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Which tax system is most 'fair'

Which tax system is most 'fair'?

  • Progressive Tax

    Votes: 28 46.7%
  • Regressive Tax

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    Votes: 14 23.3%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    Votes: 4 6.7%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 23.3%

  • Total voters
    60

TurtleDude

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I think it is so funny how people think a transaction tax is somehow voluntary.

So, what if, instead of taxing income they taxed transactions only. All transactions. Including those that go on between and employer and employees. Like the transaction that occurs when an employee gets paid for work services rendered.

Would that make ya'll feel better about the income tax? If it was a tax levied on employers for the voluntary transaction they engage in when they pay employees?
I have consistently noted why I oppose progressive tax rates

those in a lower bracket should not be able to vote up-by sheer numbers-the rates of those in higher brackets

everyone should lose the same percentage of each additional dollar they make with a tax increase.
 

Agent Ferris

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I don't view property rights as absolute, but rather I view limited property rights as a mechanism to create incentives for a nation's people to become productive. In other words, property rights exist not to protect the rights of the individual, but rather to serve society. The mistake many people make is to view them as serving the individual, and then start to mistakenly believe that they are somehow absolute. No rights are absolute. They all only exist as long as they serve the purpose of increasing the good in a free society.

Since I don't view taxation as theft, I am free to recommend that tax system which best serves a nation. I don't really care about fairness, since there are so many ways to look at such a notion. The only thing that really matters is that tax system which maximizes both prosperity and spread of the nation's wealth. Sometimes these are in conflict and it is up to society to determine the correct balance. However, just the maximization of prosperity itself is best served by a progressive tax system.

Any time society attempts a system of property rights and combines it with any tax system that gives rise to a pronounced concentration of a nation's wealth in the hands of a relatively few, this leads to economic malaise, corruption and poverty for the vast majority of the population. I like my society set up with a set of fairly strong and extensive property rights to foster a free market system, combined with wise regulation of those markets, and finally combined with a progressive tax system to offset the tendency of wealth to accumulate at the top.

This kind of system is a whole package, and it is "Fair" because it works. If a flat tax was what "worked", I would be for that (in emerging economies, there is evidence that a flat tax is best). Whatever works.
So in other words you support collective tyranny and mob rule. So long as the gang of men is large enough you will justify outright theft.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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I think it is so funny how people think a transaction tax is somehow voluntary.

So, what if, instead of taxing income they taxed transactions only. All transactions. Including those that go on between and employer and employees. Like the transaction that occurs when an employee gets paid for work services rendered.

Would that make ya'll feel better about the income tax? If it was a tax levied on employers for the voluntary transaction they engage in when they pay employees?
The income tax would be better implemented if most credits and exemptions were removed and if FICA/Medicare tax were included with your regular tax rates.

The system needs to be simplified and it's complexity only benefits (what I think are) fraudulent tax prep companies.
 

Dezaad

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I have consistently noted why I oppose progressive tax rates

those in a lower bracket should not be able to vote up-by sheer numbers-the rates of those in higher brackets

everyone should lose the same percentage of each additional dollar they make with a tax increase.
Which doesn't address the issue that the income tax could be made into a voluntary tax simply by making it a tax on the employer on the transaction they perform when they pay someone for work.
 

TurtleDude

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Which doesn't address the issue that the income tax could be made into a voluntary tax simply by making it a tax on the employer on the transaction they perform when they pay someone for work.

that would eliminate progressive tax rates-that would be a flat rate as sales taxes are.

the tax on a million dollar transaction is say 7% in Ohio just as a 10 dollar one

works for me
 

Dezaad

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Which doesn't address the issue that the income tax could be made into a voluntary tax simply by making it a tax on the employer on the transaction they perform when they pay someone for work.
We could even make it more fun and do some crazy things, since this tax is voluntary. Like, tax lower wage jobs at a higher tax rate to give employers an incentive to pay higher wages. It could be structured to make it desirable for employers to pay better. No need for minimum wage anymore!! This is a tax libertarians should love!! I can also see some ways to structure it so that it is progressive and accomplishes additional necessary redistribution of wealth.

All on a voluntary basis!!
 

