What's Conservative About Capitalism (2 Viewers)

[Bullseye]

yadda, yadda, yadda

The free market needs some safeguards and regulations. Not everything it leads to is holy and sacred and to be accepted without question.

Where exactly do you see anyone claiming capitalism is "holy and sacred"?

 

[Bullseye]

So you're saying if it was legal, then it's okay? Was selling opium okay when it was legal?

Until it wasn't.

 

[Bootz]

Where exactly do you see anyone claiming capitalism is "holy and sacred"?

it is far superior to serfdom and mercantilism.

 

[Bullseye]

it is far superior to serfdom and mercantilism.

Yeah, I like the old saying "capitalism is the worst economic system in the world, except for all others". It has its faults - many of them - but for improving the lives of its citizens and offering opportunities to improve themselves it has no equal.

 

[Atheist 2020]

The best way to understand conservative religion and capitalism is to study John Calvin (1509 - 1564).

 

[What if...?]

if a woman that is pretty says to an ugly man I will spend the night with you for 1000 dollars, is that exploitation? what about 10,000? what about 100,000?

if the man pays it is he being exploited?

the whole notion of exploitation is invalid. two people engaging in mutually beneficial behavior is synergy not exploitation.

How does housing fit into that?

It IS an unnatural market.

Shelter is a privelege here, but its a need, not a luxury.

 

[late]

1) Yeah, I remember her holding up a diagram of how the system would work - something only a fuzzy headed liberal professor could love.

LOL, uh huh, sure

1) Eventually, we will get something a lot like that. The health care system will have to collapse (or come close to it), but once there is enough pain, we'll do it, because it's the only sane choice.

2) "Byrd proposed an additional $10,000,000 in federal funding for the Martin Luther King Jr. National Memorial in Washington, D.C., remarking that, "With the passage of time, we have come to learn that his Dream was the American Dream, and few ever expressed it more eloquently."[71] Upon news of his death, the NAACP released a statement praising Byrd, saying that he "became a champion for civil rights and liberties" and "came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda".[72]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd#Race


The author is Black, and a smart cookie:

"But that was after Byrd's personal enlightenment. Amid what is sure to be a flood of heartfelt encomiums to his lifetime of public service, it is important to note that his is a story of change and redemption -- and that Byrd and his party had a shameful past to overcome.

Robert Byrd's amazing career reminds us that times really do change. And so do people."

Eugene Robinson - Robert Byrd: A story of change and redemption

 

[Bullseye]

1) Eventually, we will get something a lot like that. The health care system will have to collapse (or come close to it), but once there is enough pain, we'll do it, because it's the only sane choice.

2) "Byrd proposed an additional $10,000,000 in federal funding for the Martin Luther King Jr. National Memorial in Washington, D.C., remarking that, "With the passage of time, we have come to learn that his Dream was the American Dream, and few ever expressed it more eloquently."[71] Upon news of his death, the NAACP released a statement praising Byrd, saying that he "became a champion for civil rights and liberties" and "came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda".[72]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Byrd#Race


The author is Black, and a smart cookie:

"But that was after Byrd's personal enlightenment. Amid what is sure to be a flood of heartfelt encomiums to his lifetime of public service, it is important to note that his is a story of change and redemption -- and that Byrd and his party had a shameful past to overcome.

Robert Byrd's amazing career reminds us that times really do change. And so do people."

Eugene Robinson - Robert Byrd: A story of change and redemption

So, he was a politician as well as a Klansman. Fine.

 

[Bootz]

You think there's no exploitation in capitalism? Companies don't exploit the 3rd world paying laborers there less than $1 per hour?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

only in socialist countries

 

[Bootz]

How does housing fit into that?

It IS an unnatural market.

Shelter is a privelege here, but its a need, not a luxury.

then we should build smaller houses, nope, I want a big house.

 

[What if...?]

then we should build smaller houses, nope, I want a big house.

Tiny houses are anathema to the housing "market". Illegal almost everywhere. Unless you pay an apartments rent for the tiny plot of dirt it occupies.

They have us by the balls.

Shelter that doesn't cost 25% or more of your gross for your entire working.life.

 

[late]

So, he was a politician as well as a Klansman. Fine.

Conflicts end, then you rebuild. Politics is about building relationships and alliances. He worked hard to earn their vote, while Republicans are still trying to bring back Jim Crow.

If you want to get snarky, go after the current racists.

Or are you simply trying to distract us from that unsavory reality?

Hmmm?

 

[akyron]

And I totally agree with him. Farmers should get the fruits of their labor, not financiers. Perhaps you should see what the Founding Fathers thought about banks.

u·su·ry
ˈyo͞oZH(ə)rē/
noun
noun: usury

the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.
archaic
interest at unreasonably high rates.


Of course no one should force another to agree to outrageous terms. ala duress.


