• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Where is my party.

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I'm a heart a Libertatian.

I am the only Libertarian here that I have seen. One guy claimed to be and even made that his name. I took him to the wood shed.

Now there are two kinds of Libertarian. Those with the motto: "If it doesn't harm anyone else then it sould be legel".

And the other kind: Similar motto but with SOME logical exceptions.

On this thread I will post every so often. When I feel that point has ran it's course , I will add another post.
I will make two statements of MY political beliefs. One pro conservative. One pro liberal. Or against, however it works out.

For an example: "I hate clowns, but I love red round rubber ball noses."

The point I will try to make here is how can so many be in complete agreement with the Democrats or Republicans. It astounds me. Leads me to believe that most peoples political leanings comes from someone else. My opinion is that the Libertarian Party, (not the nut case side of them) takes the best of both main parties and throws out the trash. Logic, I feel, prevails.

Some of my posts will be two side of the same coin"
I like the circus, but I'm afraid of clowns.
Or not:
I like the circus. I hate crowds.

Don't try to "read" anything into these. I'm just saying, "Where's my party".

Once one subject is explored we will drop it and go to the next. Leave the old alone please. These threads have a way off getting off topic.

If there are those who don't wanna play by the rules, I implore the rest to chastise them, and ignore their comments. I put this in the basement because we get to say what we think, and guests don't get to view them. And it's close to the monkey pens.

I will post my two view points. (One pro liberal, one pro conservative). I may or may not extrapolate. Then it's up to you to debate the two given points. Please folks if this is to suceed I need your cooperation. You think I'm a dic*k? Then go say so on the Top Ten thread. Part of it is teacher abuse, given or taken.

Class ib session.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Topic #1. Taxes.


Pro Conservative: I don't think anyone should pay a higher percentage of income tax than any other.

Pro Liberal: The rich can afford to pay more, after all, they have more.

Answer: Consumption tax. Food is exempt. First 10k or 20k is rebateable. You are only taxed on what you spend. The rich spend WAY more. No don't bring all the usual arguments here, stick with the topic. I, teacher, of the massive brain, want to learn.

Why doesn't the libs or cons want this? Takes away the power over the taxpayer.

Think about it people. Even if you make your money on the side, you still have to buy stuff.
 

debate_junkie

Worst Nightmare
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Messages
919
Reaction score
19
Location
Pennsylvania
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/jan-june05/consumption_3-3.html

I just watched this teach. It is from March 3 of this year... very insightful into the pro's and con's of this issue.

One question I have though... if a national sales tax, if you will, is put into place... wouldn't those living in states with a sales tax be taxed twice? How would that work?

I do believe the idea has merit. The point was raised on the newshour clip about lower and middle income families having their tax burdens, under a consumption tax, raised, because they generally need to spend more of their earned dollars, and save very little. Whereas upper income families generally spend more, but also can save a heck of alot more.

Both sides agreed there will be challenges in setting this up and keeping it balanced among all earning levels. I relish discussion on this issue, and hope to find more

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:1:./temp/~c109xIZU5I::

Fair Tax Act of 2005. For those who haven't seen it.
 

jakurus

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Teacher, you aren't a libertarian, you're a dumbass.
 

galenrox

ROCK AND ROLL MASTER
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
1,571
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
jakurus said:
Teacher, you aren't a libertarian, you're a dumbass.
you're a jerk! He's making a serious point here about the failures of the two parties, and makes a long thought out statement, and your response is essentially to verbally drool on yourself.
 

jakurus

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
90
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
This is the basement and I don't like teacher.

FLAME ON - Costanza
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
teacher said:
Topic #1. Taxes.


Pro Conservative: I don't think anyone should pay a higher percentage of income tax than any other.

Pro Liberal: The rich can afford to pay more, after all, they have more.

Answer: Consumption tax. Food is exempt. First 10k or 20k is rebateable. You are only taxed on what you spend. The rich spend WAY more. No don't bring all the usual arguments here, stick with the topic. I, teacher, of the massive brain, want to learn.

Why doesn't the libs or cons want this? Takes away the power over the taxpayer.