Dezaad

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that would eliminate progressive tax rates-that would be a flat rate as sales taxes are.

the tax on a million dollar transaction is say 7% in Ohio just as a 10 dollar one

works for me
Oh, no no no :) Since it is voluntary whether it's progressive or not, it gets to be progressive :)
 

TurtleDude

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We could even make it more fun and do some crazy things, since this tax is voluntary. Like, tax lower wage jobs at a higher tax rate to give employers an incentive to pay higher wages. It could be structured to make it desirable for employers to pay better. No need for minimum wage anymore!! This is a tax libertarians should love!! I can also see some ways to structure it so that it is progressive and accomplishes additional necessary redistribution of wealth.

All on a voluntary basis!!
we ought to have a real voluntary tax system

it would kill of those who live off the taxes of others rather quickly

that's what I love about a consumption tax-if you are frugal and want to increase your wealth, you don't buy a new car every year or the newest and greatest droid phone the minute it comes out

the current tax system-the pandering progressive tax and the death confiscation tax-both punish thrift and frugality
 

obvious Child

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a consumption tax has dozens of benefits for us who dont like an intrusive government
Unless you're the one remitting the taxes. To actually produce an accurate fair consumption tax, we'd need to expand the IRS at least three fold to run the necessary inventory audits to ensure compliance. We'd also need to effectively turn the credit card companies into Big Brother entities to ensure credit sales are being properly accounted for as well. When business realizes they are literally going to have a full time government auditor in their office, they will rebel against a consumption tax.
 

Dezaad

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we ought to have a real voluntary tax system

it would kill of those who live off the taxes of others rather quickly

that's what I love about a consumption tax-if you are frugal and want to increase your wealth, you don't buy a new car every year or the newest and greatest droid phone the minute it comes out

the current tax system-the pandering progressive tax and the death confiscation tax-both punish thrift and frugality
The notion of a tax on employers for labor transactions is entirely a voluntary tax. period. People don't have to engage in business if they don't want to pay it.
 

Dezaad

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So in other words you support collective tyranny and mob rule. So long as the gang of men is large enough you will justify outright theft.
No, I support an intelligent social and economic system that maximises both prosperity and distribution of economic power.
 

TurtleDude

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Unless you're the one remitting the taxes. To actually produce an accurate fair consumption tax, we'd need to expand the IRS at least three fold to run the necessary inventory audits to ensure compliance. We'd also need to effectively turn the credit card companies into Big Brother entities to ensure credit sales are being properly accounted for as well. When business realizes they are literally going to have a full time government auditor in their office, they will rebel against a consumption tax.
uh just about every person charged with collecting federal taxes now on consumption does it at the state level

try again-my wife ran a business and she collected sales taxes and we didn't have an auditor in our office. our cash register rang up the taxes which were remitted to the state monthly or weekly, I cannot recall at this point

I sure like the idea of congress not being able to pander to the envious and the unproductive
 

TurtleDude

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No, I support an intelligent social and economic system that maximises both prosperity and distribution of economic power.
that's a platitude that serves no useful purpose in this discussion

I favor laws that make children happier, women prettier and beer better tasting myself
 

Agent Ferris

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No, I support an intelligent social and economic system that maximises both prosperity and distribution of economic power.
And by this you mean theft from the individual through the coercive force of the state. Me and me gang like your car, trouble is we don't have cars heck we don't even have bikes, and because we don't have bikes we're having trouble getting to work, so we're going to steal your car and sell it so we can all have bikes to get to work, but don't worry we'll give you a bike too, and tell you what before we steal your car we'll even put it to a vote and let you vote as well, all fair right? It will maximize prosperity through theft and re-distribution.
 
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cpwill

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Unless you're the one remitting the taxes. To actually produce an accurate fair consumption tax, we'd need to expand the IRS at least three fold to run the necessary inventory audits to ensure compliance. We'd also need to effectively turn the credit card companies into Big Brother entities to ensure credit sales are being properly accounted for as well. When business realizes they are literally going to have a full time government auditor in their office, they will rebel against a consumption tax.
you have any evidence that suggests that the states who use sales taxes have to maintain a significantly larger IRS in order to collect it than those who tack on additional income taxes?

switching to a consumption tax at the retail level would reduce the number of collection points, and make noncompliance more difficult. so i'm kind of left scratching my head at your claim here.
 

cpwill

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No, I support an intelligent social and economic system that maximises both prosperity and distribution of economic power.
the two are often mutually exclusive. and, just to be sure, you believe that our rights are given to us by our government, not the other way 'round?
 

