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Wherever Religious Belief is Waning the Society Is In Decline Also

Being a Christian, it's hard not to be biased. It IS an interesting correlation the OP has given, but one I'm incapable of researching given other obligations I've got going on at the moment. Good luck to all.

The OP didn't provide any correlation. He produced zero data. He just said "I read it in a book".

I actually did provide data:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...ng-society-decline-also-5.html#post1061382475

I took the top 15 most religious, and top 15 least religious countries, and showed that there is a NEGATIVE correlation between religious levels and prosperity.

Hell, the top 50 most religious countries in the world are absolute **** holes.
 
What other institutions create a sense of community like religion does? Having a strong religion does not necessarily mean a country will be strong and stable, but I can't think of any secular institution that is so good at organizing communities and creating a sense of fellowship.

One might wonder what the Middle East would look like without Islam. Because of its history of tribalism, the Middle East would likely be even more fractured and contentious than it is today.

With what is our society replacing religion?

Spirituality and a more nuanced understanding of faith..

Less dogma..
 
The OP didn't provide any correlation. He produced zero data. He just said "I read it in a book".

I actually did provide data:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...ng-society-decline-also-5.html#post1061382475

I took the top 15 most religious, and top 15 least religious countries, and showed that there is a NEGATIVE correlation between religious levels and prosperity.

Hell, the top 50 most religious countries in the world are absolute **** holes.

RA, he presented it. Just because I didn't read your post, doesn't mean a) I don't like you b) you should be offended or c) I'm not smart. Prosperity is not the only measure of societal bliss. That is an over-simplification. I live a perfectly happy life as a Christian, and I'm not all that bad off. The best part is that I have some neat friends, a clear conscience and hope.
 
RA, he presented it. Just because I didn't read your post, doesn't mean a) I don't like you b) you should be offended or c) I'm not smart. Prosperity is not the only measure of societal bliss. That is an over-simplification. I live a perfectly happy life as a Christian, and I'm not all that bad off. The best part is that I have some neat friends, a clear conscience and hope.

Wtf? When did I say anything about you liking me, that I'm offended, or that you're not smart? Stay on topic.

Of course it's not, but those top 50 most religious countries fail in every aspect. I'm not saying that individuals being religious is bad in any way. I'm countering the OP's ridiculous assertion that religion is the only glue holding society together, and that the more irreligious we become, the more our society will plummet into chaos. He went out of his way to try to make the ridiculous claim that people who don't believe in god tend to be of low education, low morality, and as a whole are destroying society.

That's a mighty big claim that was backed up by "Here's some quotes from a book, where I provide zero data or studies, just make wild assertions".

I actually did provide data. His answer? "Oh, those 50 countries don't count because they were already poor."
 
The Vatican lost power during the unification of Italy when it was forced back and confined to a small border at the edge of the city. Prior to that, it was Napoleon whose French armies temporarily defeated the Vatican and brought sanity to what is now southern Italy. Before the Vatican lost power, they were confining Jews to ghettos and removing their merchant rights much like Hitler would later do (the men even had to wear embarrassing hats and a yellow Star of David in said ghettos, yellow being the colour of shame at the time); they were killing their own citizens left, right and center for heresy and suppressing all knowledge of the sciences that ran contrary to their God-centered universe. (It was around the time of Galileo's trial.) The Vatican ruled through fear and when the opportunity arose they were struck down by the impetus of a newly forming country made by people who were fed up with theocratic rule.

Your logic therefore does not completely follow. The Vatican did not aybdicate due to modernity but rather under force. There are many modern Catholics, in the billions actually, who live in urbanized areas. Many are even educated in modernity and have more moderate views, but if you are raised dogmatically then it's hard to completely reform. The Vatican itself still rakes in billions of dollars annually and holds priceless treasures, tomes and artifacts from 2000 years of rule, as well as the profits of war and gifts from state rulers like Hitler. You're making it seem like the Vatican is irrelevant but it's not. They hold political conference with world leaders all the time. The Pope has more access to leaders than the electorate does. The Vatican bank is a major broker in the world economy and they control huge stakes in Europe, much like the other royal families. They are just biding their time in case a political crisis happens where they can takeover rule again. Not likely to happen, but like the monarchs, they exist based on the possibility. In the mean time, they play world politics like they are still acknowledged heads of state.

