Whitcoff is wrong to legitimize Russia's fraudulent referendums in Crimea & other Russia-held regions.

[Rogue Valley]

The problem with the thread title is that the US does not legitimise or deligitimise elections, except those conducted under its jurisdiction or competency. The Washingtonpost guy must be nuts. The US can, like anyother party or country disagree whether an election was free and fair or not; but to say elections in the world derive their legitimacy from the US is quite a stretch

The Crimea "referendum" held by Russian authorities soon after they staged a coup in Crimea violated both the Crimea and the Ukraine Constitutions. They also violated internatiional law and the Geneva Conventions which considers elections or referendums held in any territory under foreign military occupation as illegal and illegitimate.

Below: Armed Russian soldiers restricting access to the Crimea Parliament building on 1 March 2014. Only politicians aligned with pro-Russia Crimea politician Sergei Aksyonov were admitted to the building. Aksyonov retains control in Crimea to this day, 11 years after the photo below was taken. Aksyonov "Goblin" also has ties to the "Salem" group, a Russian organized crime outfit operating in Crimea. After the start of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Aksyonov created a private military company named Convoy. As of 2023, it was operating in Ukraine's Kherson Oblast.

 

[j brown's body]

Not really, no.

Indeed, there are paragraphs of sentences describing the corruption.

 

[Tigerace117]

Indeed, there are paragraphs of sentences describing the corruption.

Describing the local authorities running the elections as “corruption” is hilarious.

 

[Roadvirus]

The elections are already accepted by the Russian Duma.

Nobody gives a shit what the Russian Dumass accepts.

Every Western election overseer group has said the "votes" were neck-deep in fraud & intimidation from Russia. As far as the West is concerned, the bodies of "government authority" in the occupied regions are illegitimate & in some instances collaborators to Russian war crimes.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nobody gives a shit what the Russian Dumass accepts.

Every Western election overseer group has said the "votes" were neck-deep in fraud & intimidation from Russia. As far as the West is concerned, the bodies of "government authority" in the occupied regions are illegitimate & in some instances collaborators to Russian war crimes.

Always hilarious watching the West suddenly pretend to give a shit about “war crimes”.

 

[j brown's body]

Always hilarious watching the West suddenly pretend to give a shit about “war crimes”.

What does that have to do votes being knee deep in fraud?

 

[Tigerace117]

What does that have to do votes being knee deep in fraud?

Crimea has had strong secessionist sentiment for decades. The pretense that the bulk of the people there wanted to leave Ukraine because of “fraud” is laughable.

 

[j brown's body]

Crimea has had strong secessionist sentiment for decades. The pretense that the bulk of the people there wanted to leave Ukraine because of “fraud” is laughable.

"By the time of Ukraine’s 1991 independence referendum, 54 percent of Crimean voters — including 57 percent in Sevastopol — chose to remain part of an independent Ukraine. A subsequent poll by Baltic Surveys/Gallup showed 65 percent of respondents favoring Crimea’s autonomy within Ukraine, with only 23 percent preferring union with Russia."

 

[Tigerace117]

"By the time of Ukraine’s 1991 independence referendum, 54 percent of Crimean voters — including 57 percent in Sevastopol — chose to remain part of an independent Ukraine. A subsequent poll by Baltic Surveys/Gallup showed 65 percent of respondents favoring Crimea’s autonomy within Ukraine, with only 23 percent preferring union with Russia."

So yes, even in the earliest days of Ukraine, when optimism was at its peak, almost half of the people there didn’t want to be a part of the country

As I pointed out.

And the minimal resistance the Russians have faced in the decade plus since they took over only further demonstrates that fact.

 

[j brown's body]

So yes, even in the earliest days of Ukraine, when optimism was at its peak, almost half of the people there didn’t want to be a part of the country

As I pointed out.

And the minimal resistance the Russians have faced in the decade plus since they took over only further demonstrates that fact.

23% isnt half.

 

[Tigerace117]

23% isnt half.

46 percent is quite close to 50, in case you hadn’t noticed.

And by 1994....

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/31/world/separatist-winning-crimea-presidency.html

“During the second round of the 1994 Crimean presidential elections, Meshkov secured a victory with 72.9 percent of the votes and became the sole president of the republic.[8][9]

Yuri Meshkov's primary political agenda was to establish much closer ties with the Russian Federation, potentially leading to the reunification of Crimea with Russia. Meshkov attempted to initiate a number of measures to prepare Crimea for future integration with Russia; though he was able to align Crimea's time zone with that of Russia he was unable to fully implement his platform nor obtain the support of Russian president Boris Yeltsin for Crimean accession to the Russian Federation.[10]

In response to his efforts, in 1995 the Ukrainian parliament scrapped the Crimean Constitution, abolished the post of president on March 17 and moved to depose and exile Meshkov from the country.[11][12] Ukrainian special forces entered Meshkov's residence, disarmed his bodyguards and put him on a plane to Moscow.[13]”

Yuriy Meshkov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gee, now that’s awkward for your narrative.

