Whites still waiting for Civil War "thank you" from Black people

[aegyptos]

Bullshit. You are trying to pick a fight, by reading things into what I write that is not there and not the first time you do that.

On top of that you are also making freaking excuses for American slave owners by saying that Americans treated them better.. what the hell is that an attitude.. they were slaves!, held against thier will and sold like cattle.

I know fully well about Europes dark slavery past, as I have posted in the post prior to this one. Saddly I had not seen this attack on me before I posted the other reply, where I again corrected your baseless attacks on Europe.. I guess I should not have made it a so "nice" reply after all. I also know fully well that most slaves went to central and south america, but that again was not the point of the OP and you know it.

The OP was about the US civil war and the USA, not south America, not Brazil, not France, not Denmark, but the USA. You are the one bringing in other nations to divert attention away from the wrongs of the US, even though you later on in the thread managed to admit wrong doing.. which pleases me as you rarely do that in your partisan attacks on people that dont agree with you. Or is it you just have a personal thing against me and choose to attack anything I write?

Get a grip, Pete. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.

Only 22 years between the abolition of slavery in the US and the British Empire, not 80. I don't know where you people get this idea that you were far ahead of in the abolition of black slavery. Liverpool and Bristol and some of Britian's largest fortunes were founded on the bodies of millions of transported slaves. Remember that.

Its a well know fact that slaves sent to the European colonies were dead men comparedc with the one's sent to the American continent. There are reasons for this but you don't know what they are.

I don't write to draw attention away from American slavery but to bring some equity to the discussion. You would not have mentioned that Europe is responsible for the vast majority of slaves and slave deaths if I had not dragged you kicking and screaming through the mud.

I don't have personal thing against you anymore than I have any one else here. I feel compelled however to correct you when you take cheap Euro shots at the United States, a subject you know very little about.

 

[Kelzie]

Black people don't tip? Wtf?

Um yeah. We're talking like 5% max. In my six years of on again off again serving I have never, never gotten a good tip from black people. To be fair, hispanics are also poor tippers. Though not with the same consistancy.

 

[PeteEU]

Only 22 years between the abolition of slavery in the US and the British Empire, not 80.

Let me remind you what you said

Slavery was banned in most of New England long before it was in Old England
or any part of the Continent.

Hence you were wrong, as usual. The UK banned slavery in the British isles long before the US..hell they banned it before the US was even born! They also banned slavery and slave trade, decades before the US did as a nation. With France its the same btw, long before the US.

Even the French had offically gotten rid of slavery before the US (1848 for the second time, first time in 1802). Let me give you some dates.. Portugal in 1761 (colonies in 1836), Denmark 1848 (all colonies too), Spain (1837, colonies later), Mexico 1829, Russia 1861.

Yes some countries did abolish slaves after the US, countries like Brazil (1888), China (1910), Afganistan (1923) Iraq, (1924) and in 2003 Niger. Note not one European nation. The closest is the Netherlands (Holland) in 1863, but here again it was before the US!

I don't know where you people get this idea that you were far ahead of in the abolition of black slavery.

Because we were. The facts speak for themselvs. But let me guess, you are gonna claim that Vermont and a few other Northern States had abolished slavery before 1865... fine then I raise you the UK banning slavery in the UK in 1772...

Liverpool and Bristol and some of Britian's largest fortunes were founded on the bodies of millions of transported slaves. Remember that.

Yes, and where have I denied that? In fact I have not even mentioned it, because it was not part of the OPs post! Are you forgetting that the north and south also became rich off the backs of black slaves, and later on near slavery among whites during the industrial revolution?

Its a well know fact that slaves sent to the European colonies were dead men comparedc with the one's sent to the American continent. There are reasons for this but you don't know what they are.

Gezz you dont give up on your twisting of your facts. News flash, the "european colonies" included what is known as the US for quite a while. And news flash again, its not part of the OP's debate, that the European colonies were bad or worse than the US when it concerns black slavery.

I don't write to draw attention away from American slavery but to bring some equity to the discussion.

HELLO, the whole freaking debate was started on only American slavery and the civil war. You are trying to derail the thread into another US vs Europe hate thread, where you know you can bury the OP's meaning in attakcs against Europe. If you want to debate slavery and Europe, then start your own freaking thread, and I will join you there.