Think about it people. Even if you make your money on the side, you still have to buy stuff.

Rich people might spend way more than poor people, but poor people spend everything they make. In fact, they spend more. My ex-economic professor (who I'm beginning to distrust more and more...thanks galenrox:2razz: ) said that the poorer people spend 120% of their income.

It's basically the same idea of a flat tax, with the same problem.

Let's say there's a 10% consumption tax.

One guy makes 10,000 a year, and spends 12,000. He ends up paying 1,200 in taxes. A huge chunk for a guy that makes 10,000.

Now we have another guy who makes 100,000 a year, and spends 60,000. He'll be paying 6,000. Not all that terrible to a guy making 100,000.

Good thread by the way.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Kelzie said:
That's why the first 10 or 20k are TOTALLY refundable. To give the poor the ability to spend ALL their money on the needed living neccesities. THE TRULEY POOR DON'T PAY TAXES. And. People who make their money on the side still have to buy milk, eh? So they pay tax. Only the proven poor escape taxes.
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
teacher said:
That's why the first 10 or 20k are TOTALLY refundable. To give the poor the ability to spend ALL their money on the needed living neccesities. THE TRULEY POOR DON'T PAY TAXES. And. People who make their money on the side still have to buy milk, eh? So they pay tax. Only the proven poor escape taxes.

Hmm...I kinda like it. Although you'd have to make it sorta high. Most people just don't spend more that 50 grand a year. So you'd have a 40-30K window in which you could tax people.

Two things:

There's a new libertarian donkey. Not really a donkey, but I'm not quite sure what they are called. Go into join user group under user cp, or something like that. You're a smart guy, you'll figure it out. vague was nice enough to make some new symbols, so I'm bugging everyone to use them.

Your pm box is full. Fix it yo.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Kelzie said:
Hmm...I kinda like it. Although you'd have to make it sorta high. Most people just don't spend more that 50 grand a year. So you'd have a 40-30K window in which you could tax people.
You are only taxed on what you buy.

Two things:

There's a new libertarian donkey. Not really a donkey, but I'm not quite sure what they are called.
Looks like a pointy headed guy on a pogo stick.
vague was nice enough to make some new symbols, so I'm bugging everyone to use them.
Yes ma.
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Wait, I just thought of a really bad side. The paper work. You would have to keep track of every single thing you bought until you reached 10 or 20,000 so you could get your rebate. That's a lot of receipts. So would other necessities like heat and water count?
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
jakurus said:
Teacher, you aren't a libertarian, you're a dumbass.

Okay genius, I'll take the dumbass one. Since your so smart explain to me why I am not a Libertarian. Specificaly. Better have your shi*t right or I'll read your posts and then shred your ass. First. Please expain to me the basic tenant of the Libertarian party. Oh my I can smell blood. Dumbass? Is that the best you can do. Junior, you better go read some of my smack posts and either recant or come up with something better than "dumbass". This is your one and only warning.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Kelzie said:
Wait, I just thought of a really bad side. The paper work. You would have to keep track of every single thing you bought until you reached 10 or 20,000 so you could get your rebate. That's a lot of receipts. So would other necessities like heat and water count?
There is no paperwork. The IRS is gone. The poor are granted a rebate on their first whatever. They made 20k. Rebate so much. Around 23%. So Uncle Sam writes them a check for 4600$. After 20k they pay 23% like everyone else. They pay tax on water after their first 20k. Next.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
jakurus said:
This is the basement and I don't like teacher.

FLAME ON - Costanza
Slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, sloped-foreheaded, bogger-eating, ugly-little-Barney-loving-spineless-sap, you probably don't like Pez either. Yea, this IS the basement. Act accordingly, please. Or I'll have to get ugly. Notice your dumb ass didn't read the part in post #1 about leaving the insults in TT's and teacher abuse. So I thought I'd be stupid like YOU.

Class dismissed. Pansey.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
teacher said:
Topic #1. Taxes.


Pro Conservative: I don't think anyone should pay a higher percentage of income tax than any other.

