White House Is Weighing a Syria Retreat

[JANFU]

Heya FMW. :2wave: What about the Kurds?

Morning NMC
Posted this yesterday
Syria will bog the Russians and Syrians down. Assad's ethic grouping is small. Families are hiding their son from enlistment in the Army. Syrian Army overstretched and worn out after so many years.
Approx 75 % of Syria is Sunni. Then the Kurds have their safe areas, the Saudi and Turks want Assad out.

Addition- The Policy in Syria has failed, no going back and crying about it - Turkey - Saudi- Qatar- and the US all pulling in different directions. Qatar trying to play the middle by supporting all political stripes of Rebels - Turkey - in a pout that their main policy lead, removing Assad was not going to happen, in particular with ISIL on the move.
Then we have the Mullah the runs Turkey, corrupt as hell, starts a war with Kurds. Just when a peace deal was within sight. Why - Needs an enemy for the upcoming elections.
Let the Russians, Iranians and Hezbollah spill their blood.

 

[MMC]

The slow, quiet withdrawal begins. That sure didn't take long. Obama is an open book on international affairs, and is played like the chump he is.

He definitely is an open book HB. Not just to Putin.....but to the Iranians too.




Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts.....


Cruise missiles fired from warships, the latest jets pounding far-off targets: Russian President Vladimir Putin's show of strength in Syria looks aimed at proving that a resurgent Moscow can rival the West, analysts said.

But quashing the Islamic State and other extremist groups, the stated objective of Russia’s campaign, is partly a broader attempt to compete with -- and even intimidate -- the West, analysts said. "Rather than being primarily about Syria, or primarily about ISIS, this dispute is about a global principle," Matthew Rojansky, the director of the Washington-based Kennan Institute, told AFP.

"The dispute has gone beyond the level of diplomatic manoeuvering and economic pressure. It has now gotten to the point of using military assets to make a point." .....snip~

Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts - Yahoo News

 

[MMC]

I wish them the best of luck. Personally I wouldn't waste another life or another dollar on the middle east (Israel excpted.) It is a rat hole and I'm content to allow it to destroy itself.

Well, the Kurds would support Israel and we can do business with them without getting stabbed in the back. At least the visual would be enough for the Sunni and the Shia Arabs.

 

[MMC]

Morning NMC
Posted this yesterday
Syria will bog the Russians and Syrians down. Assad's ethic grouping is small. Families are hiding their son from enlistment in the Army. Syrian Army overstretched and worn out after so many years.
Approx 75 % of Syria is Sunni. Then the Kurds have their safe areas, the Saudi and Turks want Assad out.

Addition- The Policy in Syria has failed, no going back and crying about it - Turkey - Saudi- Qatar- and the US all pulling in different directions. Qatar trying to play the middle by supporting all political stripes of Rebels - Turkey - in a pout that their main policy lead, removing Assad was not going to happen, in particular with ISIL on the move.
Then we have the Mullah the runs Turkey, corrupt as hell, starts a war with Kurds. Just when a peace deal was within sight. Why - Needs an enemy for the upcoming elections.
Let the Russians, Iranians and Hezbollah spill their blood.

Heya JF. :2wave: So some think.....not with the amount of attacks Putin is laying out. Once Assad's opposition is destroyed. Then that will just leave Daesh and AQ. Which Daesh is the immediate concern then. I think some are making to much about Russia will get bog down. I think more hope so. Than the reality.



Syria intervention plan fueled by oil interests, not chemical weapon concern.....

So what was this unfolding strategy to undermine Syria and Iran all about? According to retired NATO Secretary General Wesley Clark, a memo from the Office of the US Secretary of Defense just a few weeks after 9/11 revealed plans to "attack and destroy the governments in 7 countries in five years", starting with Iraq and moving on to "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran." In a subsequent interview, Clark argues that this strategy is fundamentally about control of the region's vast oil and gas resources.

The report noted especially that Syria is among several "downstream countries that are becoming increasingly water scarce as their populations grow", increasing a risk of conflict. Thus, although the RAND document fell far short of recognising the prospect of an 'Arab Spring', it illustrates that three years before the 2011 uprisings, US defence officials were alive to the region's growing instabilities, and concerned by the potential consequences for stability of Gulf oil.