The inquisition itself didn't end until halfway through the 1800's. The Vatican renamed its office of the inquisition to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but it still functions in the same capacity to this very day: ""The proper duty of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is to promote and safeguard the doctrine on faith and morals in the whole Catholic world; so it has competence in things that touch this matter in any way." (Wiki) Its powers are only limited by its restricted political influence. The Vatican was tamed by Napoleon which brought the liberalization of science and freer thinking to the Italian regions, but once the victory was reversed after Napoleon fell at Waterloo, the Inquisition tracked down all the progressives and killed them - but not before torturing them to find their accomplices. The history of the Vatican shows us that they do not change, they only bide their time.

The Rothschild banking family of Naples developed close ties to the Vatican Bank in the 19th century and that relationship continues to this day. The Rothschilds, in case you don't know, are one of the richest families in the world. They own massive stock and capital assets everywhere, and their influence can shift national economies, especially in Europe.

I think you greatly underestimate the political and financial influence that religion has on today's world. If our secular institutions are ever corroded, religious governance will just swoop back in again. Unlike the laissez-faire attitude of many secularists who think that their freedoms are duely enshrined and permanent, the religious institutions think it is their Divine Right to rule again in order to bring order to an increasingly sinful world. 100 years is not that long, the Vatican has been around for 2000 or so. They can wait, and in the mean time they hold economic and social influence over a lot of people. I don't think this is a good thing, but it is what it is. It's not just people in backwaters whose free thinking becomes compromised, but anyone who can be readily overpowered by someone skilled in dogma.

People of secular mindset need to be aware that the institutions of their freedoms are relatively new, historically speaking. They are built on the idea of justice and the concept of unalienable, innate qualities; but just because we say so doesn't mean another force can't just take them away. They are actually quite fragile and prone to corruptions. Church and State are separate for this reason. The Church operates on Divine Will but secular humanists operate on innate human free will to craft their own destinies.

People, even atheists, really need to understand that the core of a civilization operates upon a spiritual ideology. Society does not wax or wane based on the presence of religion, but on whatever the core spiritual assertion is. If you start to get all subjective and wishy washy about it, someone else is going to come in - who views their beliefs as more concrete than yours - and take away everything that you have. That's why we need to collectively make a choice and then defend it instead of vengefully destroying each other's rights out of spite.

Interesting post. I learned a lot. But you kind of proved my point by using the qualifier "modern" Catholic. It isnt the same religion even if it is the same church.
 
Interesting post. I learned a lot. But you kind of proved my point by using the qualifier "modern" Catholic. It isnt the same religion even if it is the same church.

It is because all Catholics view the Pope as the hotline to God so if he ever becomes their monarch again most would obey. Talk to most practicing Catholics and they will more or less admit that they believe in the Pope's power.

The power of the Vatican has been bred into Catholicism. They are not mutually exclusive.
 
The discussion of religion in China got me to thinking...

Looking at those cultures where religious belief is on the decline we find that most of them share certain other characteristics:

Their population of the traditional ethnic group is shrinking.
Their economy is in the doldrums or is declining.
Their productivity is down.
Their birth rate is below the level required for replacement.
Their divorces are up and their marriage rate down.
They are increasingly being replaced by other, more religious ethnic groups.

I'm speaking here of Western cultures in Europe, of course.

In mostly secular Russia the population of ethnic Russians is falling off a cliff and the birth rate is abysmal, so much so that Putin is publically alarmed by it.

Yes, yes, this is not always true. Northern European cultures are less Christian but still economically viable. They do, however, have lower populations and lower birth rates, increased divorce and less marriage.

In the US the lower socioeconomic strata have 30% more non-believers now than in 1960. They are also increasingly unemployed or completely withdrawn from the work force, drawing disability, and doing nothing but sitting around watching TV or playing video games.*

US citizens further up the food chain are doing better and have also not become less religious since 1960.

Meanwhile, as previously discussed, in China, which has bursting economic growth, we find that all kinds of religions are increasing.

Of course, correlation is not exact and there are probably some exceptions. But still...

____________
*Yes, the increase in atheism celebrated by so many is mainly in the lower classes. And in prisons. :lol:

I don't see the correlation here.

One must have some well defined terms as to what "decline" means. Religious growth or restriction can have an effect on individual liberty and and individual liberty most certainly has an effect on religious growth. So I believe you will find the actual ingredient is individual liberty as the accelerant for both economic and the cultural subset of religious growth.