Pro Liberal: The rich can afford to pay more, after all, they have more.
I've listened to both sides of this issue for the last couple of years now and remain conservative about taxes, yes, the rich can pay more, but in my opinion that form of thinking is un-american. I'll explain this in minimal detail, firstly, most wealthy people have to do more to maintain said wealth, whether it is through business, stocks, mutual funds, etc. in a dynamic market static business practices lead to failure, this hard work is penalized through a progressive income tax. The principle of working hard and reaping rewards is thus violated by punitive tax codes and is only justified by using the class envy card, sure it hurts a minority of citizens and benefits many, but that's not the point they are citizens of our beloved country and deserve the same fair treatment as anyone else, it is easier to screw them however becuase of negative feelings towards the haves from the have nots(in which I currently belong(working on that though)).

Answer: Consumption tax. Food is exempt. First 10k or 20k is rebateable. You are only taxed on what you spend. The rich spend WAY more. No don't bring all the usual arguments here, stick with the topic. I, teacher, of the massive brain, want to learn.
I like it! want to see alot of debate on how to further the idea.
Why doesn't the libs or cons want this? Takes away the power over the taxpayer.
I agree, most of the problems with politicians is their lust for power, that's why they won't fully represent us and institute term limits.

Think about it people. Even if you make your money on the side, you still have to buy stuff.
That point was made by a few of the people who wrote about the national sales tax issue, the prime example was drug dealers, there is currently no way to obtain tax revenue from these guys because of the black market nature of their transactions so they essentially make tons of cash that will not be reported, however, they must buy items like everyone else, so essentially, now they must pay taxes.
 

LaMidRighter

Klattu Verata Nicto
DP Veteran
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
30,534
Reaction score
10,682
Location
Louisiana
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
Kelzie said:
Rich people might spend way more than poor people, but poor people spend everything they make. In fact, they spend more. My ex-economic professor (who I'm beginning to distrust more and more...thanks galenrox:2razz: ) said that the poorer people spend 120% of their income.
I have seen an interesting point on this one. Most people don't realize how much they would make if we didn't have an automatic witholding on gross pay, and most people don't take the time to adjust gross minus net to see what they are losing on taxes(such as FICA and the NPIT) this is easy to figure out, if you recieved your whole paycheck you would see quite a percentage increase in weekly pay, now, with this increase you would not need to borrow the money for basic needs, credit is essentially what makes your paycheck less valuable in this regard, if someone making less can get by with basic necessities and simple luxuries long enough to put away some money, then they shouldn't need credit and in fact now have investment dollars, this would more than likely become possible if the national sales tax were adopted.

It's basically the same idea of a flat tax, with the same problem.
that's a tricky one, naturally tax reform would have to be carefully planned out so as not to permanently damage anyone, but I understand where you are coming from here.
Let's say there's a 10% consumption tax.

One guy makes 10,000 a year, and spends 12,000. He ends up paying 1,200 in taxes. A huge chunk for a guy that makes 10,000.
Now we have another guy who makes 100,000 a year, and spends 60,000. He'll be paying 6,000. Not all that terrible to a guy making 100,000.
The nice thing about this math is that it is irrelevant(not a shot at you by any means) I say this because the nature of people to spend more as they make it means that when there is no report day for taxes, people will know exactly what they are going to spend on taxes by budgeting and factoring in the sales taxes, meaning the people with more money should be more prone to purchase more luxuries, meaning that the market will see more money coming in as sales increase and should trickle down to the working class in the form of jobs, which would then mean more buyers, it's a cyclical thing and is not an absolute, but a definite possibility.

Good thread by the way.
No doubt.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
This thread is dead. How quickly my point (one of them) is proven. A consumption tax makes too much sense. Both parties want nothing to do with it as it takes away their power. Folks on this site for the most part can't address it because it's not part of their "learned" talking points. They can't address it because they haven't been "told" what to think. Sad really. Shows me people on this site are more concerned with the fight than what the fight is about. Some other topics on this thread might have been "oil" and "term limits", and how both parties have put the public against each other to further their run on power and money. Strangely similar to the ruling class of the Arabs. Their people should be more concerned with how can so few benifit from a natural resource. Instead their leaders have managed to deflect their attention to "The Great Satan" all while holding onto their power and wealth. Keep watching American Idol folks. Let me know when Tom Cruise gets his braces off. After all, these seem to be the important things in life.

