Where are the real leaders?

[ludin]

I blame the press. Sick to DEATH of those, "When did ou stop beating your wife?" questions.

yep I agree as well I think the press has a lot to do with it. the world of 5 second sound clips can make anyone sound stupid and distort what anyone says.
I think if you can't publish what the person says in full context then you shouldn't publish it at all.

 

[ludin]

They weren't considered unpopular.
They did those things because they were popular and because it's still popular.

Trump, Carson, Sanders and Clinton are doing well because they're following the same formula.

then you are ignoring most of history that or you don't know.
because no abraham lincolns war was not popular.
George washington not only had to fight britian but sometimes had to fight with his own generals and congress.

the list goes on of unpopular things they did, but knew had to be done.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

then you are ignoring most of history that or you don't know.
because no abraham lincolns war was not popular.
George washington not only had to fight britian but sometimes had to fight with his own generals and congress.

the list goes on of unpopular things they did, but knew had to be done.

Sure, but you're cherry picking.

Washington was a terrible general, if it weren't for the French, we likely would have lost

Lincoln did was anyone in his position would do.
Popular or not.

 

[eohrnberger]

You're right about that, no doubt.

The trajectory of this country's policies needs to be changed. We are already much too fascist in those policies. If Bernie were POTUS the trajectory could be changed to favor the people more than favoring corporations.

Yes, I identify with the LP, and support it and vote for it, but we need Bernie's suggestions more than we need the LP, if the opportunity presents.

Methinks that you are trading one set of fascist policies for another set of fascist policies, this time further left leaning. Not sure if that's the best way to go on this one.

 

[gdgyva]

my definition of a leader

someone you WANT to follow

the political process weeds out anyone who doesnt conform to the two party system....so any real leaders today are swept aside before they even get going

money control politics....and politics controls who will and wont be nominated for seats opening up

people with spirit, who might have their own thoughts and reasoning, are set aside for someone who will follow the party line

so do we have leadership in Washington....i dont really see any

will we? can we? i guess that is the million dollar question.....

ask yourselves this....do you want to follow any of the top two on either side right now?

that would be Hillary, Bernie, Trump, and Carson

I wouldnt follow any of them to the post office....much less somewhere more important

 

[Thoreau72]

Methinks that you are trading one set of fascist policies for another set of fascist policies, this time further left leaning. Not sure if that's the best way to go on this one.

I see fascism as welfare for corporations. Though we currently have that state, I do not approve of it.

I see socialism as welfare for the people. Bernie does not advocate for fascism, he advocates for socialism.

What we have right now is pathetic. I'm ready for a bit o' change. But I know full well it's not likely to happen. The politicians will maintain the status quo, no matter their lip service.

 

[eohrnberger]

I see fascism as welfare for corporations. Though we currently have that state, I do not approve of it.

I see socialism as welfare for the people. Bernie does not advocate for fascism, he advocates for socialism.

Welfare for the people has to come from somewhere, someone is going to get stuck with the bill. Since democratic socialism uses the power of the government (the government gun to the head) from whom this payment is demanded, it is fascism of a sort, when viewed from their perspective.

What we have right now is pathetic. I'm ready for a bit o' change. But I know full well it's not likely to happen. The politicians will maintain the status quo, no matter their lip service.

If you are looking for a change this significant to occur is such a sort time span, a lot of force is going to have to be applied to make it happen.

Think of an aircraft carrier that's going to have to turn around 180 degrees in 60 seconds. There's going to have to be a lot of force applied, a vector, to make that happen. Society has it's own form of inertia as well. Big changes take long periods of time. Yes, there's the occasional exception, but far more often than not, it's going to take quite a bit of time.

Of course, should the US change over to a Democratic Socialist country, we can expect similar performance, over all, as the examples of such in the EU.

Extremely high cost of living. High taxation to pay for the nanny state and the give away programs. Lethargic business and economic responses to changes in market conditions, an exorbitant cost of government bureaucracy, and all the rest. In short, the US and it's historical dynamism won't be anymore. We will have become Europe.