These strategic concerns, motivated by fear of expanding Iranian influence, impacted Syria primarily in relation to pipeline geopolitics. In 2009 - the same year former French foreign minister Dumas alleges the British began planning operations in Syria - Assad refused to sign a proposed agreement with Qatar that would run a pipeline from the latter's North field, contiguous with Iran's South Pars field, through Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and on to Turkey, with a view to supply European markets - albeit crucially bypassing Russia. An Agence France-Presse report claimed Assad's rationale was "to protect the interests of [his] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas". ....snip~

Syria intervention plans fuelled by oil interests, not chemical weapon concerns | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | The Guardian

 

[MMC]

More on it.....


In May 2007, a presidential finding revealed that Bush had authorised CIA operations against Iran. Anti-Syria operations were also in full swing around this time as part of this covert programme, according to Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker. A range of US government and intelligence sources told him that the Bush administration had "cooperated with Saudi Arabia's government, which is Sunni, in clandestine operations" intended to weaken the Shi'ite Hezbollah in Lebanon. "The US has also taken part in clandestine operations aimed at Iran and its ally Syria," wrote Hersh, "a byproduct" of which is "the bolstering of Sunni extremist groups" hostile to the United States and "sympathetic to al-Qaeda." He noted that "the Saudi government, with Washington's approval, would provide funds and logistical aid to weaken the government of President Bashir Assad, of Syria," with a view to pressure him to be "more conciliatory and open to negotiations" with Israel. One faction receiving covert US "political and financial support" through the Saudis was the exiled Syrian Muslim Brotherhood.

According to former French foreign minister Roland Dumas, Britain had planned covert action in Syria as early as 2009: "I was in England two years before the violence in Syria on other business", he told French television: "I met with top British officials, who confessed to me that they were preparing something in Syria. This was in Britain not in America. Britain was preparing gunmen to invade Syria.".....snip~

The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline plan was a "direct slap in the face" to Qatar's plans. No wonder Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan, in a failed attempt to bribe Russia to switch sides, told President Vladmir Putin that "whatever regime comes after" Assad, it will be "completely" in Saudi Arabia's hands and will "not sign any agreement allowing any Gulf country to transport its gas across Syria to Europe and compete with Russian gas exports", according to diplomatic sources. When Putin refused, the Prince vowed military action.....snip~ same link.



The very same Lebanon that BO peep turned around and armed with a few tanks and Hellfire Missiles.

 

[JANFU]

He definitely is an open book HB. Not just to Putin.....but to the Iranians too.




Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts.....


Cruise missiles fired from warships, the latest jets pounding far-off targets: Russian President Vladimir Putin's show of strength in Syria looks aimed at proving that a resurgent Moscow can rival the West, analysts said.

But quashing the Islamic State and other extremist groups, the stated objective of Russia’s campaign, is partly a broader attempt to compete with -- and even intimidate -- the West, analysts said. "Rather than being primarily about Syria, or primarily about ISIS, this dispute is about a global principle," Matthew Rojansky, the director of the Washington-based Kennan Institute, told AFP.

"The dispute has gone beyond the level of diplomatic manoeuvering and economic pressure. It has now gotten to the point of using military assets to make a point." .....snip~

Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts - Yahoo News

The Russians do want to expand their leverage. and have an utter disregard for causalities inflicted.

With Syria heavily Sunni, how hard is it for Saudi and Turkey to arm rebels?? opinion asked for please. This would be after ISIl and other rebels are decimated to no longer a threat level, the causalities for the Syrian Army, Iraqi Army and Russians, if they engage if combat, will be heavy. Let them bleed themselves white, let the body bags arrive at home. Russian do remember the lies they were fed on how well it was going in AStan.
The west can turn the area into a sinkhole for them. Arms flow thru Turkey and Jordan. Their will be more than enough Sunni Syrians looking for blood vengeance.

 

[bubbabgone]

Because you know.... the strong retreat, but taking over the middle east is a sign of weakness on Putins part.




Wait. They no longer doubt that? Did they ever doubt that?



For the love of...

....how naïve are these people???




:doh

I'm going to start drinking now.

 

[MMC]

The Russians do want to expand their leverage. and have an utter disregard for causalities inflicted.

With Syria heavily Sunni, how hard is it for Saudi and Turkey to arm rebels?? opinion asked for please. This would be after ISIl and other rebels are decimated to no longer a threat level, the causalities for the Syrian Army, Iraqi Army and Russians, if they engage if combat, will be heavy. Let them bleed themselves white, let the body bags arrive at home. Russian do remember the lies they were fed on how well it was going in AStan.
The west can turn the area into a sinkhole for them. Arms flow thru Turkey and Jordan. Their will be more than enough Sunni Syrians looking for blood vengeance.