Rarely have I seen a topic reach what should be a logical conclusion on this site. There are only so many points to be made. I find both sides lie to win a argument. An argument won by deceit must feel a hollow victory indeed. I find myself on this site growing more and more away from debate with those that can't answer a direct question to the mere fun of top tens and baiting liars like champs. So many questions I have asked that have not been answered.

To the supporters of the Islamic fanatics. Defend the TARGETTING OF CHILDREN.

To the believers that our government orchestrated 9/11. Find one fault in all my posts.

To those that say Bush lied. What lies exactly did he tell?

To champs. Explain the "Monkey Fiasco".

Big one here. To all those who say we have no right to invade a soveriegn nation. I've asked, "In a country where half the population can't go to school, can't vote, can't learn to read, have no say in who they marry, can't work, can't hold public office, can't dress how they want, ect. wouldn't that be the definition of slaves in any other context? Oh you all so resoundly answer yes to that. Then comes, with our great military and economic might is it not our moral obligation to do something about that? Again yes. Then explain to me the difference between Arab women and slaves? Not an answer yet. Guess that one has not been included in your "talking points".

To those that think we live in a Democracy. I say "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner". Tell me different. No takers yet.

To those of you who say France doesn't suck. You suck too.

To Sqwaker. Sorry to see you go. You played it low key with the best of them.

To cnredd. I bet you're ugly. Just what's needed in the command of my monkey army.

1300 posts folks. Show me where I have been proven wrong. Use copy and paste. Yea, that's a challange. About the only things I've learned here (list here) is that waters smallest volume is at 4 degrees. Thank you Kelzie. Check that thread out if you want to see some all around stupidity. Tetracide confirmed my belief that China did indeed abstain from sanctions against Iraq. Naughty Nurse confirmed my belief that the term "bumbershoot" may have come from a Disney movie. Gandhi>Bush is a paid killer. GySgt confirmed all that I thought is going on on the ground. I've learned that if you know something and don't provide a link that someone else will provide it for you to the consternation of the one who cried, "I demand a source". I suck at spelling with out spellcheck. That I, teacher, of the massive brain, define RANT. No one has yet out smacked me. I want to see it. I can LEARN from him. That I'm the first to use the sig line (maybe) as a changing billboard that no one can get away from. Every time I change it it shows up in 1300 different places immeadiatly. Sweet.

The moral of the story?

Smoking is bad for your health. (Okay someone, where does that come from?) J.I. If you're so friggin smart?

Note to self: Maybe this aint such a good idea.

Did you all see where I said I have 1300 posts? Prove me wrong with copy and paste? Well? That's a lot of shi*t to remember. I'm saying I'm right. That is a very big thing to say. Very arrogent of me. Big chance here. I'm either confident or crazy. Serious stuff only please. Hmmmm.

Free the women.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
teacher said:
To cnredd. I bet you're ugly. Just what's needed in the command of my monkey army.
Six hours of facial reconstructive surgery will do that to ya...

I always say I'm going to sue the surgeon that put my face back together...

I'm gonna go up to the judge and say, "Your honor...I look like me!...Then he'll say to the surgeon..."Pay the man."
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Yay I got mentioned!!!

On the note of Arab women's rights, I am reading Reading Lolita in Tehran. It makes me, as a liberal wonder. Why is it okay to treat women like that? Is that something we should accept? If it happened in my country, I would give my life to doing something about it. Why is it okay when it happens it another country?

And than the realistic side kicks in. It is unrealistic to invade all Arab countries. If Bush had really wanted to free the women, he would have invaded Saudi Arabia, which is much more oppresive. And I don't think he lied, I think he acted on faulty info. Which also sucks.

Forgot to say: Hey teach, let's get back on topic. Do another one of those liberals are wrong, conservatives are wrong thingies.
 

deadroses

New member
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
47
Reaction score
0
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Kelzie said:
Yay I got mentioned!!!