You would not have mentioned that Europe is responsible for the vast majority of slaves and slave deaths if I had not dragged you kicking and screaming through the mud.

I agree I would not have mentioned it, because that was not the freaking point of the OP! It had no business in the thread as it was a debate of the internal US civil war regarding among other things, slavery.

I don't have personal thing against you anymore than I have any one else here. I feel compelled however to correct you when you take cheap Euro shots at the United States, a subject you know very little about.

Okay the correct me. Correct me in what I wrote in the first post I made. What was wrong there? And remember, stay on topic, dont drift off. I wrote:

You forget the thousands upon thousands of blacks that died before the civil war, being beaten to death, worked to death, lynched, or died on the slave ships coming across from Africa.

Now you some how twisted that comment and made the figure into "millions", again prove me wrong that "thousands upon thousands" over the near 2 centuries that slavery was legal in the US (or the area known as US), did not die due to the methods I posted.

And of course that the civil war was not about free slaves/blacks, but about states rights and economic power.

Am I wrong here? I dont think so, but prove me wrong.

In fact one could easily claim that blacks in the south were not really free until the 1960s when segregation was pronounced illegal.

And am I wrong here? Were blacks allowed to vote, goto the same toilet as whites, on the same buses? Prove me wrong, correct me!

 

[missypea]

But, maybe if black people started tipping like the rest of polite society, I might be more inclined to feel sorry for them.

I don't see where anyone is asking that you feel sorry for black people, but if you need tips in order to feel sympathy for anyone, that's a statement that demonstrates a pretty big disconnect.

 

[missypea]

Slavery is America's national stain and disgrace.

Yes it is. Florida should be commended for standing up and acknowledging it.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I don't see where anyone is asking that you feel sorry for black people, but if you need tips in order to feel sympathy for anyone, that's a statement that demonstrates a pretty big disconnect.

Or it demonstrates quality of service rendered?

 

[Kelzie]

I don't see where anyone is asking that you feel sorry for black people, but if you need tips in order to feel sympathy for anyone, that's a statement that demonstrates a pretty big disconnect.

Really? Someone brought up apologizing to black people. How in the world can I apologize to someone if I don't feel sorry for them?

And mutual respect goes a long way in this world. You respect me and the income I'm trying to make and I'll be able to respect the things that are important to you more.

 

[Kelzie]

Or it demonstrates quality of service rendered?

I would suspect that if I got bad tips from everyone. Since I do not, I'm left with my original conclusion.

 

[mikhail]

There is some very strange thinking in this.

Im white but why should i expect thanks from black people for something both of us had nothing to do with?

If there is a guy who happens to black in front of me in line to get a train ticket he finds he has lost his wallet and i pay for him i expect a thank you.But for another white person to expect a thank you for my act is ridiculous.

White and black people are fighting together as we speak im sure they are comrades and thank each other for whatever they may have done for each other.

People of all races perform acts of great heroism and great evil but they own the honor or dishonor.Its like when people brag about being born on the same day as some great person it says nothing about your own attributes.

 

[The silenced majority]

Mikail: I created this thread to mock the "Fla legislature makes formal apology for slavery" thread.


It's funny that people will hail a completely irrelevant thing like a modern state legislature apologizing for something that they had absolutely nothing to do with (slavery), yet look at me skeptically for suggesting that we should thank all of the soldiers (who to a large extent were white, just as a vast majority of slaves were black) who died to eliminate slavery.

I'm glad some can see both as being equally ridiculous and irrelevant.

That is in no way to minimize slavery nor the sacrifices made by those who died to eliminate it.

 

[mikhail]

Mikail: I created this thread to mock the "Fla legislature makes formal apology for slavery" thread.


It's funny that people will hail a completely irrelevant thing like a modern state legislature apologizing for something that they had absolutely nothing to do with (slavery), yet look at me skeptically for suggesting that we should thank all of the soldiers (who to a large extent were white, just as a vast majority of slaves were black) who died to eliminate slavery.

I'm glad some can see both as being equally ridiculous and irrelevant.

