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Which of these gun measures do you support?

Which of these gun measures do you support?


  • Total voters
    61
Just registration, so that if a crime were committed they could find out who done it and whether or not they are mentally ill or otherwise.

How. Explain exactly how registration will work to do this showing each critical step for it to function.

A buys gun and is registered then commits a crime. Take it from there.
 
How. Explain exactly how registration will work to do this showing each critical step for it to function.

It really wouldn't be that difficult to connect a specific gun to whom has wielded it via databases...
 
It really wouldn't be that difficult to connect a specific gun to whom has wielded it via databases...

Then show me you have thought it out by demonstrating the critical steps. Vague answers are of no help here.

OK I just realised you have demonstrated you have a belief and do not know how it would work.

1 The gun has to be registered.
2 The gun must be left at the scene of the crime or found and can be tied to the crime.
3 The gun must have the users fingerprints or DNA on it.
4 The user and owner must be the same person.

What do you think the chances are that all four of these happen.

How many criminals do you know who would REGISTER and use a registered firearm AND LEAVE IT AT THE CRIME SCENE with their finger prints and DNA on it?

Do you still think registration is a good idea?

Would the results of the Canadian handgun registry help. It was admitted in parliament that not one crime had been solved in 64 years of operation. Nobody asked what that had cost. I'm going to ask do you think the money would be better invested in actually solving crime and not chasing guns?
 
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Just registration, so that if a crime were committed they could find out who done it and whether or not they are mentally ill or otherwise.

you do know that registration cannot be imposed on people who cannot legally own firearms due to US V HAYNES and the Fifth amendment?

how many firearms used in premeditated crimes can be traced to the criminals? almost none. There is no evidence registration has any use other than to harass those who actually register their firearms
 
Then show me you have thought it out by demonstrating the critical steps. Vague answers are of no help here.

OK I just realised you have demonstrated you have a belief and do not know how it would work.

1 The gun has to be registered.
2 The gun must be left at the scene of the crime or found and can be tied to the crime.
3 The gun must have the users fingerprints or DNA on it.
4 The user and owner must be the same person.

What do you think the chances are that all four of these happen.

How many criminals do you know who would REGISTER and use a registered firearm AND LEAVE IT AT THE CRIME SCENE with their finger prints and DNA on it?

Do you still think registration is a good idea?

Would the results of the Canadian handgun registry help. It was admitted in parliament that not one crime had been solved in 64 years of operation. Nobody asked what that had cost. I'm going to ask do you think the money would be better invested in actually solving crime and not chasing guns?

OK then, what would you propose in lieu of firearm registration?
 
That would amount to prying ones guns out of ones cold hands. Take a test to own a gun? "They're destroying the constitution, making us slaves!"

My friend, expect no reason with an American and his guns

Irony is, I fully support their 2nd amendment rights. Trying to impose gun control in the US now would be like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. All I said was you should have to show that you know how guns should be safely stored.
Ever notice that the loudest are always the least articulate? The semi-literate are the loudest and most obnoxious.
 
OK then, what would you propose in lieu of firearm registration?

I'm totally puzzled by your question. Are you assuming there is some form of gun control that can work?

If so if you describe the causal mechanism I can give you an answer. It is obvious to any intervention that the cause must be addressed if there is any hope of achieving results.

It is pointless and quite foolish to attempt to control anything if the cause is not addressed. A viral disease is not controlled or cured with anti-bionics,
 
Irony is, I fully support their 2nd amendment rights. Trying to impose gun control in the US now would be like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. All I said was you should have to show that you know how guns should be safely stored.
Ever notice that the loudest are always the least articulate? The semi-literate are the loudest and most obnoxious.

Well have you explained with credible evidence what you hope to achieve by your tests and requirements. Please post a link to it and we can then see the validity of your demands and claims. Or you can repeat them. If you have not have the grace to say so and now post it.
 
Irony is, I fully support their 2nd amendment rights. Trying to impose gun control in the US now would be like trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. All I said was you should have to show that you know how guns should be safely stored.
Ever notice that the loudest are always the least articulate? The semi-literate are the loudest and most obnoxious.

Please show how your impositions will not violate the 2A.
 
Are you serious?

Am I serious about what?

Are you willing to explain how some form of gun control works with credible evidence. It should be easy for you.
 
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OK then, what would you propose in lieu of firearm registration?

Nothing: every possible nasty thing one can do with a firearm is already subject to severe federal and state penalties.

Registration of firearms at the federal level is unconstitutional, unenforceable given there are over 400 million firearms that have already in private hands, and a waste of time for crime control. Registration is desired by those who wish to impose additional costs on firearms owners or to confiscate said weapons.
 
