When does "life" begin

[dottedmint]

Characteristic of Life: Comments in case of humans:

Eating
Movement
Reproduction
Breathing
Growing
Waste (excretion)
Secretion
Circulation

Would the characteristics of life for a frog be...

long legs
hopping for movement
long sticky tongue
breathes air


I'm sure there are more but that would be a good start.

Does this mean that a tadpole isn't somehow the same animal?

It is attached to the pregnant woman, dependent upon that attachment, so for all practical purposes, it is a "part" of the woman.

It is genetically different from the mother. It is not "part" of the mother.
When a parasite attaches to a host it is attached to the host but is NOT "part" of the host.

"Both sperm and eggs are human life, they are human (what else could they be, dog or cat?), and they are alive (if they were dead, they couldn't combine to create more life)."

Neither one is genetically "complete".
Neither one has the ability to grow into an adult without being joined together.

Obviously they are human (just as much as a bit of skin) but neither have the ability to grow into a baby.

It doesn't have the ability to grow into anything without the assistance of a woman...and if she doesn't want to assist, it's her choice.

There are many organisms that require the "assistance" of others and they are no less life.

 

[Cremaster77]

Characteristic of Life: Comments in case of humans:

Eating
Movement
Reproduction
Breathing
Growing
Waste (excretion)
Secretion
Circulation

This is the most made up list of what biologically defines a human that I have ever seen. Many humans are unable to eat and are sustained artificially through percutaneous or parenteral nutrition. Are they not humans? Many people are unable to spontaneously move but have active minds. Are they not humans? Many people are unable to reproduce. Are they not humans? Many people are no longer growing. Are they not humans?

Both sperm and eggs are human life, they are human (what else could they be, dog or cat?), and they are alive (if they were dead, they couldn't combine to create more life).

You've made this statement repeatedly. You purposely try to confuse live human cells with human life. As a cellular biologic organism, in it's environment, neither the sperm or the egg contain the appropriate genetic complement of a human or the ability to progress through human development until they are combined. Live human cells and human life and two completely different things. The fact that you cannot see this difference speaks volumes.

 

[talloulou]

You've made this statement repeatedly. You purposely try to confuse live human cells with human life. As a cellular biologic organism, in it's environment, neither the sperm or the egg contain the appropriate genetic complement of a human or the ability to progress through human development until they are combined. Live human cells and human life and two completely different things. The fact that you cannot see this difference speaks volumes.

And sperm and unfertilized eggs are not actually biologically organisms. Neither are totipotent and can't fairly be compared to a human embryo.

 

[jallman]

Live human cells and human life and two completely different things. The fact that you cannot see this difference speaks volumes.

The problem comes in the pro-life comparative assertion that a live human cell equates to human life. The issue isn't even human life--it is personhood.

An acorn is not a tree.

 

[Felicity]

An acorn is not a tree.

Given the soil, water, sun, and time it is. It is directly comparable to the totipotent cell.

 

[jallman]

Given the soil, water, sun, and time it is. It is directly comparable to the totipotent cell.

But it is still not a tree. We aren't talking about what it will become given x, y, and z. We are talking about what it is. An acorn is not a tree.

 

[Felicity]

But it is still not a tree. We aren't talking about what it will become given x, y, and z. We are talking about what it is. An acorn is not a tree.

A sapling isn't a "tree" either, it's a stage of development of the biological thing.

A teenager is not an adult, either--but they are both human beings.

IOW

sapling is to tree, as teenager is to adult.
Likewise, acorn is to tree, as zygote is to adult.

Oak is to tree species as race is to human species.

 

[jallman]

But it is an OAK species. A sapling isn't a "tree" either, it's a stage of development of the biological thing.

A teenager is not an adult, either--but they are both human beings.

IOW

sapling is to tree, as teenager is to adult.
Likewise, acorn is to tree, as zygote is to adult.

Oak is to tree species as race is to human species.

And likewise, an acorn does not carry the same worth as a tree just as a zygote does not carry the same worth as a baby.

 

[Felicity]

And likewise, an acorn does not carry the same worth as a tree just as a zygote does not carry the same worth as a baby.

I'm not sure Pinnochio would think so.

(cough...value judgement...cough):mrgreen:

 

[jallman]

I'm not sure Pinnochio would think so.

(cough...value judgement...cough):mrgreen:

Value judgments are a fact of life. I didn't make the world this way, I am just pointing it out.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Given the soil, water, sun, and time it is. It is directly comparable to the totipotent cell.

And given the right conditions, every cell on my body is a potential human life. The potential of a cell is a moot point, with modern technology.

