What the EU Means to People (1 Viewer)

[LowDown]

I was forever confused about the EU and whether Brexit was a good idea or not. A few thoughts helped clarify it a bit for me:

I have long been suspicious of turning an economic union into a political union that worked to erase sovereignty. People like having sovereignty and if it's going to be removed from them, they want to have a say in it, yet decisions have been taken out of people's hands and put in the hands of unelected elites and bureaucrats. That's got to irritate a lot of people and that is what we saw last night in the Brexit vote.

...Speaking to German friends over the past several years, it’s been difficult not to come away with the sense many view the EU as an extension of Germany policy and as a respectable outlet for German nationalism that has been suppressed since the end of World War II. A new path to German greatness, if you will, camouflaged by warm and fuzzy words about “Europeaness” and immune to complaints of skeptics, all of whom immediately are labeled as right-wing extremists – the kiss of death in German politics.

On the train this morning, I listened to a left-wing British woman complaining bitterly about the stupidity of her fellow citizens. Her points were all about lost EU subsidies for construction projects and the indignity of having to use the “non-EU” line at passport control when traveling to the continent (I’ll save a spot for you!). It seemed not to have occurred to her that more abstract concepts such as democratic legitimacy, self rule, and national identity matter to people as goods in themselves....

The EU as an economic project was a good idea. But only European elites signed off on ever closer political union and de facto rule by unelected Eurocrats in Brussels. These elites weren’t interested in making their case democratically, preferring to ignore popular concerns while demonizing any opposition to their supranational project.

Immigration had a lot to do with it. But it was more than just immigration, it was the fact that Angela Merkel decided for the whole EU how many immigrants the EU would take, and the UK had no say in that. What would Merkel be telling them to do next? Kill all their Jews? Abolish the pound sterling and accept the Euro? Whatever it was to be it was sure to be in Germany's best interest and despite any reservations the UK had.

The small countries like Scotland and Ireland were in favor of staying in the EU. This was in part because they had their hands out for free stuff from the EU. Ireland got a lot of its nice rail system built with EU money. Scotland and certain parts of England were looking for some of the same. It had all been a part of a project to bring all the EU countries up to the same level, but that would have necessitated bringing the polity up to the same high level that you find in northern European countries like Germany. That wasn't going to happen soon, so EU subsidies were doomed not to be entirely effective. And, of course, a lot of this aid from the EU was in the form of loans, which has gotten some of these smaller less prosperous states into a real bind.

Some of the problems we have in the US reflect, in a minor way, problems that exist in the EU. Companies move to Texas to avoid taxes leaving states like New York and California with less revenue to pay for their more "advanced" pension systems and other social programs. States with more generous welfare programs, like Hawaii, see a big influx of deadbeats homeless people, giving rise to a big problem for them.

 

[Tigerace117]

I was forever confused about the EU and whether Brexit was a good idea or not. A few thoughts helped clarify it a bit for me:








Immigration had a lot to do with it. But it was more than just immigration, it was the fact that Angela Merkel decided for the whole EU how many immigrants the EU would take, and the UK had no say in that. What would Merkel be telling them to do next? Kill all their Jews? Abolish the pound sterling and accept the Euro? Whatever it was to be it was sure to be in Germany's best interest and despite any reservations the UK had.

The small countries like Scotland and Ireland were in favor of staying in the EU. This was in part because they had their hands out for free stuff from the EU. Ireland got a lot of its nice rail system built with EU money. Scotland and certain parts of England were looking for some of the same. It had all been a part of a project to bring all the EU countries up to the same level, but that would have necessitated bringing the polity up to the same high level that you find in northern European countries like Germany. That wasn't going to happen soon, so EU subsidies were doomed not to be entirely effective. And, of course, a lot of this aid from the EU was in the form of loans, which has gotten some of these smaller less prosperous states into a real bind.

Some of the problems we have in the US reflect, in a minor way, problems that exist in the EU. Companies move to Texas to avoid taxes leaving states like New York and California with less revenue to pay for their more "advanced" pension systems and other social programs. States with more generous welfare programs, like Hawaii, see a big influx of deadbeats homeless people, giving rise to a big problem for them.

