Where would North America and Planet Earth be if President Lincoln had failed? (1 Viewer)

[Linc]

OP#1--How would we have done with all of those wars through 1945? What would the Western part of the USA have turned into? How about the Native American wars? Would there even have been a Spanish-American war along with those results? How about the Panama Canal? Would we even have the National Park Service? How would that Eisenhower Interstate system be doing right now?

Choose your poison carefully on either World at War. Do you really think that Planet Earth could have stood up to the AXIS Powers?? With a fractured continent of "the Union, the Confederacy, Canada, and Mexico" ?? Would Hitler have stopped at dropping just TWO Atomic Bombs? From what country did the USA smuggle its scientists to make OUR Atomic WMD? And then there's the Born-Haber process to synthesize Ammonia to make TNT during WW I !! How would the proliferation of GUNS be doing right now? Would there be an NRA and the rest of the alphabet soup in government?

Let's continue with San Houston. Why did the Great Man oppose the Civil War? Was it because he was a Texan and/or an American First and not a Southerner first?

Being from Kentucky and having his political roots as a Northern Whig, Lincoln was the antithesis of "radical republicanism". He wanted to "go soft" on the South after the war. We saw what his party did after Lincoln was gone.

What would you have done if you were President Lincoln? Why the huge increase in Lincoln hate by Southern Avengers/Paulites? Is it because of the 150th commemoration of Gettysburg? Are these Paulites the living essence of Ron Paul's letters from two decades ago? Do Southerners not see the economic gains they have made since the civil war? Where would they be without the preponderance of Defense installations per capita compared to the North? Would there governors be able to go to Northern states and poach jobs instead of in-sourcing from abroad or development from within?

This silly meme of repeating what JW Booth supposedly said wouldn't even be out there if Lincoln had not saved the UNITED States so they could complain about everything state's rights. These very same Lincoln-haters, so many professing to be born-again Christians, seem to have dismissed their own Golden rule. That being, things happen in this World for a reason and it is not for Man to reason why in a theological way.

My sorrow goes out to those who can't get past their own feelings of whether Lincoln bent, stretched or broke the rules of the Constitution to save the USA. He was not perfect. None of us are. I will remain forever grateful that Lincoln was placed on this Earth when he was. Just as I do that the greatest collection of the greatest Physicists/Chemists to ever live just happened to be the 70 or so years DIRECTLY after the civil war.

 

[clownboy]

I'm conflicted about Lincoln. He destroyed the Constitution and the United States. Made it into a federal nation and the feds have done nothing but take power they shouldn't have had after that. However, as a man of his time, he did what he thought was best for the nation as a whole and was key in ending slavery (the beginning of the end at least).

He sent a lot of young men to die in a war they didn't want to fight in, particularly immigrants. He tore the country apart and put it back together as something the founders would have been radically opposed to (some of the founders at least).

 

[Linc]

I'm conflicted about Lincoln. He destroyed the Constitution and the United States. Made it into a federal nation and the feds have done nothing but take power they shouldn't have had after that. However, as a man of his time, he did what he thought was best for the nation as a whole and was key in ending slavery (the beginning of the end at least).

He sent a lot of young men to die in a war they didn't want to fight in, particularly immigrants. He tore the country apart and put it back together as something the founders would have been radically opposed to (some of the founders at least).

Politico has a nice article today on the war movie, "Copperhead". With many direct quotes from the producer, he steers clear of calling it a political film. R. Viguerie is quoted as calling it a movie that "all cons should see", politicizing it. The movie is said to bring the Constitution into focus by ALL.

 

[Sherman123]

He saved the country and struck a blow for democratic rule.

The idea of a Republic being able to endure dissension and survive it's tribulations and emerge as an attractive vehicle for government is directly attributable to the fortitude he showed as President. Lincoln understood what many at the time did not, that the eyes of the world were upon the United States. The destruction of the Union would have undermined Republican government everywhere and strengthened autocrats the world over. The government could not be dissolved due to the frivolities of election outrage, nor could it be torn asunder by violent rebellion. Especially not a rebellion led by aristocratic planters and slave holders.