 

[Felicity]

And given the right conditions, every cell on my body is a potential human life. The potential of a cell is a moot point, with modern technology.

No so. That's simply false. jallman can explain--we went around that "tree" for a while... know "totipotent."

 

[Cremaster77]

The problem comes in the pro-life comparative assertion that a live human cell equates to human life. The issue isn't even human life--it is personhood.

An acorn is not a tree.

Nor is a newborn baby the same as an adult. In fact, biologically, a newborn baby is very different from an adult, yet we value the life of both. The definition of human life is a defined biologic point. The definition of personhood is arbitrary and used for political purposes. Arguing that an acorn is not a tree and therefore a fetus is disposable is the same as arguing that an infant is disposable.

 

[jallman]

Nor is a newborn baby the same as an adult. In fact, biologically, a newborn baby is very different from an adult, yet we value the life of both. The definition of human life is a defined biologic point. The definition of personhood is arbitrary and used for political purposes. Arguing that an acorn is not a tree and therefore a fetus is disposable is the same as arguing that an infant is disposable.

It is not about whether the fetus is disposable or not. It is about the right of the woman to allocate her bodily resources according to her wishes. This right, certainly, cannot infringe upon another's right to life and so we must define a point where that right exists and where it does not. This is why personhood becomes a central issue to the debate and, in my opinion, it is not an arbitrary designation but rather a clearly defined point at which there is capacity for all the traits of individual entity (felicity, I can't thank you enough for that appropriate designator). That point is the connection of the thalamus to the cortex...the point at which awareness and cognition spark. When the phrase "I think, therefore I am" can apply to the fetus, then by all means, its right to life certainly trumps the woman's right to choose.

 

[Navy Pride]

I believe with my whole heart and soul that life begins at conception.........If I am wrong then its no big deal......just some harmless tissue being destroyed by abortion butcher doctors but if I am right then its legalized murder in the womb..............

 

[Cremaster77]

It is not about whether the fetus is disposable or not. It is about the right of the woman to allocate her bodily resources according to her wishes. This right, certainly, cannot infringe upon another's right to life and so we must define a point where that right exists and where it does not. This is why personhood becomes a central issue to the debate and, in my opinion, it is not an arbitrary designation but rather a clearly defined point at which there is capacity for all the traits of individual entity (felicity, I can't thank you enough for that appropriate designator). That point is the connection of the thalamus to the cortex...the point at which awareness and cognition spark. When the phrase "I think, therefore I am" can apply to the fetus, then by all means, its right to life certainly trumps the woman's right to choose.

Then say so and stop making the acorn is not a tree arguments. If you want to argue whose rights should be protected by law, that's one thing, but to argue that abortions are okay because a fetus is not the same as a human is a losing argument. You did not argue that it's wrong to eat an acorn because it infringes on the tree. You argued that it is okay to abort a fetus because a fetus is not an adult person just like an acorn is not a tree.

 

[jallman]

Then say so and stop making the acorn is not a tree arguments. If you want to argue whose rights should be protected by law, that's one thing, but to argue that abortions are okay because a fetus is not the same as a human is a losing argument. You did not argue that it's wrong to eat an acorn because it infringes on the tree. You argued that it is okay to abort a fetus because a fetus is not an adult person just like an acorn is not a tree.

I believe I did "say so", which is what you responded to. However, because I introduced a secondary progression of the argument there is no automatic exclusion of the first premise. An acorn is still not a tree and a ZEF is still not a baby. I didn't make the world this way, I am merely pointing out what is so obvious to anyone who is giving the issue any honest thought.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

No so. That's simply false. jallman can explain--we went around that "tree" for a while... know "totipotent."

Jallman can explain that it is false that any cell in my body is a potential human life? I'm all ears...

How is human cloning not only a potential science, but how is it not inevitable that we will be able to do this Jallman? (Since Felicity is your Keeper)

 

[OKgrannie]

I believe with my whole heart and soul that life begins at conception.........If I am wrong then its no big deal......just some harmless tissue being destroyed by abortion butcher doctors but if I am right then its legalized murder in the womb..............

It's a VERY BIG DEAL to a pregnant woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, doesn't want to endure childbirth, and doesn't want a child. I can see why it wouldn't be a big deal to YOU. You will never miss a night's sleep or a day's work because of ANY of the numerous complications of pregnancy, please see below. BTW, the term "legalized murder" is an oxymoron.



