When does "life" begin

[Monk-Eye]

Friendly Fire

"Friendly Fire"

"Context"​

Australianlibertarian claimed that the right to life does not exist. Not for fetuses and not for you or me. He made a blanket statement which I have proven false.
Only by accepting the fact that the right to life exists could you argue that it applies only to the born, so apparently you agree with me.

He used the term fundamental right, and by his arguments, one could suppose he meant to argue that unalienable or inalienable rights do not exist.

You related that the right to life exists as a real construct within the institution of legal rights, it does exist.

I thought you were arguing that the right to life was based on inalienable rights.

:violin:

 

[Felicity]

Because the UVVA doesn't have jack squat to do with the abortion debate. :doh

It is a federal act that defines the unborn as human beings and is a legal precedent establishing fetal rights. Umm...I think that is relevant to the abortion debate.

 

[jallman]

It is a federal act that defines the unborn as human beings and is a legal precedent establishing fetal rights. Umm...I think that is relevant to the abortion debate.

Only because you are forcing a relationship between a criminal act and a valid medical choice. The difference is that the victimhood of the "unborn" is tied directly to the victimhood of the woman under the UVVA. There is no establishment of fetal rights beyond those conferred by the woman. This was everyone's opposition to it in the first place...it's a great law until pro-life militants try to twist it into something it isn't. Of course, anything to further a baseless position...:roll:

 

[Navy Pride]

This presumes one wants an abortion, rather than wanting the freedom to be so selfish, which is the actual position these people you seek to demonize hold.

One is the same and some day you people that advocate butchering the innocent in the womb will answer to your maker for those horrendous beliefs my left wing friend........

 

[Navy Pride]

Re: Suffering

"Suffering"
Boo hoo. Go kill a dolphin and listen to it scream.

Shame on you for trivulizing the butcher of innocent defenseless babies in the womb.....

 

[Monk-Eye]

Offenses Against The Person

"Offenses Against The Person"

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

It is a federal act that defines the unborn as human beings and is a legal precedent establishing fetal rights. Umm...I think that is relevant to the abortion debate.

The statute is an addendum to maternal rights. Thus a challenged to the statute on appeal from a murder case, with a pleading that a separate murder could not have occurred, would not have a of basis of fact to overturn the statute, conviction, or sentence. It is not a law of fetal rights. It is an extension of social and judicial address for purposely heinous, violent, egregious acts against a maternal person.

 

[Felicity]

Only because you are forcing a relationship between a criminal act and a valid medical choice. The difference is that the victimhood of the "unborn" is tied directly to the victimhood of the woman under the UVVA. There is no establishment of fetal rights beyond those conferred by the woman. This was everyone's opposition to it in the first place...it's a great law until pro-life militants try to twist it into something it isn't. Of course, anything to further a baseless position...:roll:

How do you figure? It is specific to the fetus--NOT the woman at all.:roll:

Here...why don't you point it out to me without you doing some strange verbal gymnastics.
Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

Also--If I'm so far off with this, why are PCers so scared of what may come as a result of this piece of legislation?

 

[talloulou]

Re: Suffering

"Suffering"
Boo hoo. Go kill a dolphin and listen to it scream.

Since when is dolphin killing funny! I'll have you know dolphins are unquestionably sentient!

 

[jallman]

How do you figure? It is specific to the fetus--NOT the woman at all.:roll:

Here...why don't you point it out to me without you doing some strange verbal gymnastics.
Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

Also--If I'm so far off with this, why are PCers so scared of what may come as a result of this piece of legislation?

No one is scared of anything. We just get sick of having to cater to a bunch of emotional appeals and caterwauling about issues that are simply not relevant.

And you can accuse me of doing some "strange verbal gymnastics" all you want, but at the end of the day, you are the one showing your lack of control over the language of your own debate. "Individual entity". anyone? :doh

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[talloulou]

]

Also--If I'm so far off with this, why are PCers so scared of what may come as a result of this piece of legislation?

Because it takes one down a certain logical path of reasoning and that's rationale they want no part of.