He saved the country from becoming a splintered wreck. The secession of the Confederacy would surely have created an armed tension on the continent that may never have disappeared. Moreover it would have almost certainly prompted similar efforts both within the Confederacy and the Union has time wore on (some stresses in the Midwest, New England, California, Texas, and Georgia, could already be seen during the war). The result would have been a dysfunctional collection of polities unable to pool their resources, their genius, and their industry to become the greatest country on the face of the earth.

He prevented a slave holding aristocracy from arising as a major power in the Americas, and by his determination to prosecute the war as a liberating one struck a moral blow for millions of enslaved Americans.

Whats more he did all of this without destroying the Constitution. He had the foresight and wisdom to realize that it was better to bend and stretch that document than to allow the entire country to fall to tatters.

I have no sympathy for the rebellion, and I find this resurgent pro-South narrative that has cropped up within the past 3-4 years as childish.

 

[YoungConserv]

Well if fort Sumter had been abandoned and the Feds allowed secession they could have developed into manufacturing and agrarian nations both which when working together I think could have archived the same results for ww2 and ww1

 

[Master PO]

He saved the country and struck a blow for democratic rule.

The idea of a Republic being able to endure dissension and survive it's tribulations and emerge as an attractive vehicle for government is directly attributable to the fortitude he showed as President. Lincoln understood what many at the time did not, that the eyes of the world were upon the United States. The destruction of the Union would have undermined Republican government everywhere and strengthened autocrats the world over. The government could not be dissolved due to the frivolities of election outrage, nor could it be torn asunder by violent rebellion. Especially not a rebellion led by aristocratic planters and slave holders.

He saved the country from becoming a splintered wreck. The secession of the Confederacy would surely have created an armed tension on the continent that may never have disappeared. Moreover it would have almost certainly prompted similar efforts both within the Confederacy and the Union has time wore on (some stresses in the Midwest, New England, California, Texas, and Georgia, could already be seen during the war). The result would have been a dysfunctional collection of polities unable to pool their resources, their genius, and their industry to become the greatest country on the face of the earth.

He prevented a slave holding aristocracy from arising as a major power in the Americas, and by his determination to prosecute the war as a liberating one struck a moral blow for millions of enslaved Americans.

Whats more he did all of this without destroying the Constitution. He had the foresight and wisdom to realize that it was better to bend and stretch that document than to allow the entire country to fall to tatters.

I have no sympathy for the rebellion, and I find this resurgent pro-South narrative that has cropped up within the past 3-4 years as childish.

your argument has many holes in it.

 

[Higgins86]

The world would be fine since most countries had already banned slavery.

 

[Sherman123]

The world would be fine since most countries had already banned slavery.

That isn't the metric you generally use when gauging the impact of an atrocity. For the millions of slaves still in bondage it was undoubtedly a nightmare.

 

[Higgins86]

That isn't the metric you generally use when gauging the impact of an atrocity. For the millions of slaves still in bondage it was undoubtedly a nightmare.

no but for the rest of the world it didnt change anything....

 

[Sherman123]

no but for the rest of the world it didnt change anything....

My reference to the rest of the world had to do with the stability and reputability of Republican government, not slavery.

 

[Wiggen]

I think most of us outside the south would be far better off if the South had succeeded with secession. The 'Confederacy' would have collapsed onto itself eventually, as they learned that a bunch of feudal aristocracies, dependent on slave labor, couldn't have survived the industrial age.

Frankly, other than freeing the slaves, I'm not sure much positive came out of the Civil War. We are not a united country by any stretch of the imagination now, and the divide is much as it was in 1860 between those who believe in a strong central government and those who don't. The south as an entity has proven, with a handful of exceptions, to be a drag on the rest of us.

 

[Wiggen]

HIggy: Ssshhhh! Most of the Conservatives who post on this forum think that we led the way in abolishing slavery. Just ask Michele Bachmann.

 

[Master PO]

I think most of us outside the south would be far better off if the South had succeeded with secession. The 'Confederacy' would have collapsed onto itself eventually, as they learned that a bunch of feudal aristocracies, dependent on slave labor, couldn't have survived the industrial age.