Are you serious?

its a great question since to us gun control means schemes that prevent lawful gun owners from doing some activity that they have been able to do for years. all those proposed laws do is harass lawful gun owners. as I have noted, every substantive type of harm one can do with a firearm is already illegal. criminals cannot own any firearms. so all that is being suggested are schemes that infringe on the rights of the lawful
 
OK then, what would you propose in lieu of firearm registration?

I listened to a very interesting NPR story the other day dealing with gun crime in Richmond California. Seems gun control was not working. They determined that 70% of all the gun crime there was caused by 17 individuals. They approached these individuals and offered them education, jobs and a stipend (if they knew it was these 17 thugs I am not sure why they did not arrest them...) Anyway, since the vast majority of those laws you would like to see will not affect the vast majority of thugs you wish to stop, how about starting with something similar to what they do in Richmond?
 
I'm totally puzzled by your question. Are you assuming there is some form of gun control that can work?

If so if you describe the causal mechanism I can give you an answer. It is obvious to any intervention that the cause must be addressed if there is any hope of achieving results.

It is pointless and quite foolish to attempt to control anything if the cause is not addressed. A viral disease is not controlled or cured with (sic)antibiotics.

That was a genuine offer to gun control to come to the negotiating table and make its case so we can move forward. That has to be some guiding principle to creating good legislation and if there is anything better it must be discussed as well. One has to start somewhere and obviously one does not set out to create bad legislation. This is an effort to create good legislation from empirical data.

It is quite obvious that a causal relationship is needed. If I said cheese causes people to kill there would be no argument it was false and controlling cheese simply stupid.

Gun control claims guns cause people to commit crimes and therefore controlling guns will reduce crime. All I am asking for is explain how gun cause crime in order to produce the most effective legislation.

Is there anybody who can fault that logic or propose a better way of determining the best approach to legislation? Surely gun control advocates should leap at the chance to seriously discuss the best way forward that we can all agree on. I am willing to bet every gun owner I know will support this type of legislation in order to reduce crime or increase public safety with certainty.
 
That was a genuine offer to gun control to come to the negotiating table and make its case so we can move forward. That has to be some guiding principle to creating good legislation and if there is anything better it must be discussed as well. One has to start somewhere and obviously one does not set out to create bad legislation. This is an effort to create good legislation from empirical data.

It is quite obvious that a causal relationship is needed. If I said cheese causes people to kill there would be no argument it was false and controlling cheese simply stupid.

Gun control claims guns cause people to commit crimes and therefore controlling guns will reduce crime. All I am asking for is explain how gun cause crime in order to produce the most effective legislation.

Is there anybody who can fault that logic or propose a better way of determining the best approach to legislation? Surely gun control advocates should leap at the chance to seriously discuss the best way forward that we can all agree on. I am willing to bet every gun owner I know will support this type of legislation in order to reduce crime or increase public safety with certainty.

YES - I can fault your logic and the resulting standard you want to make the defacto rule here.

And YES - every gun owner would indeed support your proposal because it is fundamentally biased unfairly in favor of gun owners and establishes a standard that is fundamentally seriously flawed and outright dishonest.

While it is virtually impossible to say for sure if guns cause crime, it is easy to say that guns make it easier for bad things to happen - and that includes crime and suicide. A gun simply affords one convenience, speed, distance and ease of acquiring and using far more than many other arms would be in similar situations. To deny that is not even rational in the real world we live in. Proof can be found in the bomber of guns used in crimes compared to the number of any other weapon used in that same crime. Guns are the weapon of choice far more than any other weapon.

My reason for supporting things like registrations and universal background checks and limitations on magazine size IS NOT BASED ON ANY ABILITY TO REDUCE CRIME. That issue is so fraught with far too many other variables for anyone to agree on its impact or effects. If we passed all those things tomorrow and crime dropped 20% across the nation, we would simply hear the usual correlation is not causation cliches and proof demanded to show that it was the gun legislation that caused it to the the exclusion of everything else.

And we all know such a challenge is fundamentally flawed from the start because our society is a complicated one and no researcher can isolate one variable from all the others - even if they could supposedly identify all the others that may play a role in reducing crime - to demonstrate that yes, it was this particular effort that reduced crime and no other variable played a role.

My desire for gun regulation is based on one simple desire: I believe the American people should be able to have the society they want to live in providing doing so retains the right of decent people to exercise their Second Amendment rights.

No such phony standard as IT WILL REDUCE CRIME needs to be employed as it is fundamentally flawed as I have explained.

If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where one cannot have automatic weapons - that is our right as a people.
If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where one must pass a background check to buy any firearm from any person - that is our right as a people.
If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where there is a reasonable limit on the size of gun magazines - that is our right as a people.

All those things are more than constitutional providing the right to keep and bear arms can be exercised and enjoyed by the American people.
 
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YES - I can fault your logic and the resulting standard you want to make the defacto rule here.

