyiv side of the board is that if they dont want to be part of Ukraine they should leave their lands, with nothing but the shirts on their backs, and cross to Russia. A population leaves by seceding. And there are gazillions of historical precedents

At some point in time his Britannic Majesty King George III's subjects in the thirteen colonies in N America took the decision to part from Britain. Going by the pro Kyiv argument they should have left the colonies and headed elsewhere. No, they left with their lands.

At a later point in time in the United States, a bunch of States chosed to leave. They were not successful. But if they had been successfull they would have left with the lands of the Confederacy

In Serbia, the Kosovars, a disaffected minority, chosed to leave. Nato and the Eu backed them with force and separated them from Serbia. By the pro Kyiv arguments the Kosovars should have left Serbia and crossed over to Albania
 
Pyrite said:
Donbass is part of Ukraine. Russia had and has no right to invade Ukraine.
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So if a region is part of a country it cannot secede?

The right to secede is natural; provided the party seceding is powerful enough, or has sponsors powerful to make it possible. The thirteen colonies had every right to secede from Britain; and with aid from France pulled it off


Pyrite said:
What you're saying is clear: Hitler had every right to demand he be given Czechoslovakia. Had others not caved and given him most of that country, Hitler would have had every right to invade and take Czechoslovakia by force.

THIS is what you're supporting: Hitler's takeovers of other countries.
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Germany, not just Hitler, had a case for Sudetenland. It was an ethnic German populated land that they lost from WWI. That was not a uniquely Hitler issue. It is likely any other German government, when Germany recovered from WWI, may have brought up the issues. European history is rife with such disputes. Lands gained, lands lost, all the time.

Incidentally the US and Eu did basically the same thing in Serbia that Russia is doing in Ukraine. Nato/Eu attacked and dismembered Serbia to pry loose Kosovo. It sucks, but that was what happened. It would be absurd to say Nato/Eu was playing it from Hitler's playbook
 
Lursa said:
Ukraine's legal referendum was recognized and codified. Peacefully. Why do you make stuff up? Just because Donbass was populated by a lot of ethnic Russians during USSR rule doenst mean they are entitled to take Ukraine land after its independence.
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Why not? Nations are formed and broken up all the time. What is so different about Ukraine? And it is not Ukraine land like it was a gift from Ukraine to the Russians of Donbass. It is lands they have been living on for centuries. If they want to leave Ukraine, they leave with their lands.

This is not a concept foreign to the US or Europe. The Kosovars of Serbia wanted out of Serbia, were they supposed to up and leave to Albania? No. The US and Eu fought Serbia to separate Kosovo from Serbia
 
Juin said:
Why not? Nations are formed and broken up all the time. What is so different about Ukraine? And it is not Ukraine land like it was a gift from Ukraine to the Russians of Donbass. It is lands they have been living on for centuries. If they want to leave Ukraine, they leave with their lands.

This is not a concept foreign to the US or Europe. The Kosovars of Serbia wanted out of Serbia, were they supposed to up and leave to Albania? No. The US and Eu fought Serbia to separate Kosovo from Serbia
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I listed at least 2 reasons. Please address them directly because they mostly refute what you wrote.
 
Juin said:
Why not? Nations are formed and broken up all the time. What is so different about Ukraine? And it is not Ukraine land like it was a gift from Ukraine to the Russians of Donbass. It is lands they have been living on for centuries. If they want to leave Ukraine, they leave with their lands.

This is not a concept foreign to the US or Europe. The Kosovars of Serbia wanted out of Serbia, were they supposed to up and leave to Albania? No. The US and Eu fought Serbia to separate Kosovo from Serbia
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tRumPutiNetanyahu are following in the steps of WW II dictators.
 
Lursa said:
I listed at least 2 reasons. Please address them directly because they mostly refute what you wrote.
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This is what you posted:

Lursa said:
Ukraine's legal referendum was recognized and codified. Peacefully. Why do you make stuff up? Just because Donbass was populated by a lot of ethnic Russians during USSR rule doenst mean they are entitled to take Ukraine land after its independence.


1 Referendum or not, what makes Ukraine, or any other nation for that matter, indivisible?

2 If the populations of Donbass want out of Ukraine, that is their right. Just as it was the right of the thirteen colonies to leave Britain. Just as it was the right of the Confederate States to leave the United States. The only condition is that the populations leaving are powerful enough to pull it off
 
Juin said:
2 If the populations of Donbass want out of Ukraine, that is their right.
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The population of Donbas didn't want out to Ukraine. That's the part you keep leaving out.
 