Frankly, other than freeing the slaves, I'm not sure much positive came out of the Civil War. We are not a united country by any stretch of the imagination now, and the divide is much as it was in 1860 between those who believe in a strong central government and those who don't. The south as an entity has proven, with a handful of exceptions, to be a drag on the rest of us.

:rofl:

 

[clownboy]

Politico has a nice article today on the war movie, "Copperhead". With many direct quotes from the producer, he steers clear of calling it a political film. R. Viguerie is quoted as calling it a movie that "all cons should see", politicizing it. The movie is said to bring the Constitution into focus by ALL.

Saw it and it made me explore the history of the Copperheads. Remarkable folks, sufferred a lot of backlash from the Lincoln supporters. They were strict constitutionalists. Had I been living then I'd have been on their side.

 

[American]

He saved the country and struck a blow for democratic rule.

The idea of a Republic being able to endure dissension and survive it's tribulations and emerge as an attractive vehicle for government is directly attributable to the fortitude he showed as President. Lincoln understood what many at the time did not, that the eyes of the world were upon the United States. The destruction of the Union would have undermined Republican government everywhere and strengthened autocrats the world over. The government could not be dissolved due to the frivolities of election outrage, nor could it be torn asunder by violent rebellion. Especially not a rebellion led by aristocratic planters and slave holders.

He saved the country from becoming a splintered wreck. The secession of the Confederacy would surely have created an armed tension on the continent that may never have disappeared. Moreover it would have almost certainly prompted similar efforts both within the Confederacy and the Union has time wore on (some stresses in the Midwest, New England, California, Texas, and Georgia, could already be seen during the war). The result would have been a dysfunctional collection of polities unable to pool their resources, their genius, and their industry to become the greatest country on the face of the earth.

He prevented a slave holding aristocracy from arising as a major power in the Americas, and by his determination to prosecute the war as a liberating one struck a moral blow for millions of enslaved Americans.

Whats more he did all of this without destroying the Constitution. He had the foresight and wisdom to realize that it was better to bend and stretch that document than to allow the entire country to fall to tatters.

I have no sympathy for the rebellion, and I find this resurgent pro-South narrative that has cropped up within the past 3-4 years as childish.

He didn't damage the Constitution, that was done after the war with poorly written amendments, and draconian unequal laws.

 

[Grand Mal]

OP#1--How would we have done with all of those wars through 1945? What would the Western part of the USA have turned into? How about the Native American wars? Would there even have been a Spanish-American war along with those results? How about the Panama Canal? Would we even have the National Park Service? How would that Eisenhower Interstate system be doing right now?

Choose your poison carefully on either World at War. Do you really think that Planet Earth could have stood up to the AXIS Powers?? With a fractured continent of "the Union, the Confederacy, Canada, and Mexico" ?? Would Hitler have stopped at dropping just TWO Atomic Bombs? From what country did the USA smuggle its scientists to make OUR Atomic WMD? And then there's the Born-Haber process to synthesize Ammonia to make TNT during WW I !! How would the proliferation of GUNS be doing right now? Would there be an NRA and the rest of the alphabet soup in government?

Let's continue with San Houston. Why did the Great Man oppose the Civil War? Was it because he was a Texan and/or an American First and not a Southerner first?

Being from Kentucky and having his political roots as a Northern Whig, Lincoln was the antithesis of "radical republicanism". He wanted to "go soft" on the South after the war. We saw what his party did after Lincoln was gone.

What would you have done if you were President Lincoln? Why the huge increase in Lincoln hate by Southern Avengers/Paulites? Is it because of the 150th commemoration of Gettysburg? Are these Paulites the living essence of Ron Paul's letters from two decades ago? Do Southerners not see the economic gains they have made since the civil war? Where would they be without the preponderance of Defense installations per capita compared to the North? Would there governors be able to go to Northern states and poach jobs instead of in-sourcing from abroad or development from within?

This silly meme of repeating what JW Booth supposedly said wouldn't even be out there if Lincoln had not saved the UNITED States so they could complain about everything state's rights. These very same Lincoln-haters, so many professing to be born-again Christians, seem to have dismissed their own Golden rule. That being, things happen in this World for a reason and it is not for Man to reason why in a theological way.

