When Carrying Goes Wrong

[Absentglare]

Making CCW illegal or banning it from your building has no effect on illegal carry, because... surprise... felons and terrorists with ill intent don't obey the law... and they're the ones that should mostly worry you, not us.

I'm not arguing that we should outlaw CCW. I'm saying that we should not encourage laypeople to arm themselves for safety.

 

[Absentglare]

On the contrary, barring the rare poor decision, most shootings are perpetrated by criminals in the process of committing a criminal act. Even the domestic disputes that result in a shooting usually involve criminals.

All crimes are committed by criminals in nature of the definitions of the words. That logic is perfectly circular and therefore entirely redundant.

 

[Rucker61]

I'm not arguing that we should outlaw CCW. I'm saying that we should not encourage laypeople to arm themselves for safety.

We don't have to encourage them. They're self motivated.

 

[Absentglare]

We don't have to encourage them. They're self motivated.

Some people do encourage them, and my argument is that it is irresponsible to suggest that.

 

[Lutherf]

I'm not arguing that we should outlaw CCW. I'm saying that we should not encourage laypeople to arm themselves for safety.

That's kind of silly. If you happen to be engaged by a criminal there is a good chance that he will be armed. Maybe you can run away. Maybe you can call for help. Maybe you can't do either of those things and then you just suffer whatever consequences the criminal has in mind for you. If you're armed, however, you at least have the opportunity to meet force with force.

How comfortable would you be with your wife or daughter getting raped in an alley as you're staring at your phone and waiting for the cops to show up?

 

[Rucker61]

Some people do encourage them, and my argument is that it is irresponsible to suggest that.

Why is it irresponsible to suggest that people get CCW licenses?

 

[TurtleDude]

Why is it irresponsible to suggest that people get CCW licenses?

To suggest to do so is irresponsible is one of the most stupid things (and that is fierce competition) I have seen on this gun forum. I tell shooters to get CCWs all the time EVEN IF THEY DON'T PLAN ON CARRYING. if you are pulled over and you have forgotten to unload your magazine of your gun, having a CCW usually will negate getting charged with improper transport. You tell the cop you have a CCW, he's going to be far less edgy or overly "inquisitive" if you have guns in your car.

 

[calamity]

really-most states have had shall carry laws around for at least a DECADE and there is no evidence of such shootings increasing even though the number of citizens legally carrying has increased dramatically in the last ten years

I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion. You know, given that we have over 15,000 gun homicides per year, many of which are the result of A feeling he was "dissed" by B.

 

[calamity]

Plenty of times have I seen people start fights with folks they obviously shouldn't. Stupid is as stupid does. A gun doesn;t make a person any more or less stupid.

The facts are what they are Calamity. If carrying a gun made you more likely to "think you are 10 feet tall" and more likely to be aggressive.. then Concealed weapons permit holders would be the most dangerous demographic. but studies show they are the most law abiding.

Sorry.. but now you are ignoring facts and operating on pure conjecture and emotion.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm looking at a specific case here where some simple road rage escalated to manslaughter in a matter of seconds.

And, I'm not sure about your stats claim. Are you saying George Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon Martin if he didn't have a gun? Would Cardell Hayes, someone without a drop of alcohol in his system, have challenged Will Smith without one? Come on. Be real here.

 

[calamity]

Ok so you are for some people to carry a gun. But also say it is human nature to he bolder if you do have a gun. How do you know the victim above would not have been bolder knowing he had a gun a reacted with deadly force?


How do you determine who is going to Be an ass with a gun? Or should we deny people to carry unless the prove not to be an ass.

I'm not trying to judge or be pro or anti gun. I'm only pointing out a simple truth--if you have a gun, a simple confrontation can become deadly in a hurry, and you may find yourself facing 40 years in prison because you made a quick poor decision.

 

[Rucker61]

Maybe, maybe not. I'm looking at a specific case here where some simple road rage escalated to manslaughter in a matter of seconds.

Do we base laws on a single instance? The shooter committed a crime and will be prosecuted for it.

And, I'm not sure about your stats claim. Are you saying George Zimmerman would have followed Trayvon Martin if he didn't have a gun?

We'd need more statistics on whether neighborhood watch members follow strange people in their neighborhoods without guns?

Would Cardell Hayes, someone without a drop of alcohol in his system, have challenged Will Smith without one? Come on. Be real here.

Fistfights between unequal people are not uncommon, especially in a rage fueled situation. We have no idea what would have happened without a gun, and it's a question only useful in hindsight.

 

[calamity]

It does not take a gun for a simple confrontation to turn deadly or for someone to face jail time for their poor decision making. The gun is not the problem. It is stupid people with poor self controll.

Sure. But having the gun helps turn it more deadly much faster.

A domestic squabble could result in a black eye or a few broken dishes, or maybe a slice from a kitchen knife, if one is so inclined. Add a gun, and it can end real fast in a case of homicide.

A road rage situation would devolve even faster, if the right combination of hot heads meet up.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion. You know, given that we have over 15,000 gun homicides per year, many of which are the result of A feeling he was "dissed" by B.

80% or more of gun homicides that are contrary to law are perpetrated by those who could not legally possess the firearm at the time of the shooting. we do know that firearm related deaths are decreasing. most firearms deaths that are not suicides are drug trafficking related.

 

[TurtleDude]

Sure. But having the gun helps turn it more deadly much faster.

A domestic squabble could result in a black eye or a few broken dishes, or maybe a slice from a kitchen knife, if one is so inclined. Add a gun, and it can end real fast in a case of homicide.