I believe the actual correlation you will find with religious growth or decline looks more like a product market bell curve just extended over a longer time frame.

Where the product (individual liberty) has been in the place the longest it is appreciated the least and where it is "new" and "improved" it exciting and appreciated. Religion is a subset of individual liberty and IMO follows a similar diffusion curve.

This is not a reflection on the "product" however since virtually every "product" follows the same pattern it is a more reflection of human nature.

In any case I would argue that the decline of a society/culture is as a result of it restricting individual liberty whether that is in the name of some perceived popular common good or in an obvious power grab by some dictator.

Some one earlier made the great point that Christianity and government are corrupted when they come together, that is true. I would only repeat that the corruption is mutual by the combined and varied goals. Neither is free from corruption simply by remaining independant.

Any significant institution made up of human beings will have corrupt individuals who seek to corrupt others out of self interest and so therefore no organization of any kind that relies on human beings is ever free from human frailty.

Our society, which ever one we are in, is simply a larger more diverse similar institution. As the great philosopher POGO said "We have met the enemy and he is us."
 
Nice post, Gilbert, w/ a lot of insight.
Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express
 
Sorry that came across like that. I need a little more sleep. I did think that your assumption based on that lone piece of data may have a bit simplistic. You DID present data which was better than the OP, so kudos there.

Wtf? When did I say anything about you liking me, that I'm offended, or that you're not smart? Stay on topic.

Of course it's not, but those top 50 most religious countries fail in every aspect. I'm not saying that individuals being religious is bad in any way. I'm countering the OP's ridiculous assertion that religion is the only glue holding society together, and that the more irreligious we become, the more our society will plummet into chaos. He went out of his way to try to make the ridiculous claim that people who don't believe in god tend to be of low education, low morality, and as a whole are destroying society.

That's a mighty big claim that was backed up by "Here's some quotes from a book, where I provide zero data or studies, just make wild assertions".

I actually did provide data. His answer? "Oh, those 50 countries don't count because they were already poor."

Sent from my Nokia Lumia 920 using Board Express
 
In any case, real Christianity wants no role in government, since secular government is both good for society and good for Christianity. Every time Everything gets involved with goverment, both grow corrupt.

more like that to be honest.
 
The OP didn't provide any correlation. He produced zero data. He just said "I read it in a book".

I actually did provide data:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...ng-society-decline-also-5.html#post1061382475

I took the top 15 most religious, and top 15 least religious countries, and showed that there is a NEGATIVE correlation between religious levels and prosperity.

Hell, the top 50 most religious countries in the world are absolute **** holes.

Yea, that at least suggests that Islam does nothing good for a society... Doesn't really suggest anything else though. Maybe the OP should narrow down the term "religion" for his argument.
 
I don't see the correlation here.

One must have some well defined terms as to what "decline" means. Religious growth or restriction can have an effect on individual liberty and and individual liberty most certainly has an effect on religious growth. So I believe you will find the actual ingredient is individual liberty as the accelerant for both economic and the cultural subset of religious growth.

I believe the actual correlation you will find with religious growth or decline looks more like a product market bell curve just extended over a longer time frame.

Where the product (individual liberty) has been in the place the longest it is appreciated the least and where it is "new" and "improved" it exciting and appreciated. Religion is a subset of individual liberty and IMO follows a similar diffusion curve.

This is not a reflection on the "product" however since virtually every "product" follows the same pattern it is a more reflection of human nature.

In any case I would argue that the decline of a society/culture is as a result of it restricting individual liberty whether that is in the name of some perceived popular common good or in an obvious power grab by some dictator.

Some one earlier made the great point that Christianity and government are corrupted when they come together, that is true. I would only repeat that the corruption is mutual by the combined and varied goals. Neither is free from corruption simply by remaining independant.

Any significant institution made up of human beings will have corrupt individuals who seek to corrupt others out of self interest and so therefore no organization of any kind that relies on human beings is ever free from human frailty.

Our society, which ever one we are in, is simply a larger more diverse similar institution. As the great philosopher POGO said "We have met the enemy and he is us."

I can certainly see your point about liberty. In China there has been an increase of liberty and along with it an explosion of economic activity and an increase in religious belief, now at something like 25% of the population with 4% being Christian and most of the rest Buddhist.

Russia was officially atheistic under the USSR. Now they have 4% atheists. That seems to go along with an improving economy.