My sorrow goes out to those who can't get past their own feelings of whether Lincoln bent, stretched or broke the rules of the Constitution to save the USA. He was not perfect. None of us are. I will remain forever grateful that Lincoln was placed on this Earth when he was. Just as I do that the greatest collection of the greatest Physicists/Chemists to ever live just happened to be the 70 or so years DIRECTLY after the civil war.

Yikes.
What if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia? For that matter, what if Napoleon hadn't? What if the Spanish Armada had defeated the English? What if the Mongol invasion hadn't been halted by tribal infighting?
Indulge yourself, but don't pretend these idle fantasies mean anything.

 

[Morality Games]

I think most of us outside the south would be far better off if the South had succeeded with secession. The 'Confederacy' would have collapsed onto itself eventually, as they learned that a bunch of feudal aristocracies, dependent on slave labor, couldn't have survived the industrial age.

Frankly, other than freeing the slaves, I'm not sure much positive came out of the Civil War. We are not a united country by any stretch of the imagination now, and the divide is much as it was in 1860 between those who believe in a strong central government and those who don't. The south as an entity has proven, with a handful of exceptions, to be a drag on the rest of us.

The important point was to eliminate the South as a competitor for the unexploited Western territories, which was part of the subtext behind the war anyway. Lincoln's big blow against slavery was to stop it from spreading further in the territories, which limited the spread of Southern culture and the economic and political structures it created.

 

[Linc]

Yikes.
What if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia? For that matter, what if Napoleon hadn't? What if the Spanish Armada had defeated the English? What if the Mongol invasion hadn't been halted by tribal infighting?
Indulge yourself, but don't pretend these idle fantasies mean anything.

Only your Hitler question is time-appropriate to my OP. I opine that Japan would have helped Hitler more with Russia since a Pearl Harbor and a USA would not have been on the table. World War Two may not have been needed for Germany with a non-existent USA during WW I.

 

[Linc]

The important point was to eliminate the South as a competitor for the unexploited Western territories, which was part of the subtext behind the war anyway. Lincoln's big blow against slavery was to stop it from spreading further in the territories, which limited the spread of Southern culture and the economic and political structures it created.

Yes Lincoln did not want any more Missouri compromises. There was always going to be a civil war with the 10th amendment. I find it interesting that OK was the last state of fighting, the end of the Trail of Tears. For me, Lincoln and Houston were more global and eternal in their acts.

 

[Grand Mal]

Only your Hitler question is time-appropriate to my OP..

?

I opine that Japan would have helped Hitler more with Russia since a Pearl Harbor and a USA would not have been on the table. World War Two may not have been needed for Germany with a non-existent USA during WW I.[/QUOTE]

Do you consider that the US had an influence in the outcome of WWI?

 

[Linc]

?

I opine that Japan would have helped Hitler more with Russia since a Pearl Harbor and a USA would not have been on the table. World War Two may not have been needed for Germany with a non-existent USA during WW I.

Do you consider that the US had an influence in the outcome of WWI?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I do consider that the USA had an influence in WW I. I'm still wondering about the Panama Canal and Spanish-American war if we had at least two separate countries. However, I'm conflicted between "choices" and "preordained fate", if Lincoln happened when he did for a reason.

 

[Wiggen]

:rofl:

Why doesn't it surprise me that a guy who admires the Waffen SS would also be a big admirer of the South?

 

[Master PO]

Why doesn't it surprise me that a guy who admires the Waffen SS would also be a big admirer of the South?

well nothing about you is different, you seemed to be of a one track mind.

why dont you try reading something, like the 1828 traffic act, which the federal government and the northern states colluded together to hurt the southern economy.

 

[Smeagol]

North American race relations would be a couple of decades a half a century behind South Africa, especially in the south. The western superpower would be made up of the union north and the UK with the UK as the leader or possibly just the British Empire. Probably no space program and all of its spinoff innovations.

 

[Paschendale]

There was really no other way that the civil war could have ended. The south could never have won and no sane north would ever have let the country split in half. Real life does not work that way.