It wont be hard for Qatar the Saud and Muslim Brotherhood to arm the Sunni in Syria. But who will be left to fight for the Sunni. Besides AQ? Moreover once Iran and Syria cement the Coalition of Shia and run their pipeline thru Iraq all the way to Club Med. They will control all of Club Meds East Where the Sunni have very little assets.

 

[JANFU]

It wont be hard for Qatar the Saud and Muslim Brotherhood to arm the Sunni in Syria. But who will be left to fight for the Sunni. Besides AQ? Moreover once Iran and Syria cement the Coalition of Shia and run their pipeline thru Iraq all the way to Club Med. They will control all of Club Meds East Where the Sunni have very little assets.

Taking ISIL our will be at least 1 year or 3.
Plenty of time to verify Syrian refugees who want to fight.
Sunni are the majority and blood vengeance, which many in the west do not understand, runs wide and deep in Arab cultures.
This conflict will runs for at a min a decade or longer.
The issue is, if another opportunity arises, have all on the same ffn page.
5 -10K well armed Rebels can turn Syria, with Russia and Iranians into a real **** show.
Does it really matter at the end of this if Syria becomes a somewhat hard Sunni state - same as Saudi? - opinion please.
And then no pipeline from Iraq-Iran to Syria
The Stans can send gas thru Azerbaijan - Turkey, cutting the Russian middle man out which I understand they are doing or in the process of.

They would receive plenty of support from Saudi, Turkey and Egypt.
Puts Iran, Iraq and Hezbollah on the sidelines.

 

[MMC]

Taking ISIL our will be at least 1 year or 3.
Plenty of time to verify Syrian refugees who want to fight.
Sunni are the majority and blood vengeance, which many in the west do not understand, runs wide and deep in Arab cultures.
This conflict will runs for at a min a decade or longer.
The issue is, if another opportunity arises, have all on the same ffn page.
5 -10K well armed Rebels can turn Syria, with Russia and Iranians into a real **** show.
Does it really matter at the end of this if Syria becomes a somewhat hard Sunni state - same as Saudi? - opinion please.
And then no pipeline from Iraq-Iran to Syria
The Stans can send gas thru Azerbaijan - Turkey, cutting the Russian middle man out which I understand they are doing or in the process of.

They would receive plenty of support from Saudi, Turkey and Egypt.
Puts Iran, Iraq and Hezbollah on the sidelines.

The Shia are the same way, and Iran and their 12vers believe whole heartedly they will bring the change and that Caliphate they believe in.

Putin and the Shia would glady do business with Turkey. But they wont allow them to interfere with what they are talking about.

 

[Demon of Light]

In addition, administration officials and Middle East experts on both sides of the debate tell us, Obama's foreign-policy team no longer doubts that Russian President Vladimir Putin intends to prop up President Bashar al-Assad and primarily target opposition groups other than the Islamic State, including those trained by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Wait. They no longer doubt that? Did they ever doubt that?

I think it is cute how anyone honestly believes there is a meaningful distinction between these groups. Russia's targets have been primarily Islamist rebel forces that have aligned with ISIS or al-Qaeda, when not attacking those groups directly. Those forces also tend to work alongside the Free Syrian Army i.e. the "moderate" rebels. At this point it is well-established that the FSA is sharing its arms with Islamist allies who then share them with ISIS or al-Nusra, presuming the soldiers getting armed don't outright take the weapons and defect to those groups. Not to mention the times when they actively collaborate with Islamist forces in campaigns against Assad. By taking out these go-betweens, Russia is able to cut off part of the supply chain for ISIS and weaken the FSA at the same time by depriving them of allies and other forms of support. In effect Russia is able to isolate both ISIS and the FSA.

The administration came to this conclusion late. Despite warnings from U.S. intelligence agencies that Putin's military buildup was intended to keep Assad in power, the White House nonetheless decided to explore cooperating with Russia on the ground. Throughout the summer and into the fall, top Russian officials -- including Putin himself in a meeting last month with Obama at the U.N. -- said they were not committed to keeping Assad in power for the long term, and would only target Islamic State fighters in their military offensive, according to U.S. officials.