If the jobs are fleeing the US due to an already high cost of labor, what's going to happen when that labor costs goes even higher?
In the EU, it's the strong unions. Are the US unions up to the task? I'm thinking not, and I'm also thinking that they aren't honest enough to play that role either.

 

[DDD]

why? what did he do exactly that was of anything note worthy?
not saying that he was bad but he definitely doesn't get on the list with those people.

there is a difference between ok good and great.

Well, he helped millions of people for one, diverted a potential way that might have lead to WW3, helped with peace in Ireland, as well as other domestic issues that some of you should remember and declare here rather than me.

 

[ludin]

Well, he helped millions of people for one, diverted a potential way that might have lead to WW3, helped with peace in Ireland, as well as other domestic issues that some of you should remember and declare here rather than me.

lol WW3 ok no Clinton doesn't go on the list for making up stuff. he was ok maybe good but he was not great.

 

[DDD]

lol WW3 ok no Clinton doesn't go on the list for making up stuff. he was ok maybe good but he was not great.

Preventing WW3 makes people great.

 

[Thoreau72]

Welfare for the people has to come from somewhere, someone is going to get stuck with the bill. Since democratic socialism uses the power of the government (the government gun to the head) from whom this payment is demanded, it is fascism of a sort, when viewed from their perspective.



If you are looking for a change this significant to occur is such a sort time span, a lot of force is going to have to be applied to make it happen.

Think of an aircraft carrier that's going to have to turn around 180 degrees in 60 seconds. There's going to have to be a lot of force applied, a vector, to make that happen. Society has it's own form of inertia as well. Big changes take long periods of time. Yes, there's the occasional exception, but far more often than not, it's going to take quite a bit of time.

Of course, should the US change over to a Democratic Socialist country, we can expect similar performance, over all, as the examples of such in the EU.

Extremely high cost of living. High taxation to pay for the nanny state and the give away programs. Lethargic business and economic responses to changes in market conditions, an exorbitant cost of government bureaucracy, and all the rest. In short, the US and it's historical dynamism won't be anymore. We will have become Europe.

If the jobs are fleeing the US due to an already high cost of labor, what's going to happen when that labor costs goes even higher?
In the EU, it's the strong unions. Are the US unions up to the task? I'm thinking not, and I'm also thinking that they aren't honest enough to play that role either.

I agree with most of what you say.

Regarding the fascism/socialism issue, the funding for each or both comes from the public treasury. The government is absolutely legitimate in its taxing power. How those collected funds are spent is what makes the difference between the 2 systems.

With socialism, the funds in the treasury are spent to some degree or other on the people.

With fascism, the funds are spent on corporate interests such as TARP and the GWOT.

 

[eohrnberger]

I agree with most of what you say.

Regarding the fascism/socialism issue, the funding for each or both comes from the public treasury. The government is absolutely legitimate in its taxing power. How those collected funds are spent is what makes the difference between the 2 systems.

With socialism, the funds in the treasury are spent to some degree or other on the people.

With fascism, the funds are spent on corporate interests such as TARP and the GWOT.

The government is legitimate in its taxing power. Per the constitution, it has a few things that it is authorized to spend for. Anything in excess needs to be shed, and returned to the people from which it was collected as taxes.

No so sure about fascism spending on corporate interests such as TARP etc. If we look at this history of fascism, the repeating behavior seems to be to up arm, and go attack someone external to the country in the name of nationalism as well as incarcerating that part of the citizenry that doesn't support them. We see this in Germany, Italy, Japan in the pre-WW II years.

 

[Thoreau72]

The government is legitimate in its taxing power. Per the constitution, it has a few things that it is authorized to spend for. Anything in excess needs to be shed, and returned to the people from which it was collected as taxes.

No so sure about fascism spending on corporate interests such as TARP etc. If we look at this history of fascism, the repeating behavior seems to be to up arm, and go attack someone external to the country in the name of nationalism as well as incarcerating that part of the citizenry that doesn't support them. We see this in Germany, Italy, Japan in the pre-WW II years.

Yes, and we see this in present day US of A. Sad to report. I threw away my rose-colored glasses years ago.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Politicians by nature are followers (they say what the polls indicate will generate the most votes) thus we are fortunate to get any decent leaders out of that group of professional followers.