I can see a decline in individual liberty in the US, but I'm not aware of what the trends are on that in Europe or the rest of Asia, but it seems like the Euro-bureaucrats have everyone jumping through hoops and are meddling with the markets in every manner, so I suspect liberty is way down there, too.

In populations in the Middle East people don't have the liberty to not be religious, so that whole situation is skewed. They have next to no economic activity.

Spengler wrote that when the spirituality of a culture dies then the rest of the culture slowly dies along with it. This is associated with an increasingly authoritarian government toward the end.
 
Spirituality and a more nuanced understanding of faith..

Less dogma..

These are nice applause lines...they do not address the issue of the organization and institutions that religion provides. How does "spirituality" and "nuanced understanding of faith" unite a community? How does "less dogma" contribute to a sense of community?

Specifics, please. Please point to a "nuanced understanding of faith" civic action group.
 
It is because all Catholics view the Pope as the hotline to God so if he ever becomes their monarch again most would obey. Talk to most practicing Catholics and they will more or less admit that they believe in the Pope's power.

The power of the Vatican has been bred into Catholicism. They are not mutually exclusive.

I have a younger brother who is Catholic and a long time friend who is Catholic. Neither would agree with your position. I think that may just be your own wishful thinking.
 
I can certainly see your point about liberty. In China there has been an increase of liberty and along with it an explosion of economic activity and an increase in religious belief, now at something like 25% of the population with 4% being Christian and most of the rest Buddhist.

Russia was officially atheistic under the USSR. Now they have 4% atheists. That seems to go along with an improving economy.

I can see a decline in individual liberty in the US, but I'm not aware of what the trends are on that in Europe or the rest of Asia, but it seems like the Euro-bureaucrats have everyone jumping through hoops and are meddling with the markets in every manner, so I suspect liberty is way down there, too.

In populations in the Middle East people don't have the liberty to not be religious, so that whole situation is skewed. They have next to no economic activity.

Spengler wrote that when the spirituality of a culture dies then the rest of the culture slowly dies along with it. This is associated with an increasingly authoritarian government toward the end.

The only spirituality ~ liberty correlation there is, is a negative one. Being part of a religion inherently inhibits your liberty. There's nothing about someone worshiping a human being who died over 2,000 years ago that makes someone more inclined to liberty.

I have a younger brother who is Catholic and a long time friend who is Catholic. Neither would agree with your position. I think that may just be your own wishful thinking.

Well, according to catholicism, the pope is infallible, and a direct link to god. Ridiculous, I know.
 
The discussion of religion in China got me to thinking...

Looking at those cultures where religious belief is on the decline we find that most of them share certain other characteristics:

Their population of the traditional ethnic group is shrinking.
Their economy is in the doldrums or is declining.
Their productivity is down.
Their birth rate is below the level required for replacement.
Their divorces are up and their marriage rate down.
They are increasingly being replaced by other, more religious ethnic groups.

I'm speaking here of Western cultures in Europe, of course.

In mostly secular Russia the population of ethnic Russians is falling off a cliff and the birth rate is abysmal, so much so that Putin is publically alarmed by it.

Yes, yes, this is not always true. Northern European cultures are less Christian but still economically viable. They do, however, have lower populations and lower birth rates, increased divorce and less marriage.

In the US the lower socioeconomic strata have 30% more non-believers now than in 1960. They are also increasingly unemployed or completely withdrawn from the work force, drawing disability, and doing nothing but sitting around watching TV or playing video games.*

US citizens further up the food chain are doing better and have also not become less religious since 1960.

Meanwhile, as previously discussed, in China, which has bursting economic growth, we find that all kinds of religions are increasing.

Of course, correlation is not exact and there are probably some exceptions. But still...

____________
*Yes, the increase in atheism celebrated by so many is mainly in the lower classes. And in prisons. :lol:

Proof of your chinese findings? With a link to a source other than yourself.
 
I have a younger brother who is Catholic and a long time friend who is Catholic. Neither would agree with your position. I think that may just be your own wishful thinking.

We have different experiences with Catholics then, which I respect!
 
Proof of your chinese findings? With a link to a source other than yourself.

Berkley Center for Religion, Peace & World Affairs | Why Christianity is Thriving in China Today

Contains reference to estimates and surveys. It will take a bit more to bring up the actual data.