These officials no longer believe Russia was telling the truth. Reuters reported this week that Putin was planning his Syria intervention for months with Iranian officials, while misleading the West

For the love of...

....how naïve are these people???

About as naive as Russia was when the U.S. insisted a no-fly zone over Libya was not merely a pretext to help topple Gadafhi? That said, the key word would appear to be "long term" as keeping Assad in power in the interim until stability is restored would not be inconsistent with Russia's actions. I expect Russia will help Assad remove ISIS and other Islamist groups so as to allow for a political settlement with the FSA and the Kurds favorable enough to Assad so as to allow him to carry out an orderly transfer of power to a successor of his choosing.

 

[humbolt]

He definitely is an open book HB. Not just to Putin.....but to the Iranians too.




Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts.....


Cruise missiles fired from warships, the latest jets pounding far-off targets: Russian President Vladimir Putin's show of strength in Syria looks aimed at proving that a resurgent Moscow can rival the West, analysts said.

But quashing the Islamic State and other extremist groups, the stated objective of Russia’s campaign, is partly a broader attempt to compete with -- and even intimidate -- the West, analysts said. "Rather than being primarily about Syria, or primarily about ISIS, this dispute is about a global principle," Matthew Rojansky, the director of the Washington-based Kennan Institute, told AFP.

"The dispute has gone beyond the level of diplomatic manoeuvering and economic pressure. It has now gotten to the point of using military assets to make a point." .....snip~

Russia seeks victory over the West in Syria campaign: analysts - Yahoo News

There's no doubt about that. Russia wants to control the eastern Med, secure their warm water port, and pressure the eastern flank of NATO. Turkey is the next target. Don't look for any change from Obama. It ain't happening. He'll fold like a card table. He doesn't like NATO. They're Europeans - you know - the white imperialists.

 

[MMC]

There's no doubt about that. Russia wants to control the eastern Med, secure their warm water port, and pressure the eastern flank of NATO. Turkey is the next target. Don't look for any change from Obama. It ain't happening. He'll fold like a card table. He doesn't like NATO. They're Europeans - you know - the white imperialists.

Mornin HB. :2wave: Yep, I think he either wants the Turks to play ball with him or he wont mind them being isolated at all.

 

[ludin]

Obama just got outplayed and out maneuvered by putin and he got slapped hard by it.
right now pulling out of Syria is the best choice.

we have found that the rebels we were training are more concerned with assad than ISIS.
the problem there is that Russia is bombing these rebels into the ground along with the help of iran.

so assad will remain in power and I see ISIS spreading huge influence there and how much assad pushes back
is beyond me.

I think Obama made a huge mistake in trying to take out Assad or remove him during his so called clean up of the ME.
not supporting the last president of Egypt was huge and a failure of his to understand middle eastern politics in general.

while you might not like how some of our allies over there operate they do so out of necessity vs emotion.

he is about as disastrous as Carter was on foreign policy.
he caves to everything in this attempt to make the US look better.

he gave away the farm on that stupid apology tour that he did before he become president and set himself up as a weak
leader.

other leaders might not have like Bush just like some didn't like Reagan but they respected him.
Obama came off weak and has shown it.

he has no choice in this situation but to pull out. otherwise we will be escalating issues with Russia by backing the people they are fighting.

 

[Samhain]

The Russians are there to carve out western Syria for Assad, and that's it. Once that's in place, I don't see them sticking around.

 

[Thoreau72]

The Russians are in Syria to defend their legitimate interests, which unlike the US, happen to include stability in that country. They have every right to defend their legitimate interests. They seek to stabilize the area that the west has UNstabilized through its efforts to 'regime change.'

 

[Erod]

No, it would not take that long.

To develop the technology, make it as reliable as oil-based technology, turn it into affordable products that are just as good as what we have, and CONVERT every building and machine in the US to this new technology?

It's going to take a lifetime.

 

[reinoe]

To develop the technology, make it as reliable as oil-based technology, turn it into affordable products that are just as good as what we have, and CONVERT every building and machine in the US to this new technology?

It's going to take a lifetime.

I'm operating on the assumption that the Luddites in the Republican party will be silenced. It would take a quarter of that time tops.

 

[Erod]

I'm operating on the assumption that the Luddites in the Republican party will be silenced. It would take a quarter of that time tops.

Meanwhile, we're not even remotely close to a solution that doesn't involve oil and coal. Prius drivers are hilarious in that regard.