So the EU is secretly a plot for Germany to control all of Europe........


Where do people get this ****.

 

[ocean515]

So the EU is secretly a plot for Germany to control all of Europe........


Where do people get this ****.

I'm guessing by doing research and reading reports from the region.

 

[Tigerace117]

I'm guessing by doing research and reading reports from the region.

That's an......interesting.....conclusion to come to then :roll:

 

[LowDown]

So the EU is secretly a plot for Germany to control all of Europe........

Where do you get the nonsense about a secret plot? A significant part of the purpose of the EU was to hook laggard little countries like Ireland and Greece to the economic dynamo that is Germany and bring everyone up. Germany naturally takes a leadership role. Germans are naturally proud of that. Naturally their policy is not entirely devoid of self interest.

 

[ocean515]

That's an......interesting.....conclusion to come to then :roll:

Only to those who haven't made the effort.

 

[Tigerace117]

Only to those who haven't made the effort.

Frankly, if that's the conclusion your going to come to you need to recheck your work

 

[Tigerace117]

Where do you get the nonsense about a secret plot? A significant part of the purpose of the EU was to hook laggard little countries like Ireland and Greece to the economic dynamo that is Germany and bring everyone up. Germany naturally takes a leadership role. Germans are naturally proud of that. Naturally their policy is not entirely devoid of self interest.

"A new path to German greatness "

That sounds rather ominous, does it not?

 

[ocean515]

I was forever confused about the EU and whether Brexit was a good idea or not. A few thoughts helped clarify it a bit for me:









Immigration had a lot to do with it. But it was more than just immigration, it was the fact that Angela Merkel decided for the whole EU how many immigrants the EU would take, and the UK had no say in that. What would Merkel be telling them to do next? Kill all their Jews? Abolish the pound sterling and accept the Euro? Whatever it was to be it was sure to be in Germany's best interest and despite any reservations the UK had.

The small countries like Scotland and Ireland were in favor of staying in the EU. This was in part because they had their hands out for free stuff from the EU. Ireland got a lot of its nice rail system built with EU money. Scotland and certain parts of England were looking for some of the same. It had all been a part of a project to bring all the EU countries up to the same level, but that would have necessitated bringing the polity up to the same high level that you find in northern European countries like Germany. That wasn't going to happen soon, so EU subsidies were doomed not to be entirely effective. And, of course, a lot of this aid from the EU was in the form of loans, which has gotten some of these smaller less prosperous states into a real bind.

Some of the problems we have in the US reflect, in a minor way, problems that exist in the EU. Companies move to Texas to avoid taxes leaving states like New York and California with less revenue to pay for their more "advanced" pension systems and other social programs. States with more generous welfare programs, like Hawaii, see a big influx of deadbeats homeless people, giving rise to a big problem for them.

The facts appear to confirm your conclusion. People in the UK have gone on record expressing fear of admitting they voted to exit the EU, because they would be painted as racists. It wasn't just an immigration issue.

Welcome to Brexit Britain - a nation of secret Leave voters too afraid to own up 

“I’m not going to tell the world I voted leave,” said one 32-year-old man who wanted to remain anonymous for precisely that reason. “It’s a personal decision and I know that my friends and family in London all voted Remain and wouldn't understand.”

His decision was based purely on economic reasons – he thinks Britain will be stronger out of the EU – but fears people will assume he voted to leave because of immigration.
​

The actions of Globalist Elites is having a similar impact on California.

5 Million People Left California Over the Past Decade

Chuck DeVore, the vice president of the Texas Public Policy Foundation and a former Republican assemblyman in California, said the pattern over the last decade has shown former Californians generally moving to states with greater economic opportunity, less regulation and lower taxes.