Our church group ranged from 10-20 when we first started and has split three times into three more groups of 10-20 since 2004. That was in 2009. I do not know the exact size of the group now, but it has not shrunk. I can give subjective observation from my time there and tell you that religion is booming and much more open. My best Chinese friends' wife is a Communist party lawyer...and a Christian. She's very pragmatic in her political views as much as they do not conflict with her faith. She's from Shanghai too. This is becoming more common, and it isn't just a countryside phenomenon either.
 
Well, according to catholicism, the pope is infallible, and a direct link to god. Ridiculous, I know.

I'm not so sure even the Orthodox Catholics believe that is the case. Have you read the things Popes have done through the centuries? Some of them have done some really messed up stuff.
 
The only spirituality ~ liberty correlation there is, is a negative one. Being part of a religion inherently inhibits your liberty. There's nothing about someone worshiping a human being who died over 2,000 years ago that makes someone more inclined to liberty.

Voluntarily joining a religious organization limits a person's liberty? I've been a member of a church for a long time and I have never had to do anything or not do anything that I didn't agree to.
 
Voluntarily joining a religious organization limits a person's liberty? I've been a member of a church for a long time and I have never had to do anything or not do anything that I didn't agree to.

Yeah, it's almost as stupid as a statement as your BS about being irreligious makes you generally uneducated and the bane of society.
 
I'm not so sure even the Orthodox Catholics believe that is the case. Have you read the things Popes have done through the centuries? Some of them have done some really messed up stuff.

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium

"This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion.(1*) And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful."

Well this is awkward...

"And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith"

Well this is REALLY awkward...

"For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith.(43*) The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter."

Could this BE anymore awkward?
 
I can certainly see your point about liberty. In China there has been an increase of liberty and along with it an explosion of economic activity and an increase in religious belief, now at something like 25% of the population with 4% being Christian and most of the rest Buddhist.

Russia was officially atheistic under the USSR. Now they have 4% atheists. That seems to go along with an improving economy.

I can see a decline in individual liberty in the US, but I'm not aware of what the trends are on that in Europe or the rest of Asia, but it seems like the Euro-bureaucrats have everyone jumping through hoops and are meddling with the markets in every manner, so I suspect liberty is way down there, too.

In populations in the Middle East people don't have the liberty to not be religious, so that whole situation is skewed. They have next to no economic activity.

Spengler wrote that when the spirituality of a culture dies then the rest of the culture slowly dies along with it. This is associated with an increasingly authoritarian government toward the end.

Yes and you are on point. The key terms are growth and decline. If there is no liberty there is no religious freedom. Without religious and economic freedom the society is frozen in time since they can not "grow". Growth can not be confused with good or bad, right or wrong it is simply expansion or contraction of the object of the point. Growth in religious and economic liberty has a specific effect, stagnation in an economic strata or a single religious or philosophical option has an effect.

So the middle east, with few exceptions, has very limited economic liberty and restricted religious liberty.

Religiosity or restriction of religion is not the measure, religious liberty is the measure I am suggesting is more influential than some nebulous commentary on religion itself.
 
Well, according to catholicism, the pope is infallible, and a direct link to god. Ridiculous, I know.

This is one of the most commonly repeated falicies about "catholicism" . The Pope is NOT infallible, the entire subject of a pope speaking ex-cathedra or "from the chair" is so specific and academically arkane as to make it rarer than Haley's comet.

No pope is infallible never has been and THAT is what the Catholic Church has taught since the time of Peter who was about as fallible as any man can get.
 
Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium

"This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion.(1*) And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful."

Well this is awkward...

"And this is the infallibility which the Roman Pontiff, the head of the college of bishops, enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith"

Well this is REALLY awkward...

"For then the Roman Pontiff is not pronouncing judgment as a private person, but as the supreme teacher of the universal Church, in whom the charism of infallibility of the Church itself is individually present, he is expounding or defending a doctrine of Catholic faith.(43*) The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter."

Could this BE anymore awkward?

It is helpful to understand the object of the infallibility, so diagram the sentence. It is the Magisterium to which the infallibility refers and the Magisterium is the Catholic doctrine transmitted handed down from one generation to another. The Cardinals and the Pope are the teachers the Magisterium is the teaching of the Church. It is on this very specific subject that a pope or collectively the college of Cardinals/Bishops can speak infallibly. This does not mean they as individuals are infallible nor that any thing or everything they say or do is infallible. The limitation is very very specific.

But it is far easier to state a belief which fits the narrative than take the 10 minutes to understand the nuance of the truth.
 
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