That is in no way to minimize slavery nor the sacrifices made by those who died to eliminate it.

:3oops:

Well im quite embarassed yea your totally right then.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I would suspect that if I got bad tips from everyone. Since I do not, I'm left with my original conclusion.

I just wondered as there might be all sorts of reasons.

i.e.
1 - are blacks on the same income levels as their white counterparts visiting the restaurants? I seem to remember reading of some extremely generous black "tippers" but they had the money to do this.

Surprise! Oprah gives audience new cars - DAYTIME AND TALK SHOWS - MSNBC.com

Your average restaurant visitor may not be on similar wages to white visitors and visits could be less frequent and there isn't the capital to pay a tip.

2 - is there a self-fulfilling prophesy at work? You don't expect your black
guests to tip as much so you don't put the effort in at table and they then don't pay much in response?

3 - is there a cultural thing going on? Do you suspect that genetically all blacks don't tip or they culturally are brought up not to tip?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--snip-- suggesting that we should thank all of the soldiers (who to a large extent were white, just as a vast majority of slaves were black) who died to eliminate slavery --snip--

I'm not American and haven't been there, do you have public records / documents from the soldier conscripts who went to war for the North proving that those soldiers enlisted or joined specifically to fight an anti-slavery war?

More generally, I have yet to read main reason of the war was slavery. Could you help me find such proof? As far as I read, there was a civil war following which the 14th and 15th Amendments were enacted - but when were Blacks really allowed to vote?

(hint: Voting Rights Act of 1965)

 

[the makeout hobo]

I just wondered as there might be all sorts of reasons.

i.e.
1 - are blacks on the same income levels as their white counterparts visiting the restaurants? I seem to remember reading of some extremely generous black "tippers" but they had the money to do this.

I'm sorry. If you don't have the money to tip, don't go out to a restaurant with waiters.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I'm sorry. If you don't have the money to tip, don't go out to a restaurant with waiters.

You serious?

I don't suppose you ever tried that suggestion on any Restaurateurs for brilliance?

 

[Kelzie]

I just wondered as there might be all sorts of reasons.

i.e.
1 - are blacks on the same income levels as their white counterparts visiting the restaurants? I seem to remember reading of some extremely generous black "tippers" but they had the money to do this.

Surprise! Oprah gives audience new cars - DAYTIME AND TALK SHOWS - MSNBC.com

Your average restaurant visitor may not be on similar wages to white visitors and visits could be less frequent and there isn't the capital to pay a tip.

To some degree I believe this. Another large customer base at the restaurant I work at is young Marines, also a very poor demographic. While they also often tip very badly (I actually got a dime from a guy that kept me there an hour past closing last night), usually around 10%, they will occasionally tip the standard 20%. Not so with black people.

2 - is there a self-fulfilling prophesy at work? You don't expect your black
guests to tip as much so you don't put the effort in at table and they then don't pay much in response?

Yes and no. A fight breaks out in the server section every time we see a table that won't tip well walk in. No one wants to take them. I'm not sure what the other servers treat them like, however, I try to give everyone the same degree of service and professionalism, no matter how much I think they will give me. Am I 100% successful? I don't know, I've never been waited on by me. I have regulars that constantly tip 10% that request my section so I must be concealing some of that disgust.

3 - is there a cultural thing going on? Do you suspect that genetically all blacks don't tip or they culturally are brought up not to tip?

Obviously cultural. There's no bad tipping gene. :lol: It's not much of an excuse though. When foreigners eating out in this country take the time to learn about the tipping rules but people who were raised here there entire life think it's optional, I take issue. It's not optional. It's my income people are screwing with.

 

[mikhail]

As for the tipping question europeans generally tip as much as Americans do.In America it seems like its part of the price for everything.Your best off not tipping and just dont go to the same place twice.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--snip-- In America it seems like its part of the price for everything --snip--

This is the strange bit. Why aren't waiters paid properly in the first place?

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--snip-- Another large customer base at the restaurant I work at is young Marines, also a very poor demographic. While they also often tip very badly (I actually got a dime from a guy that kept me there an hour past closing last night), usually around 10%, they will occasionally tip the standard 20%. Not so with black people --snip--

So we're getting somewhere. Do you believe the black clients that visit have the same capacity (financial) to tip that other wealthier clients do?