 

[Rogue Valley]

23% isnt half.

23% isn't even half of half.

 

[j brown's body]

46 percent is quite close to 50, in case you hadn’t noticed.

And by 1994....

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/01/31/world/separatist-winning-crimea-presidency.html

“During the second round of the 1994 Crimean presidential elections, Meshkov secured a victory with 72.9 percent of the votes and became the sole president of the republic.[8][9]

Yuri Meshkov's primary political agenda was to establish much closer ties with the Russian Federation, potentially leading to the reunification of Crimea with Russia. Meshkov attempted to initiate a number of measures to prepare Crimea for future integration with Russia; though he was able to align Crimea's time zone with that of Russia he was unable to fully implement his platform nor obtain the support of Russian president Boris Yeltsin for Crimean accession to the Russian Federation.[10]

In response to his efforts, in 1995 the Ukrainian parliament scrapped the Crimean Constitution, abolished the post of president on March 17 and moved to depose and exile Meshkov from the country.[11][12] Ukrainian special forces entered Meshkov's residence, disarmed his bodyguards and put him on a plane to Moscow.[13]”

Yuriy Meshkov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gee, now that’s awkward for your narrative.

"As a Western diplomat in Crimea for the elections put it, "it won't be that Russia won Crimea but that Ukraine lost it through economic ineptitude."

Mr. Meshkov, 48, believes that he can avoid hostilities and has toned down his oratory on unification with Russia. "No one is talking about separating from Ukraine," he now says.

Crimea's separatist movement poses a difficult diplomatic problem for Russia, which has just signed an agreement with the United States guaranteeing Ukraine's current borders to coax Ukraine to relinquish its nuclear arsenal."

Interesting. I did not know Russia was now violating an earlier agreement.

 

[Tigerace117]

"As a Western diplomat in Crimea for the elections put it, "it won't be that Russia won Crimea but that Ukraine lost it through economic ineptitude."

Mr. Meshkov, 48, believes that he can avoid hostilities and has toned down his oratory on unification with Russia. "No one is talking about separating from Ukraine," he now says.

Crimea's separatist movement poses a difficult diplomatic problem for Russia, which has just signed an agreement with the United States guaranteeing Ukraine's current borders to coax Ukraine to relinquish its nuclear arsenal."

Interesting. I did not know Russia was now violating an earlier agreement.

What “diplomatic agreement”? The Ukrainians used armed force to overturn the results of an election in which Meshkov won over seventy percent of the vote, despite his efforts to avoid sparking another war.

As usual, the West ignored the will of the people they supposedly cared oh so deeply about because the people voted in a way they didn’t like.

 

[j brown's body]

What “diplomatic agreement”?

an agreement with the United States guaranteeing Ukraine's current borders to coax Ukraine to relinquish its nuclear arsenal.

 

[Tigerace117]

an agreement with the United States guaranteeing Ukraine's current borders to coax Ukraine to relinquish its nuclear arsenal.

Oh really? You didn’t know about the Budapest Memorandum?

Sounds like Ukraine shouldn’t have used armed force to try and thwart the will of the people.

 

[j brown's body]

Oh really? You didn’t know about the Budapest Memorandum?

Sounds like Ukraine shouldn’t have used armed force to try and thwart the will of the people.

You can only speculate that they voted for him out of a desire to return to Russia. There were other issues.

Either way, your source shows us that Zelensky is right. Russia can't be trusted to keep its agreements.

 

[Tigerace117]

You can only speculate that they voted for him out of a desire to return to Russia. There were other issues.

Either way, your source shows us that Zelensky is right. Russia can't be trusted to keep its agreements.

The dude made no secret of his goal to bring Crimea back into Russia. And gee, given your other article talking about Ukraine supposedly “saving” Crimea, it clearly couldn’t have been economic issues he won on, right?

Either way, the people of Crimea have long sought to leave Ukraine, and Zelensky is just the latest in a long line of Ukrainian leaders seeking to thwart their democratic aspirations, with the West cheering him on.

 

[j brown's body]

The dude made no secret of his goal to bring Crimea back into Russia. And gee, given your other article talking about Ukraine supposedly “saving” Crimea, it clearly couldn’t have been economic issues he won on, right?

Either way, the people of Crimea have long sought to leave Ukraine, and Zelensky is just the latest in a long line of Ukrainian leaders seeking to thwart their democratic aspirations, with the West cheering him on.