On the note of Arab women's rights, I am reading Reading Lolita in Tehran. It makes me, as a liberal wonder. Why is it okay to treat women like that? Is that something we should accept? If it happened in my country, I would give my life to doing something about it. Why is it okay when it happens it another country?

And than the realistic side kicks in. It is unrealistic to invade all Arab countries. If Bush had really wanted to free the women, he would have invaded Saudi Arabia, which is much more oppresive. And I don't think he lied, I think he acted on faulty info. Which also sucks.

Forgot to say: Hey teach, let's get back on topic. Do another one of those liberals are wrong, conservatives are wrong thingies.

hehe not to go back off topic... but I am reading that book too!!!! I started it a few weeks ago, and just replunged into it I wanted to read it before school starts and i get my butt kicked again.:2razz:


I don't think Bush is out to free the women... in any country... and if he were.. he definetly wouldn't start with our allie saudi arabia.... why would he do anything like that?
 

Kelzie

The Almighty
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
13,534
Reaction score
1,000
Location
Denver, CO
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
deadroses said:
hehe not to go back off topic... but I am reading that book too!!!! I started it a few weeks ago, and just replunged into it I wanted to read it before school starts and i get my butt kicked again.:2razz:


I don't think Bush is out to free the women... in any country... and if he were.. he definetly wouldn't start with our allie saudi arabia.... why would he do anything like that?
Totally agree. But if he was, would you support it?
 

MiamiFlorida

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
434
Reaction score
1
Location
Miami
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
teacher said:
Topic #1. Taxes.


Pro Conservative: I don't think anyone should pay a higher percentage of income tax than any other.

Pro Liberal: The rich can afford to pay more, after all, they have more.

Answer: Consumption tax. Food is exempt. First 10k or 20k is rebateable. You are only taxed on what you spend. The rich spend WAY more. No don't bring all the usual arguments here, stick with the topic. I, teacher, of the massive brain, want to learn.

Why doesn't the libs or cons want this? Takes away the power over the taxpayer.

Think about it people. Even if you make your money on the side, you still have to buy stuff.
I think that's a GREAT idea, and there would be no tax "loopholes".
 

sargasm

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
63
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I am a socialist at heart but they wont get enough support to do anything so I usually support democrats in elections, but I am pissed off with the current democratic party trying to play the middle man. They need to get some spine and point out how idiotic the conservative agenda is right now. that might save them
 

galenrox

ROCK AND ROLL MASTER
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
1,571
Reaction score
38
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
sargasm said:
I am a socialist at heart but they wont get enough support to do anything so I usually support democrats in elections, but I am pissed off with the current democratic party trying to play the middle man. They need to get some spine and point out how idiotic the conservative agenda is right now. that might save them
well a problem that I see is that a lot of people equate back bone with radicalism, and thus a lot of people don't think that one can be a moderate and have spine. Like, I hate both parties with a passion, but up until Bush I liked republicans more than democrats, and now its vice versa, and so I'm essentially a moderate, and I have a lot of spine about my beliefs.
 

teacher

DP Veteran
Joined
May 20, 2005
Messages
5,980
Reaction score
30
Location
Nomad.Got a couch,beer,meat,cute daughters,Batman
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
galenrox said:
well a problem that I see is that a lot of people equate back bone with radicalism, and thus a lot of people don't think that one can be a moderate and have spine. Like, I hate both parties with a passion, but up until Bush I liked republicans more than democrats, and now its vice versa, and so I'm essentially a moderate, and I have a lot of spine about my beliefs.
I was wondering why you.......put it like this. I find little difference between you and I, EXCEPT FOR MY FRIGGIN MOM, but she seems happy. Check out the reasonable Libertarian party. It's a wasted vote for sure, but damn sure has a lack of representation on this site. Cept for me of course.

I'll say it again. Libertarian party seems to take the logical of both parties and throws the rest away. But they can't seen to get a foot hold. Why is that? I know. Follow the MONEY. Until the majority learn to think for them self and read between the medias and the the party lines, we are doomed to stay this course.

For myself. I'll listen to ALL OZZY and see who I can annoy.

It's my niche.
 
Top Bottom