 

[talloulou]

No one is scared of anything. We just get sick of having to cater to a bunch of emotional appeals and caterwauling about issues that are simply not relevant.

And you can accuse me of doing some "strange verbal gymnastics" all you want, but at the end of the day, you are the one showing your lack of control over the language of your own debate. "Individual entity". anyone? :doh

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!1

What's wrong with emotional appeals? Obviously you don't want emotions that are out of control but that doesn't mean "emotions" themselves are trivial or should be ignored all or even most of the time.

 

[Felicity]

No one is scared of anything. We just get sick of having to cater to a bunch of emotional appeals and caterwauling about issues that are simply not relevant.

And you can accuse me of doing some "strange verbal gymnastics" all you want, but at the end of the day, you are the one showing your lack of control over the language of your own debate. "Individual entity". anyone? :doh

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!1

A zygote is an individual entity...what's your issue with that anyway--you keep bringing it up and I only said it that way to appease your weird word war--to me it's a human being...when I was pregnant, I called it my baby.

 

[Felicity]

Re: Offenses Against The Person

:yt Yeah...and abortion is an offense against the unborn person!

"Offenses Against The Person"

The statute is an addendum to maternal rights. Thus a challenged to the statute on appeal from a murder case, with a pleading that a separate murder could not have occurred, would not have a of basis of fact to overturn the statute, conviction, or sentence. It is not a law of fetal rights. It is an extension of social and judicial address for purposely heinous, violent, egregious acts against a maternal person.

Its a freestanding act all on its own--not an addendum at all. A mother doesn't have to die for UBVV to be appropriate.




Fetal Personhood/Unborn Victims Legislation

The Bill Recognizes a Fertilized Egg, Embryo and Fetus as Crime "Victims" Independent of the Pregnant Woman

....
The Bill is Part of a Concerted Campaign to Redefine Personhood and Undermine Roe v. Wade

 

[jallman]

A zygote is an individual entity...what's your issue with that anyway--you keep bringing it up and I only said it that way to appease your weird word war--to me it's a human being...when I was pregnant, I called it my baby.

What you called it is irrelevant when determining what the legal code calls it.

 

[Felicity]

What you called it is irrelevant when determining what the legal code calls it.

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

`(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child, that person shall instead of being punished under subparagraph (A), be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113 of this title for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being.
`(d) As used in this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'.

 

[talloulou]

Re: Offenses Against The Person

Its a freestanding act all on its own--not an addendum at all. A mother doesn't have to die for UBVV to be appropriate.




Fetal Personhood/Unborn Victims Legislation

The Bill Recognizes a Fertilized Egg, Embryo and Fetus as Crime "Victims" Independent of the Pregnant Woman

....
The Bill is Part of a Concerted Campaign to Redefine Personhood and Undermine Roe v. Wade

Well to be fair it would be pretty hard to kill an unborn fetus without damaging the mother unless you're a qualified abortionist. :mrgreen: I'm thinking though that even if the fetus were killed by a highly trained professional and the mother suffered no damage she still had her "property" taken away. Apparently even though the unborn represent living humans they are "property" and unless law changes they will continue to be treated as such.

Did you ever see the Chris Rock special where he tells men to NEVER even suggest abortion because if the woman chooses to have the baby when the kid is 10 and knows you suggested abortion when his mother was pregnant the kid will more than likely tell you the f-uck off and be fully outraged. :mrgreen:

 

[Felicity]

Re: Offenses Against The Person

Well to be fair it would be pretty hard to kill an unborn fetus without damaging the mother unless you're a qualified abortionist. :mrgreen: I'm thinking though that even if the fetus were killed by a highly trained professional and the mother suffered no damage she still had her "property" taken away. Apparently even though the unborn represent living humans they are "property" and unless law changes they will continue to be treated as such.