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that's a platitude that serves no useful purpose in this discussion

I favor laws that make children happier, women prettier and beer better tasting myself

Well, luckily, you're not the majority.
 

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the rich get more> no they don't but even if your false claim is correct, they certainly pay far more t han they get. 47% of america pays nothing for what actually pays for the federal government-income taxes. Yet that 47% gets at least 47% of the benefits and if you count prison as a "benefit" of those in it (it certainly is an expenditure upon those in prison-to the tune of up to 65K a year) that they don't pay for via the FIT.

So the rich are clearly paying far far more than they use to make up for all those who don't pay near as much as they use.
This is of course total BS. Your numbers obviously use income tax data which does not account for money hidden in various foundations that are only available to the very wealthy and of course off-shore accounts.
Also, note that working stiff is pay payroll taxes where the rich are paying none.

Oh yeah, there is only a 15% tax on capital gains.
 

Dezaad

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the two are often mutually exclusive. and, just to be sure, you believe that our rights are given to us by our government, not the other way 'round?
Property rights are given by society through the democratically elected representative government. Other rights are simply recognized by the government.

For a clear example of property rights invented by society and granted through the government: Intellectual Property Rights.
 

TurtleDude

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you have any evidence that suggests that the states who use sales taxes have to maintain a significantly larger IRS in order to collect it than those who tack on additional income taxes?

switching to a consumption tax at the retail level would reduce the number of collection points, and make noncompliance more difficult. so i'm kind of left scratching my head at your claim here.
it apparently was a made up claim in an attempt to attack a system that doesn't appeal to class warfare
 

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I'm not saying that is my view on things but I think it begs the question because many people state that, the middle class is getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer.

If that is true, why hasn't the progressive tax system ended that?
I think the answer lies in changing the behavior of those that are middle class and poor.
Twisting and turning numbers only does so much.
But a flat tax won't end it either. If you ask me, the reason why the middle class are getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer is for a multitude of reasons.

One, if you ask me, is how necessary the use of living off of a debt is in this nation. We require debt to get a college education or professional training and we require debt to get shelter. On one hand, the flow of credit in the U.S. allows those who are poor a way to lift themselves out of their poverty but, on the other hand, free market forces causes the prices to rise higher because of that credit. Therefore, nothing is really gained. Except the amount interest people have to pay back to their creditors.

What is the ultimate solution to this? I don't know, and even if I did I doubt it would be something the majority of Americans would attempt to implement anyways.

Another reason is the sheer number of tax exemptions available to people. While conservative pundits like to blame Democrats for giving the poor for all these exemptions, Republicans are also to blame for giving exemptions to their poor supporters, most poor social conservatives who get tax breaks for children.

But why should people with children get more tax exemptions when they use more tax-provided government services, such as public education for their children? Maybe we should increase taxes on couples with children since they consume more government services than singles without children.

But that would be against the "family values" of social conservatives who love kids so much they despise birth control, and would call any Republican who supported it a RINO.

So the reason why the middle class is suffering and the reason why the poor stay poor can't be reduced to the system of taxes we use. There are many reasons, many more than I know of to list.
 

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uh just about every person charged with collecting federal taxes now on consumption does it at the state level
And many of them cheat right now with relatively low rates. When you jack up the sale tax to the often cited range of 15% to 23% sales will drop. To incentivize people to buy, they will switch to a cash basis and not collect the tax.

try again-my wife ran a business and she collected sales taxes and we didn't have an auditor in our office. our cash register rang up the taxes which were remitted to the state monthly or weekly, I cannot recall at this point
There is where you failed. You were not deliberately trying to cheat. Tax avoidance sales will entirely bypass the register. Citing the cash register is a sign you don't get how they are going to cheat. Chinatowns across the US are notorious for cash basis under the table transactions. Often the IRS will first watch the suspected business, make estimates on sales per entry and then confront them before sending in auditors. Auditors are expensive. Easier to intimidate them into admitting and paying. A full sales tax would incentivize every firm to act like a Chinatown firm. To enforce compliance, it's going to take a suped-up IRS.

I sure like the idea of congress not being able to pander to the envious and the unproductive
So those who pay taxes to fund Medicare and Social Security are unproductive?
 
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