What's Real?

[grip]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Except that “me” isn’t constant either. The best illustration of this is how dementia or traumatic brain injury can completely change a person’s personality. That indicates that the “me” we all know so well is dependent on the physical makeup of the brain. No brain, no “me”.

 

[Angel]

Except that “me” isn’t constant either. The best illustration of this is how dementia or traumatic brain injury can completely change a person’s personality. That indicates that the “me” we all know so well is dependent on the physical makeup of the brain. No brain, no “me”.

You are privy only to your own "me," not to the "me" of others. What the "me" is in the grip of what we call dementia or the the post-traumatic "me" of others is inaccessible to outsiders.

 

[Angel]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

In order for something to change, something has to remain the same.
I think you're right on, grip. Thanks for starting such a heady thread.

 

[CLAX1911]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

I posit that we can't objectively say that anything is real. We can't objectively say this because all we have is human perception.

 

[can2man]

The way I see it. (Excuse me if I don't explain myself that well, I find the thoughts in my head don't always make into print correctly.)
Everything that comes into existence - begins to decay and break down (entropy). So yes everything is always changing.
But the process is governed by a set of laws - speed of light, gravity, can't create energy etc....and we aren't close to understanding all of these laws.
That me the OP is referring to I believe is the energy that allows us to live out our lives in these bodies - when the system has decayed too much the energy leaves. But I don't think it will be organized enough to carry memories or thoughts with it.
Life after death will be very much like it was before you were born.
But no one really knows for sure.

 

[grip]

I got the idea for this thread from the TV Show 'West World', because they were giving robots consciousness through emotional experiences, not just sheer knowledge.

 

[can2man]

I got the idea for this thread from the TV Show 'West World', because they were giving robots consciousness through emotional experiences, not just sheer knowledge.

Excellent show - long time waiting for season two.

 

[grip]

Excellent show - long time waiting for season two.

Oh dude, it's going to be epic. Especially if they delve deeper into the cause of consciousness. Show writers are very in depth and quite good at research for their story lines.

 

[OldFatGuy]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

Descartes - "I think, therefore I am."

But the only true proof of existence is time, and as the sands of time reach an end, one no longer exists.

 

[grip]

Descartes - "I think, therefore I am."

But the only true proof of existence is time, and as the sands of time reach an end, one no longer exists.

No longer exists within this continuum but what about the 'dark tunnel ending in light'? Do we travel through the end of time "darkness" to wind up at the beginning of eternity? It's a common concept for people who died briefly and came back. My mother saw it before she passed.

You'll never see Me outside your body because I Am you?

 

[OldFatGuy]

No longer exists within this continuum but what about the 'dark tunnel ending in light'? Do we travel through the end of time "darkness" to wind up at the beginning of eternity? It's a common concept for people who died briefly and came back. My mother saw it before she passed.

You'll never see Me outside your body because I Am you?

Technically I died three times. Flat lined out. Never saw a tunnel, or a light. Did see an old fat and bald naked woman, but that was after I woke the first time, and she was real. Made me want to die. Turned out to be a Divine poster for Pink Flamingos. Scientists now claim the so-called after death experiences of those they revive are a product of the brain shutting down and coming back. Your guess is as good as mine.

There's a story about a preacher healer holding a tent meeting, promising to cure the ill (after the right donation). A fellow walks in screaming, "Heal me, Heal me, please god make my arm like my other arm" which appeared all deformed and crooked. He left the tent with two deformed crooked arms, somewhat confused. He had entered the tent under pretense, nothing wrong with the arm, just another grifting carney employee who could dislocate his shoulder.

 

[grip]

Technically I died three times. Flat lined out. Never saw a tunnel, or a light. Did see an old fat and bald naked woman, but that was after I woke the first time, and she was real. Made me want to die. Turned out to be a Divine poster for Pink Flamingos. Scientists now claim the so-called after death experiences of those they revive are a product of the brain shutting down and coming back. Your guess is as good as mine.

There's a story about a preacher healer holding a tent meeting, promising to cure the ill (after the right donation). A fellow walks in screaming, "Heal me, Heal me, please god make my arm like my other arm" which appeared all deformed and crooked. He left the tent with two deformed crooked arms, somewhat confused. He had entered the tent under pretense, nothing wrong with the arm, just another grifting carney employee who could dislocate his shoulder.

I've flat lined at least 3 times or more and have never seen anything other than crazy thoughts. Then I had a few 'come to Jesus moments' with the white light and invisible mental commands. Then it was made quite clear to me that people aren't suppose to know and God hides on purpose. More than than that I will not explain, unless you're really interested?

 

[code1211]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

You have asked for debate against your position which is based on things revealed to you by your senses.

Then you restrict the debate to not include things revealed to others based on things revealed to them by their senses.

Is this fair?

 

[code1211]

Except that “me” isn’t constant either. The best illustration of this is how dementia or traumatic brain injury can completely change a person’s personality. That indicates that the “me” we all know so well is dependent on the physical makeup of the brain. No brain, no “me”.