Sure. That's true--but really irrelevant legally. Charges do not HAVE to be brought on behalf of the mother to charge under Laci & COnner's Law

Did you ever see the Chris Rock special where he tells men to NEVER even suggest abortion because if the woman chooses to have the baby when the kid is 10 and knows you suggested abortion when his mother was pregnant the kid will more than likely tell you the f-uck off and be fully outraged. :mrgreen:

Never saw it, but totally on the money--fully outraged and legitimately so!

 

[jallman]

Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 -- Laci and Conner's Law

`(C) If the person engaging in the conduct thereby intentionally kills or attempts to kill the unborn child, that person shall instead of being punished under subparagraph (A), be punished as provided under sections 1111, 1112, and 1113 of this title for intentionally killing or attempting to kill a human being.
`(d) As used in this section, the term `unborn child' means a child in utero, and the term `child in utero' or `child, who is in utero' means a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.'.

And? ............................................

 

[Felicity]

And? ............................................

and what? The legal code calls it a human being, a child, a member of the species homo sapien...what is your point?

 

[talloulou]

And? ............................................

Being hot is not an excuse to play dumb!

 

[jallman]

and what? The legal code calls it a human being, a child, a member of the species homo sapien...what is your point?

I still see nowhere in this clause that establishes the fetus as a person. Therefore, talloullou put it best, the victimhood of the fetus is tied directly to the victimhood of the mother through her rights of ownership. Nothing verbally gymnastic about that...

 

[talloulou]

I still see nowhere in this clause that establishes the fetus as a person. Therefore, talloullou put it best, the victimhood of the fetus is tied directly to the victimhood of the mother through her rights of ownership. Nothing verbally gymnastic about that...

Yes it is all about ownership. Similar to when slave owners could give slaves papers that made them "free." When will the unborn be saved from violent deaths at the hand of their own mothers? When enough people say enough and the laws are changed to reflect humanities idealistic view that humans should be treated equally.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Criminal Intent

"Criminal Intent"

:yt Yeah...and abortion is an offense against the
unborn person!
Its a freestanding act all on its own--not an addendum at all. A mother doesn't have to die for UBVV to be appropriate.

The offense requires a willful act against a mother which is known to be pregnant; therefore steer clear of all fat woman? :wink:

The statute does not include prosecution for manslaughter where the victim is not known to be pregnant.
Therefore the statute clearly does not recognize a fetus as an autonomous entity.
And there is a legal byline protecting the medical practitioner and the mother's voluntary choice to terminate the pregnancy.

A legal case could not be forwarded that an abortion practitioner or a mother optioning abortion was guilty under another statute as if the Roe V Wade or the 14th amendment did not exist.

Fetal Personhood/Unborn Victims Legislation
The Bill Recognizes a Fertilized Egg, Embryo and Fetus as Crime "Victims" Independent of the Pregnant Woman
....
The Bill is Part of a Concerted Campaign to Redefine Personhood and Undermine Roe v. Wade

Firstly, stop taking quotes from articles out of context.

Secondly, if a person knew that the woman was pregnant, such as a spouse or relative (the source of most violence), then the law applies.

Thirdly, the centers for reproductive freedom beats a loud hollow drum and feeds off the gullible. They want to appear intimidating and larger than they actually are (such as you are doing) and, they want money to fund their time share business. :spin:

 

[Monk-Eye]

Fear

"Fear"

Since when is dolphin killing funny! I'll have you know dolphins are unquestionably sentient!

It was not meant to be funny.
Sentience and universal suffrage are key elements in the pro-choice position.
Viability and sentience within the human fetus potentially begins to exist after the end of the second trimester. Prior to which, with exception of the critical medical procedures, almost all abortions are complete.

Thus, the dolphin retort was meant to state a pro-choice position, that self exception for a lesser offense is hypocrisy.

 

[dottedmint]

Re: Goals, Lines, And Scoring Of Points

Prior to birth, the quality of life has the value of dependence, the right to life therefore has dependence, and one is not a citizen.
At birth, the quality of life has the value of autonomy, the right of life inherits that autonomy, and one is a citizen.

Except that even after birth there is a "value of dependence".

A newborn baby is dependent on others to survive.

Using your logic this would somehow limit it's citizenship.