Your source quotes him saying he did not want to do that.

 

[Tigerace117]

Your source quotes him saying he did not want to do that.

“Yuri Meshkov's primary political agenda was to establish much closer ties with the Russian Federation, potentially leading to the reunification of Crimea with Russia. Meshkov attempted to initiate a number of measures to prepare Crimea for future integration with Russia; though he was able to align Crimea's time zone with that of Russia he was unable to fully implement his platform nor obtain the support of Russian president Boris Yeltsin for Crimean accession to the Russian Federation.[10]”

From source.

 

[dandolo2k]

...in 1954, Communist Party leader Nikita Khrushchev convinced the Supreme Soviet — which had the formal authority to ratify a transfer of territory —

the whole post is total garbage . The “supreme Soviet” had Zero authority to trade Russian lands, the whole “transfer” was totally unconstitutional and illegal . this was not the first grave violation of the Soviet Constitution by bolshevkcks government ,
any territorial changes must had been done only after prolonged and serious public discussion and REFERENDUM. NO referendum was held . This “transfer “ from the legal point of view is VOID.

 

[trouble13]

...in 1954, Communist Party leader Nikita Khrushchev convinced the Supreme Soviet — which had the formal authority to ratify a transfer of territory — to make Crimea part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. ...Crimea voted to join Ukraine after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, though it was approved by a narrow majority (54 percent) compared with other areas of Ukraine

...On March 16 (20014) a referendum was held on whether Crimea should become part of Russia. But it’s ludicrous to say the results were valid. The referendum took place only nine days after it was announced, with television broadcasts by Ukrainian channels blocked. Moreover, there was no option to vote “no” and return to the preinvasion status quo. Instead, the two options were to join Russia — what the ballot called “reunification” — or become a quasi-independent state beholden to Russia. A McClatchy news report at the time reported serious irregularities. Tatars and the local Ukrainian community announced a boycott of the vote, but witnesses described a convoy of Russian minibuses and cars crossing the border and heading to polling stations in Tatar areas to cast ballots. Putin claimed 82 percent turnout — for a 96 percent “yes” vote — but McClatchy said data sent by local officials to the Russian FSB intelligence agency showed that only 34.2 percent of the Crimean population took part.

The referendum also did not comply with existing laws. The Ukrainian constitution, in Article 73, said that “alterations to the territory of Ukraine shall be resolved exclusively by the All-Ukrainian referendum,” described in Article 72 as a national referendum called either by the parliament or the president, or as a popular initiative with 3 million signatures from at least two-thirds of administrative districts known as oblasts. The Crimea referendum, set up by local authorities, met none of those conditions. Under the Ukrainian constitution, Crimea, as an autonomous republic, had specially designated powers. But Article 134 states: “The Autonomous Republic of Crimea shall be an integral constituent part of Ukraine and shall resolve issues relegated to its authority within the frame of its reference, determined by the Constitution of Ukraine.”"

"Gifted" Link

This helps explain why Ukraine is unwilling to hold elections while Russia is occupying Ukrainian land.

What would you do to resolve the issue if you were the president?

 

[dandolo2k]

...in 1954, Communist Party leader Nikita Khrushchev convinced the Supreme Soviet — which had the formal authority to ratify a transfer of territory — to make Crimea part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. ...Crimea voted to join Ukraine after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991,

Crimea never voted to “join Ukraine“ this is a blatant lie . There was no such question in any fraudulent ”referendum of independence” held in 1991,

 

[Rogue Valley]

Crimea never voted to “join Ukraine“ this is a blatant lie . There was no such question in any fraudulent ”referendum of independence” held in 1991,

1991 Ukrainian independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1 December 1991
Do you support the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine?

Results
Choice Votes % Yes 28,804,071 92.26% No 2,417,554 7.74% Valid votes 31,221,625 97.90% Invalid or blank votes 670,117 2.10% Total votes 31,891,742 100.00% Registered voters/turnout 37,885,555 84.18%

The Crimea vote was 54% 'Yes' in favor of leaving the Soviet Union and forming an independent Ukraine.

 

[Tigerace117]

1991 Ukrainian independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1 December 1991
Do you support the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine?

Results
Choice Votes % Yes 28,804,071 92.26% No 2,417,554 7.74% Valid votes 31,221,625 97.90% Invalid or blank votes 670,117 2.10% Total votes 31,891,742 100.00% Registered voters/turnout 37,885,555 84.18%

The Crimea vote was 54% 'Yes' in favor of leaving the Soviet Union and forming an independent Ukraine.

And within five years over seventy percent of Crimea voted for a guy whose primary goal was leaving Ukraine and integrating into Russia.