While it is virtually impossible to say for sure if guns cause crime, it is easy to say that guns make it easier for bad things to happen - and that includes crime and suicide. A gun simply affords one convenience, speed, distance and ease of acquiring and using far more than many other arms would be in similar situations. To deny that is not even rational in the real world we live in. Proof can be found in the bomber of guns used in crimes compared to the number of any other weapon used in that same crime. Guns are the weapon of choice far more than any other weapon.

My reason for supporting things like registrations and universal background checks and limitations on magazine size IS NOT BASED ON ANY ABILITY TO REDUCE CRIME. That issue is so fraught with far too many other variables for anyone to agree on its impact or effects. If we passed all those things tomorrow and crime dropped 20% across the nation, we would simply here the usual correlation is not causation cliches and proof demanded to show that it was the gun legislation that caused it to the the exclusion of everything else.

And we all know such a challenge is fundamentally flawed from the start because our society is a complicated one and no researcher can isolate one variable from all the others - even if they could supposedly identify all the others that may play a role in reducing crime - to demonstrate that yes, it was this particular effort that reduced crime and no other variable played a role.

My desire for gun regulation is based on one simple desire: I believe the American people should be able to have the society they want to live in providing doing so retains the right of decent people to exercise their Second Amendment rights.

No such phony standard as IT WILL REDUCE CRIME needs to be employed as it is fundamentally flawed as I have explained.

If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where one cannot have automatic weapons - that is our right as a people.
If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where one must pass a background check to buy any firearm from any person - that is our right as a people.
If I and the majority of others want to live in a society where there is a reasonable limit on the size of gun magazines - that is our right as a people.

All those things are more than constitutional providing the right to keep and bear arms can be exercised and enjoyed by the American people.

Lot's of things make it easier for crime and other bad things to happen. That is the price of being a tool oriented species. Sometimes we make tools to that cause lethal issues for other members of our species. Do you have a problem with that?

Or do you have a problem with people opposing regulation of something, that you ADMIT you cannot be known, causes crime?
 
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Lot's of things make it easier for crime and other bad things to happen. That is the price of being a tool oriented species. Sometimes we make tools to that cause lethal issues for other members of our species. Do you have a problem with that?

Yes I do. And I have stated my reasons in the post above making it clear that ALL TOOLS are not equal nor are they used EQUALLY nor do they have EQAUAL IMPACT. so to pretend that they are and are simply TOOLS is the worst sort of fallacy.
 
Yes I do. And I have stated my reasons in the post above making it clear that ALL TOOLS are not equal nor are they used EQUALLY nor do they have EQAUAL IMPACT. so to pretend that they are and are simply TOOLS is the worst sort of fallacy.

They are SIMPLY TOOLS. You just don't like what the tool does. That is fine. I'm not too fond of the results when the tool is used by someone bad. But like any other tool...it doesn't have a mind of its own.

Do you believe guns have a mind of their own?

edit:

Tool | Definition of Tool by Merriam-Webster


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool

fbbc4879e2d722026d1a88d2c7cf02d5.jpg


Tool - definition of tool by The Free Dictionary

tool: definition of tool in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

Yea. It seems by definition a firearm/gun is a tool.
 
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They are SIMPLY TOOLS. You just don't like what the tool does. That is fine. I'm not too fond of the results when the tool is used by someone bad. But like any other tool...it doesn't have a mind of its own.

Do you believe guns have a mind of their own?

What part about the post of mine that you pretended to be replying to seems to confuse and befuddle you?

I never said guns had a mind of their own and for you to offer than silly thought is simply employing a fallacious straw man of your own creation. Why would you do that when my post made it very clear that calling a gun a tool is simply not the point at all since all tools are not used equally nor do they have equal impact.

What about that seems to so confuse you?
 
What part about the post of mine that you pretended to be replying to seems to confuse and befuddle you?

I never said guns had a mind of their own and for you to offer than silly thought is simply employing a fallacious straw man of your own creation. Why would you do that when my post made it very clear that calling a gun a tool is simply not the point at all since all tools are not used equally nor do they have equal impact.

What about that seems to so confuse you?

I'm not going to pretend you are stupid and are completely unaware of where this is going. By definition a firearm is SIMPLY A TOOL. See my above edit.

Just because you don't like what something does, the politics around it, or the direction an argument is taking, doesn't mean you can change the accepted definition of a word in the English language. Period.

Unless you are on some sort of committee to change definitions of words? I didn't know such a thing existed. Are you on a committee to change definitions of words for the entire English using world? Ah. I don't think it matters.

What is your definition of tool? (Probably won't answer that one, or you will do it cryptically and avoid recognizing that a firearm/gun is a tool).

Oh well. Since we know that a firearm is a tool, by definition, and we know that that is 100% a fact., I think we know a little more about this discussion.
 
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