 

[Kelzie]

So we're getting somewhere. Do you believe the black clients that visit have the same capacity (financial) to tip that other wealthier clients do?

I'm not sure I can phrase this correctly, but I'll run the risk of looking like a bitch. I don't care if they have the financial capacity or not. If you can't afford to go out and eat, tip included, stay home. No one's giving them a pass on paying the food bill, they shouldn't be given a pass to pay their servers because it's too expensive. I'd much rather have one less table which frees up my time to pay attention to people who know how to dine out. Stiffing your server is not an acceptable way to keep your costs down, any more that dine and dashing. If a service is provided, it should be payed for.

 

[the makeout hobo]

I'm not sure I can phrase this correctly, but I'll run the risk of looking like a bitch. I don't care if they have the financial capacity or not. If you can't afford to go out and eat, tip included, stay home. No one's giving them a pass on paying the food bill, they shouldn't be given a pass to pay their servers because it's too expensive. I'd much rather have one less table which frees up my time to pay attention to people who know how to dine out. Stiffing your server is not an acceptable way to keep your costs down, any more that dine and dashing. If a service is provided, it should be payed for.

She said what I was trying to, but better.

 

[mikhail]

I'm not sure I can phrase this correctly, but I'll run the risk of looking like a bitch. I don't care if they have the financial capacity or not. If you can't afford to go out and eat, tip included, stay home. No one's giving them a pass on paying the food bill, they shouldn't be given a pass to pay their servers because it's too expensive. I'd much rather have one less table which frees up my time to pay attention to people who know how to dine out. Stiffing your server is not an acceptable way to keep your costs down, any more that dine and dashing. If a service is provided, it should be payed for.

Anyone is free not to pay a tip though.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

--snip-- If you can't afford to go out and eat, tip included, stay home --snip--

I still don't get the economic principle here either. The restaurant owner needs paying clients to keep the business running (and pay half you salary it seems). The other half of your salary comes from the paying client who is under no legal obligation to pay you, pay your pension or national insurance (or whatever subtractions you get from your pay).

You are in effect complaining that someone who has no obligation doesn't feel obliged to pay you extra? Would you ask the poor servicemen that come in and can't pay 20% or whatever the standard is not to come in either?

Stiffing your server is not an acceptable way to keep your costs down, any more that dine and dashing. If a service is provided, it should be payed for.

This is the bit I don't really understand - the customer is getting the blame when your employer fails to pay you a proper wage for being a service provider? Isn't the employer the one keeping costs down by not paying you a proper wage?

 

[Kelzie]

I still don't get the economic principle here either. The restaurant owner needs paying clients to keep the business running (and pay half you salary it seems). The other half of your salary comes from the paying client who is under no legal obligation to pay you, pay your pension or national insurance (or whatever subtractions you get from your pay).

I get the vast majority of my income from tips. While it's true they are unfortunately under no legal obligation to tip, if I made no tips I wouldn't be working there. I doubt many servers would work for just what they make hourly, it's a shitty job. I have no idea how it evolved that way in the US. What started as an extra has become the main part of a server's wages. But that's the way it is. Therefore, when I do my job well and don't get paid for it, it upsets me as I imagine it would anyone else.

You are in effect complaining that someone who has no obligation doesn't feel obliged to pay you extra? Would you ask the poor servicemen that come in and can't pay 20% or whatever the standard is not to come in either?

Of course. I am an equal opportunity hater. :mrgreen: And they are under an obligation. Not a legal one, but definitely a social one.

This is the bit I don't really understand - the customer is getting the blame when your employer fails to pay you a proper wage for being a service provider? Isn't the employer the one keeping costs down by not paying you a proper wage?

You can't blame the restaurant for acting like all other restaurants act. That's just the way the industry is in the US. Servers make poor wages but expect to make up the rest of their income in tips. If people want to stop paying tips but have the restaurant pay me 20% of my sales at the end of the night, that works for me too. I just don't see it happening.

 

[Kelzie]

Anyone is free not to pay a tip though.

May bad karma haunt you till the end of your days. Seriously.