My father was gripped by Alzheimers at his death. I'm not sure how this impacts others, but for my father it was a happy place from his life that he returned to.

It was interesting though sad for me, but he was happy.

Instead of being an 83 year old man stripped of all of his rights and saddled with reducing abilities, he was a 21 year old Bombardier in the Army Air Force in England.

In his mind, he was a young man of growing capabilities, strong, lucky and hope-filled with his whole life before him. He was looking forward to marrying my mother again and go through the whole thing again. It was both sad and hopeful in a melancholy way.

Given the option, reality or happiness, what would you prefer?

 

[OldFatGuy]

I've flat lined at least 3 times or more and have never seen anything other than crazy thoughts. Then I had a few 'come to Jesus moments' with the white light and invisible mental commands. Then it was made quite clear to me that people aren't suppose to know and God hides on purpose. More than than that I will not explain, unless you're really interested?

I'll pass. Thanks but no thanks.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

My father was gripped by Alzheimers at his death. I'm not sure how this impacts others, but for my father it was a happy place from his life that he returned to.

It was interesting though sad for me, but he was happy.

Instead of being an 83 year old man stripped of all of his rights and saddled with reducing abilities, he was a 21 year old Bombardier in the Army Air Force in England.

In his mind, he was a young man of growing capabilities, strong, lucky and hope-filled with his whole life before him. He was looking forward to marrying my mother again and go through the whole thing again. It was both sad and hopeful in a melancholy way.

Given the option, reality or happiness, what would you prefer?

That is a tough one. Generally I would prefer to live in reality even if fantasy were happier. But that is easy for me to say because I am happy with my reality. If my reality were horrible enough I may very well prefer the fantasy.

And all of this is assuming what I think is my reality is in fact my reality. I have done some powerful psychedelics in my life which caused me to question what was real. Hell, maybe my whole life is a psychedelic trip. Or maybe I am sitting in an old folks home right now with dementia. Or maybe it is the future and what I think of as my life is just a very high tech video game I am plugged into and the past 40 plus years has actually unfolded over about 30 minutes. No way to know for sure.

 

[Rexedgar]

Except that “me” isn’t constant either. The best illustration of this is how dementia or traumatic brain injury can completely change a person’s personality. That indicates that the “me” we all know so well is dependent on the physical makeup of the brain. No brain, no “me”.

Bagdad's finest didn't get the memo!

Sorry........

 

[Tim the plumber]

Life and the universe as we know it are not static or unchanging, so the only thing certain is constant change. Which begs for the question, "What is real, besides change?"

All my life my body has been changing along with my understanding. But I have a constant voice in my head that I call 'me' that does not change. It is aware of self and assimilates all experiences, external as well as internal. It grows with me as I change and makes me aware.

I postulate that ultimately we will find that all that survives the existence of the physical world will be that 'me' inside of us, with all our experiences. Philosophize why I'm wrong, beyond the obvious and unimaginative, "Because my senses tell me so" argument.

I see no evidence that this sense of I is anything other than an outcome of our brain's generation of a mind.

 

[zyzygy]

My father was gripped by Alzheimers at his death. I'm not sure how this impacts others, but for my father it was a happy place from his life that he returned to.

It was interesting though sad for me, but he was happy.

Instead of being an 83 year old man stripped of all of his rights and saddled with reducing abilities, he was a 21 year old Bombardier in the Army Air Force in England.

In his mind, he was a young man of growing capabilities, strong, lucky and hope-filled with his whole life before him. He was looking forward to marrying my mother again and go through the whole thing again. It was both sad and hopeful in a melancholy way.

Given the option, reality or happiness, what would you prefer?

My grandmother spent the last few months of her life in a hospital. She was senile. She thought that she was a duchess in a castle and that all the personnel were her servants. She was as happy as a lark.

 

[code1211]

That is a tough one. Generally I would prefer to live in reality even if fantasy were happier. But that is easy for me to say because I am happy with my reality. If my reality were horrible enough I may very well prefer the fantasy.

And all of this is assuming what I think is my reality is in fact my reality. I have done some powerful psychedelics in my life which caused me to question what was real. Hell, maybe my whole life is a psychedelic trip. Or maybe I am sitting in an old folks home right now with dementia. Or maybe it is the future and what I think of as my life is just a very high tech video game I am plugged into and the past 40 plus years has actually unfolded over about 30 minutes. No way to know for sure.

"...I dreamed i was a butterfly..."

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/255807-once-upon-a-time-i-dreamt-i-was-a-butterfly

 

[code1211]

My grandmother spent the last few months of her life in a hospital. She was senile. She thought that she was a duchess in a castle and that all the personnel were her servants. She was as happy as a lark.

I'm nearing retirement and to a great extent, every succeeding year has found me with increasing freedoms and options.

I will soon find, as my father did, that my freedoms and options will be closing to more and more narrow lanes.

When I am left with little or no power to direct my own life, perhaps a little fantasy in my life would be welcome, too.

In all honesty, I enjoy a little fantasy right now.