Juin said:
Why not? Nations are formed and broken up all the time. What is so different about Ukraine? And it is not Ukraine land like it was a gift from Ukraine to the Russians of Donbass. It is lands they have been living on for centuries. If they want to leave Ukraine, they leave with their lands.

This is not a concept foreign to the US or Europe. The Kosovars of Serbia wanted out of Serbia, were they supposed to up and leave to Albania? No. The US and Eu fought Serbia to separate Kosovo from Serbia
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Linc said:
tRumPutiNetanyahu are following in the steps of WW II dictators.
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Land grabs are unique to WWII dictators? How did the British and French acquire global empires?
 
Lursa said:
There is no Soviet Union and it was all done legally and peacefully. The Soviet Union invaded and took over Ukraine in 1919...so their independence in '91 was wholly justified. Now you are just posting some party line you've been suckered into believing.

You are "spinning" history. And ethnic Ukraines' shouldnt have to leave Ukraine land just because some ethnic Russians got comfy there during the Soviet Union's rule.
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Jesus....

You sound just like my Ukrainian ex-wife!

Her and her parents actually trained military drills in Montreal planning a coup to take back their "sacred land". When you see kids holding broomsticks like rifles you want to laugh, until you see the tears in their eyes longing for a land they've never seen with the blackest soil on earth.
 
Callen said:
That was the most disgusting display by Vance and Trump I have ever witnessed. Now Trump has tweeted out saying Zelensky disrespected the Oval Office!!!!! So much for Trump's deal making!!!!
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It was Trump and Vance who disrespected Zelensky and the Ukranian people. I am not usually shocked at what Trump says, I have become desensitized. But this was a new low for American diplomacy, the clowns are in charge, and Putin is over joyed.
 
Fearandloathing said:
Considering the bully treatment and the outright hostile body language "Z" showed balls!

When Trump waves his hands back and forth he's showing deep frustration - the gesture is a 'wipe out' where he is wiping away the uncomfortable shit Zelenski is saying

This was all STAGED for the cameras to show how tough Donny & Timmy can be in a two on one in the White House.

Cowards are always cowards.

Did anyone else notice that both Trump and Vance have tiny hands??????
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Its the tiny brains that concern me.
 
Juin said:
This is what you posted:

Lursa said:
Ukraine's legal referendum was recognized and codified. Peacefully. Why do you make stuff up? Just because Donbass was populated by a lot of ethnic Russians during USSR rule doenst mean they are entitled to take Ukraine land after its independence.


1 Referendum or not, what makes Ukraine, or any other nation for that matter, indivisible?

2 If the populations of Donbass want out of Ukraine, that is their right. Just as it was the right of the thirteen colonies to leave Britain. Just as it was the right of the Confederate States to leave the United States. The only condition is that the populations leaving are powerful enough to pull it off
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Keep reading. I discussed all that.
 
dandolo2k said:
RUssia has every possible right to back separatists after the armed mob in Kiev has overthrown a democratically elected government of Victor Yanukovich in bloody violent coup. The people of Eatern Ukraine never elected the "interim" government of Yatsenyuk and his fellas from Ukrainian nationalists junta. So the revolt and uprising in Donbass was very logical and consistent.
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Why does Russia have the right to interfere in the domestic politics of another country? Does Ukraine possess that right relative to Russia? Does Zelensky have the right to assassinate Putin, for example?
 
yankintx said:
It was Trump and Vance who disrespected Zelensky and the Ukranian people. I am not usually shocked at what Trump says, I have become desensitized. But this was a new low for American diplomacy, the clowns are in charge, and Putin is over joyed.
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The world is watching on in amazement. Its difficult to see how magas can normalise that farce.
Obviously you would expect russian agents to do so.
The Question now is can the worlds democracies support Ukraine through this.
The US is not a reliable partner any more.When trump is ejected in 4 years the new president has a huge job in repairing the countries reputation.
The US has tried this cost cutting isolationism before. It ended up costing them a lot more than just doing the decent thing up front.
Trumps regime is the worlds first conspiracy theorist regime. They arent making a good job of it.
 
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