California has a 13.3 percent income tax, the highest in the U.S., and ranked as the fourth most taxed state in the nation, according to the Tax Foundation. In comparison, Texas, which does not have an income tax, ranked at 47.
​

 

[ocean515]

Frankly, if that's the conclusion your going to come to you need to recheck your work

Frankly, if that is going to be your response, you need to do ANY work.

 

[Cardinal]

"A new path to German greatness "

That sounds rather ominous, does it not?

Suppressed since WWII, no less. Yeah, that leapt out at me too. I wonder what kind of tone Betsy is trying to strike, here?

 

[code1211]

So the EU is secretly a plot for Germany to control all of Europe........


Where do people get this ****.

This is not the only place I've read or heard this.

The EU was viewed by many as accomplishing what the Wehrmacht was unable to complete.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/31/is-germany-too-powerful-for-europe

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Germany-disproportionately-powerful-in-the-EU

Top Judge: EU Court Is Far Too Powerful And Wastes Money

 

[Tigerace117]

Frankly, if that is going to be your response, you need to do ANY work.

If my response is "this sounds like a bunch of people who are desperately trying to rationalize what their country voted to do" then yeah, I'm pretty sure my work is good.

 

[ocean515]

If my response is "this sounds like a bunch of people who are desperately trying to rationalize what their country voted to do" then yeah, I'm pretty sure my work is good.

If that is as far as you're willing to go, I wonder how you could question anyone who is not so limited in their knowledge of events.

 

[Tigerace117]

Suppressed since WWII, no less. Yeah, that leapt out at me too. I wonder what kind of tone Betsy is trying to strike, here?

Paranoia, I guess?

 

[Tigerace117]

If that is as far as you're willing to go, I wonder how you could question anyone who is not so limited in their knowledge of events.

Let's make things perfectly clear---- the EU isn't some kind of German plot to set up the Fourth Reich.

 

[Cardinal]

Paranoia, I guess?

The Godwin-y kind, is my take.

 

[Tigerace117]

The Godwin-y kind, is my take.

True. My take is that people are throwing things out there to see what's going to stick to rationalize the vote.

 

[ocean515]

Let's make things perfectly clear---- the EU isn't some kind of German plot to set up the Fourth Reich.

I don't know where you get "Fourth Reich" from, but the perceived loss of sovereignty in the UK, and the governing dominance of Germany in the EU, has been cited by voters in the UK as a compelling reason to vote to leave.

I've provided some links to information supporting these realities. Your personal opinion is noted.

 

[LowDown]

"A new path to German greatness "

That sounds rather ominous, does it not?

If it means that Angela Merkel gets to be compassionate with everyone else's money, territory, and national identity then I can see how it would rub people the wrong way.

If you woke up one morning in London to the sound of the Adhan and when you stepped out on the street someone slapped a taqiyah on your head and told you to get to the Mosque for prayers then, you're going to tell us, it would make no difference to you.

 

[LowDown]

Let's make things perfectly clear---- the EU isn't some kind of German plot to set up the Fourth Reich.

Of course not. You're the one who came up with that nonsense.

 

[Tigerace117]

If it means that Angela Merkel gets to be compassionate with everyone else's money, territory, and national identity then I can see how it would rub people the wrong way.

If you woke up one morning in London to the sound of the Adhan and when you stepped out on the street someone slapped a taqiyah on your head and told you to get to the Mosque for prayers then, you're going to tell us, it would make no difference to you.

I mean, I'm not Muslim, so I'd be rather confused, but that kind of thing isn't going to happen no matter how many immigrants show up, so......

Germany has taken in plenty of immigrants themselves.

 

[Tigerace117]

Of course not. You're the one who came up with that nonsense.

Actually, no, I'm not. I've heard some of the far right wackjobs on the Internet call it that before.

 

[LowDown]

Actually, no, I'm not. I've heard some of the far right wackjobs on the Internet call it that before.

Ok, then you're the one who dragged it into this thread.

 

[LowDown]

I mean, I'm not Muslim, so I'd be rather confused, but that kind of thing isn't going to happen no matter how many immigrants show up, so......

Germany has taken in plenty of immigrants themselves.

Sorry, but it has already happened.