"In de Vitry’s world, the moneylender deserved to be defiled by demons, because he’d committed the sin of usury – charging interest on a loan. De Vitry didn’t care whether the rate was high or low, because the Church’s position was that extracting a single cent of interest was evil. The roots of this revulsion run deep, and across cultures. Vedic law in Ancient India condemned usury, and rulers routinely capped interest rates from Ancient Mesopotamia to Ancient Greece. In Politics, Aristotle described usury as ‘the birth of money from money’, and claimed it was unnatural because money was sterile and should not ‘breed’."

 

[phattonez]

Until it wasn't.

That's grotesque.

 

[phattonez]

u·su·ry
ˈyo͞oZH(ə)rē/
noun
noun: usury

the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest.
archaic
interest at unreasonably high rates.


Of course no one should force another to agree to outrageous terms. ala duress.


"In de Vitry’s world, the moneylender deserved to be defiled by demons, because he’d committed the sin of usury – charging interest on a loan. De Vitry didn’t care whether the rate was high or low, because the Church’s position was that extracting a single cent of interest was evil. The roots of this revulsion run deep, and across cultures. Vedic law in Ancient India condemned usury, and rulers routinely capped interest rates from Ancient Mesopotamia to Ancient Greece. In Politics, Aristotle described usury as ‘the birth of money from money’, and claimed it was unnatural because money was sterile and should not ‘breed’."

The idea that usury is only "unreasonably" high interest is a thoroughly modern one. Usury historically has been understood as ANY interest.

 

[Bullseye]

That's grotesque.

No, it's a good example of the evolutionary process I've been talking about. At one time, opium was an accepted product; wars were fought over it. And then social mores moved away from it.

 

[Bootz]

Tiny houses are anathema to the housing "market". Illegal almost everywhere. Unless you pay an apartments rent for the tiny plot of dirt it occupies.

They have us by the balls.

Shelter that doesn't cost 25% or more of your gross for your entire working.life.

we have a choice about that. we can pay cash

 

[ataraxia]

Where exactly do you see anyone claiming capitalism is "holy and sacred"?

So you think someone daring to question some of the consequences of the market left completely free and unregulated is OK?

 

[Bullseye]

So you think someone daring to question some of the consequences of the market left completely free and unregulated is OK?

And you think anyone has said the market should by completely free and unregulated?

 

[OscarLevant]

Really think about this for a while. Conservatism means holding to the values that your ancestors held. What part of unchecked greed and a lack of moral beliefs other than non-aggression do you think coincides with the values that your ancestors held? This fanatical love for free markets certainly isn't a value of my ancestors. Private property absolutely, but that doesn't mean the unlimited ability to do whatever you want with your property to the detriment of your neighbors.

No, conservativism, today has morphed in to libertarianism (classic liberalism) when it is convenient, authoritarianism when it is convenient, right wing populism when it is convenient or any combination of these.

The conservativism of Buckley is no more.

 

[OscarLevant]

You think there's no exploitation in capitalism? Companies don't exploit the 3rd world paying laborers there less than $1 per hour?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

One of the biggest exploiters of labor is China, with it's massive sweat shops, workings working 6 12 hour days, whose wages allow for living 8 people in a single room, etc.

 

[OscarLevant]

if a woman that is pretty says to an ugly man I will spend the night with you for 1000 dollars, is that exploitation? what about 10,000? what about 100,000?

if the man pays it is he being exploited?

the whole notion of exploitation is invalid.

False. Think about why humans felt the need to ascribe a term to a concept. Think about it.

two people engaging in mutually beneficial behavior is synergy not exploitation.

True. But the subject begs for qualification.

your logic, to me, in one respect, is correct, but in another, it reflects flawed libertarian thinking.

If a poor man with his last 1000 dollars pays a prostitute, it's not exploitation, per se, but the dude is a fool.

See, exploitation occurs when workers are paid so little they cannot live, and have few alternate choices for employment given their circumstance. It doesn't really apply to the prostitute model you present. Surely he can easily find a better deal on another block, which is usually the case.

For someone with $10,000, $100K now that person is no longer a poor man, is he?

Exploitation only has moral significance when applied to the disadvantaged, in employer/worker models in an extended fashion, not the privileged. And NOT in the single transaction mercantile model.

Where exploitation in markets does occur is with monopolies, which is why they are ( supposed to be ) illegal ( though antitrust laws these days are quite lax ).

THere might be other circumstances, as I have only given this a cursory examination.

 

[ataraxia]

And you think anyone has said the market should by completely free and unregulated?

If not, then what is this whole thread about? Conservatives love the "slipper slope" argument. Any regulation on anything is a slippery slope to Soviet style communist dictatorship, remember?

 

[Bullseye]

If not, then what is this whole thread about? Conservatives love the "slipper slope" argument. Any regulation on anything is a slippery slope to Soviet style communist dictatorship, remember?

No, actually conservatives don't believe any of that. We do believe Ronald Reagan's comment:
“It isn't so much that liberals are ignorant. It's just that they know so many things that aren't so.”

 

[phattonez]

No, conservativism, today has morphed in to libertarianism (classic liberalism) when it is convenient, authoritarianism when it is convenient, right wing populism when it is convenient or any combination of these.

The conservativism of Buckley is no more.

And that's a good thing. The conservatism of Buckley accomplished nothing.