A road rage situation would devolve even faster, if the right combination of hot heads meet up.

except those who opposed to the liberalization of CCW permits claimed that road rage would cause the streets to run in blood. At first their hysterical predictions were just wrong. Later on, their claims were complete lies as the Brady bunch and other anti gun groups had lots of information to the contrary and kept claiming all sorts of gun fights would take place. They didn't but as state after state adopted shall issue laws, the doom and gloom lies continued.

 

[Rucker61]

Sure. But having the gun helps turn it more deadly much faster.

A domestic squabble could result in a black eye or a few broken dishes, or maybe a slice from a kitchen knife, if one is so inclined. Add a gun, and it can end real fast in a case of homicide.

A road rage situation would devolve even faster, if the right combination of hot heads meet up.

By the same token, the victim of DV could protect herself and her family if she was armed; school staff could protect their students from an active shooter; ordinary citizens could protect themselves and others from thugs and drug fiends.

The "what-if" game works both ways.

 

[Chillfolks]

Sure. But having the gun helps turn it more deadly much faster.

I understand that is your opinion. However thousands of people carry every day and they do not commit any homicides. The gun is not some mythical creation that has special magical powers making folks more deadly when one is around

A domestic squabble could result in a black eye or a few broken dishes, or maybe a slice from a kitchen knife, if one is so inclined. Add a gun, and it can end real fast in a case of homicide.

Lots of things could or can happen. Having 50 guns in a house during a domestic squabble could result in not a single one being used. Add o
A broken beer bottle and sever injury can happen real fast including ending in homicide. So what's your point other than you want it to be harder for people to exercise constitutional right.

A road rage situation would devolve even faster, if the right combination of hot heads meet up.

That is your biased opinion that a gun is somehow a contributing factor. I know that when the right combination of hot heads, emotions, and life factors come together an escalation of events is going to happen with or without a gun.

 

[TurtleDude]

I understand that is your opinion. However thousands of people carry every day and they do not commit any homicides. The gun is not some mythical creation that has special magical powers making folks more deadly when one is around



Lots of things could or can happen. Having 50 guns in a house during a domestic squabble could result in not a single one being used. Add o
A broken beer bottle and sever injury can happen real fast including ending in homicide. So what's your point other than you want it to be harder for people to exercise constitutional right.




That is your biased opinion that a gun is somehow a contributing factor. I know that when the right combination of hot heads, emotions, and life factors come together an escalation of events is going to happen with or without a gun.

20 years ago there wasn't much empirical data and the anti CCW forces could speculate. Now there is plenty of evidence and anyone who claims that CCWs are likely to lead to bloodshed over road rage, etc are lying. pure and simple. There are millions upon millions of us carrying daily and gun deaths-especially by those who legally posses the firearms at the time they shoot someone else-are GOING DOWN

so those who try to argue against CCW licenses based on "doom and gloom" are just dishonest if they are basing it on facts. If they are basing it upon what could happen, then they are ignoring 20 years of data. Either way, their argument is worthless

 

[Fishking]

Well....****. That incident didnt involve firearms at all. So...obviously that means its not the same thing. Oh...wait. You know what? He probably was THINKING about guns when he decided to beat the guy to death. Yeah...thats it. He was THINKING about guns.

Studies show just thinking about a gun increases your chances of murdering someone. There is a 13% increased chance of you being a murderer after leaving the movie theater after having watched an action movie. It's science.

 

[blackjack50]

Some people do encourage them, and my argument is that it is irresponsible to suggest that.

Wait?

What?

Why?

Lay people have done a great ****in job. 168 permanent revoked in the state of Florida out of MILLIONS.


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[VanceMack]

Studies show just thinking about a gun increases your chances of murdering someone. There is a 13% increased chance of you being a murderer after leaving the movie theater after having watched an action movie. It's science.

You know, theres something to that. As a kid I always thought about big boobies. And now I'm married to a gal with...yep...big boobies.

Science ROCKS!!!

 

[Goshin]

I'm not arguing that we should outlaw CCW. I'm saying that we should not encourage laypeople to arm themselves for safety.

The two issues are related. Just a smidge.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm not arguing that we should outlaw CCW. I'm saying that we should not encourage laypeople to arm themselves for safety.

who is encouraging people and how would you prevent that? are you as hostile to the first amendment as the second?

 

[Partsguy57]

There is a reason I don't carry. And, this would be it.

Cardell Hayes found guilty of manslaughter in Will Smith shooting

It's just too easy to take a little squabble to the next level, and once it begins to escalate, staring at a 40-year prison term becomes all too much of a reality.

I bet Cardell wishes he wasn't carrying that night.

Stupid story, it's a big Country and you can always find someone that's doing something stupid. I carry and my kids know how to shoot. Three meth heads found out the hard way when they tried to rob my house and shop with a 15 year old home alone that knows how to use firearms. Two shots fired, on convicted serial molester arrested, one with a current arrest warrant out on him and one newbie with no arrest record yet. ( maybe he will think about his life of crime to come and change his mind) many thanks from the cops. You are more then welcome not to carry, I will keep and exercise might 2nd amendment right. Thank you!!!

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[TurtleDude]

Stupid story, it's a big Country and you can always find someone that's doing something stupid. I carry and my kids know how to shoot. Three meth heads found out the hard way when they tried to rob my house and shop with a 15 year old home alone that knows how to use firearms. Two shots fired, on convicted serial molester arrested, one with a current arrest warrant out on him and one newbie with no arrest record yet. ( maybe he will think about his life of crime to come and change his mind) many thanks from the cops. You are more then welcome not to carry, I will keep and exercise might 2nd amendment right. Thank you!!!

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Get the kid some more range time. two shots-two stops would have been better! but I am glad your kid came out ok

 

[Fishking]

You know, theres something to that. As a kid I always thought about big boobies. And now I'm married to a gal with...yep...big boobies.

Science ROCKS!!!

Hey! Me too! That's corroborative data points.