THE EFFECTS OF PREGNANCY - complications of pregnancy

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
heartburn and indigestion
constipation
weight gain
dizziness and light-headedness
bloating, swelling, fluid retention
hemmorhoids
abdominal cramps
yeast infections
congested, bloody nose
acne and mild skin disorders
skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
mild to severe backache and strain
increased headaches
difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
increased urination and incontinence
bleeding gums
pica
breast pain and discharge
swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
inability to take regular medications
shortness of breath
higher blood pressure
hair loss
tendency to anemia
curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and
are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
extreme pain on delivery
hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women)
loose skin
permanent weight gain or redistribution
abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
changes to breasts
varicose veins
scarring from episiotomy or c-section
other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

 

[Navy Pride]

It's a VERY BIG DEAL to a pregnant woman who doesn't want to be pregnant, doesn't want to endure childbirth, and doesn't want a child. I can see why it wouldn't be a big deal to YOU. You will never miss a night's sleep or a day's work because of ANY of the numerous complications of pregnancy, please see below. BTW, the term "legalized murder" is an oxymoron.



THE EFFECTS OF PREGNANCY - complications of pregnancy

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
heartburn and indigestion
constipation
weight gain
dizziness and light-headedness
bloating, swelling, fluid retention
hemmorhoids
abdominal cramps
yeast infections
congested, bloody nose
acne and mild skin disorders
skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
mild to severe backache and strain
increased headaches
difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
increased urination and incontinence
bleeding gums
pica
breast pain and discharge
swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
inability to take regular medications
shortness of breath
higher blood pressure
hair loss
tendency to anemia
curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and
are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
extreme pain on delivery
hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)
Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women)
loose skin
permanent weight gain or redistribution
abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
changes to breasts
varicose veins
scarring from episiotomy or c-section
other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

She should have thought about that before she spread her legs and had unprotected sex...........Who speaks for the innocent defenseless baby in the womb? Surely not you and your butcher in the womb friends.......

 

[Spartacus FPV]

She should have thought about that before she spread her legs and had unprotected sex...........Who speaks for the innocent defenseless baby in the womb? Surely not you and your butcher in the womb friends.......

:roll: Because all pregnancies occur as the result of unprotected promiscuity. People who speak in absolutes are often absolute *******s, myself included.

 

[talloulou]

An acorn is not a tree.

True but we value big ol' grand trees because they're big, beautiful, and majestic. Humans we are "supposed" to value or at the very least respect enough that we don't go around killing one another willy nilly like on the basis that they are human. The unborn are human. If we judged human life on intelligence, age, IQ, ect. and we killed accordingly then the argument might be valid. But we don't do that. We respect other humans enough not to kill them
regardless of age, IQ, financial worth ect. because humanity has evolved to the point where most of us recognize that no one human should judge the value, worthiness, or right to life of another human.

 

[Edify_Always_In_All_Ways]

I believe with my whole heart and soul that life begins at conception.........If I am wrong then its no big deal......just some harmless tissue being destroyed by abortion butcher doctors but if I am right then its legalized murder in the womb..............

I believe with my whole heart and soul that aliens are coming to kill us all.........If I am wrong then its no big deal......just some harmless and healthy military defense spending but if I am right then I will be the savior of our planet!

She should have thought about that before she spread her legs and had unprotected sex...........Who speaks for the innocent defenseless baby in the womb? Surely not you and your butcher in the womb friends.......

Maybe you should have thought before you posted that... things go wrong, condoms break, fetuses are diagnosed as vegetables with Down Syndrome, women are raped, etc. Who speaks for the swollen, defenseless woman on the street? Surely not you and your mysogynistic friends...

People really #### me off sometimes...:2brickwal

 

[Navy Pride]

:roll: Because all pregnancies occur as the result of unprotected promiscuity. People who speak in absolutes are often absolute *******s, myself included.

That is the ones I am talking about.......No one is complaining about and abortion where the mother's life is endnagered...That is a given......I am talking about abortions for convenience and as a means of birth control......What part of that do you not understand?????????

 

[Navy Pride]

I believe with my whole heart and soul that aliens are coming to kill us all.........If I am wrong then its no big deal......just some harmless and healthy military defense spending but if I am right then I will be the savior of our planet!



Maybe you should have thought before you posted that... things go wrong, condoms break, fetuses are diagnosed as vegetables with Down Syndrome, women are raped, etc. Who speaks for the swollen, defenseless woman on the street? Surely not you and your mysogynistic friends...

People really #### me off sometimes...:2brickwal

So what the hell.Just kill the ****ing kid............He or she is not worth anything. That is the answer...........40,000,000 since 1972........****ing disgusting..........:roll: