What Should Happen to the College Students Whose Parents Bribed Their Way In?

[JasperL]

I think one of the things that offends people the most about this, is the idea that a student getting accepted
by fraudulent means, somehow takes a slot for a deserving student, and that is likely not accurate.
The school alone decides how many sections of a class they will offer, and how large the class sizes will be.
opening another section of a class is as simple as hiring another adjunct.
Consider a Freshman class, of 30 students, at Yale, each student pays $4,200 for that class,
so the school brings in an extra $126,000, and pays the new adjunct at most $10,000.
Most universities are no where near 100% duty cycle on their classroom space, but even if they were,
they have money to rent space, and still make a profit.
Remember admission is not a guarantee of a degree, the students still have to complete the course work.

You're doing a lot of work justifying or hand waving away crimes, fraud, lies, deception, bribes, as no big deal. It's a mystery why you feel compelled to do that.

 

[longview]

You're doing a lot of work justifying or hand waving away crimes, fraud, lies, deception, bribes, as no big deal. It's a mystery why you feel compelled to do that.

Not really, I am trying to make two points,
One, that a university degree is about the successful completion of the course of study, not the application.
and two, we have to be careful about punishing people for things they have no control over, or knowledge of.
I happen to think we place too much importance on the name of the school attended, the actual level of difficulty
is likely much the same for say any BS degree regardless of the name of the school.
Beyond academic quality, what are we really measuring, who can afford the most expensive school?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Prosecute the parent(s).

Make the kids retake all SAT tests and/or entrance exams. Review all of their university grades/work/papers to date.

If the kids don't measure up with acceptable metrics, expel them.

 

[JasperL]

Not really, I am trying to make two points,
One, that a university degree is about the successful completion of the course of study, not the application.
and two, we have to be careful about punishing people for things they have no control over, or knowledge of.
I happen to think we place too much importance on the name of the school attended, the actual level of difficulty
is likely much the same for say any BS degree regardless of the name of the school.
Beyond academic quality, what are we really measuring, who can afford the most expensive school?

You just said, effectively, 'no harm done by parents engaging in fraud' because a school chooses how many to admit. That's true but Yale would have had a cap in that year of a known number, and admitting one person meant to NOT admit someone else. Could they have admitted ONE more? Sure, but it doesn't change that someone who gets in by fraud did mean someone else did NOT get admitted.

 

[Bucky]

Oh, pooor pooor parents. Maybe they shouldn't have been paying out bribes.

A parent will do anything for their children. If you found out your parents did that for you, that wouldn't make you love them any less.

 

[Bucky]

Prosecute the parent(s).

Make the kids retake all SAT tests and/or entrance exams. Review all of their university grades/work/papers to date.

If the kids don't measure up with acceptable metrics, expel them.

That's just silly.

 

[Bucky]

Yeah, but if their parents are buying them grades, and getting them into admissions with false test scores and fake athletic admissions; they know the score. Kick them out, if it can be shown the kids really had no clue, then they can retake the SAT/ACTs and reapply for colleges on their own merits.

Tell me one student that has an admissions advisor who writes their own college entrance essay.

The answer is ZERO. Most people with some money and caring parents do not get into college on their own merits.

 

[Ikari]

Tell me one student that has an admissions advisor who writes their own college entrance essay.

The answer is ZERO. Most people with some money and caring parents do not get into college on their own merits.

The ol' "Cheating is OK because everyone does it" excuse.

lol

Kick them out. Most of them should be thrown out for academic dishonesty and barred from University level schooling for some period of time.

 

[noonereal]

Tell me one student that has an admissions advisor who writes their own college entrance essay.

The answer is ZERO. Most people with some money and caring parents do not get into college on their own merits.

What neighborhood are you from? Must be an awful place..

 

[noonereal]

Prosecute the parent(s).

Make the kids retake all SAT tests and/or entrance exams. Review all of their university grades/work/papers to date.

If the kids don't measure up with acceptable metrics, expel them.

ridiculous

just vacate their time there, if they have since graduated or not

 

[Bucky]

The ol' "Cheating is OK because everyone does it" excuse.

lol

Kick them out. Most of them should be thrown out for academic dishonesty and barred from University level schooling for some period of time.

I kind of compare it to baseball. If you are the only baseball player not taking steroids, and EVERYONE else is, you most likely will fall behind. I am not saying that kid should take steroids, however he would need to work twice as hard to be able to keep up with all the cheaters.

IMO something is wrong with the system, not the parents/kids.

 

[Ikari]

What neighborhood are you from? Must be an awful place..

 

[noonereal]

Not really, I am trying to make two points,
One, that a university degree is about the successful completion of the course of study, not the application.

You are advocating that the proceeds of the crime be kept by those it was given to.

If the parents stole ten grand and gave it to their kids should the kids be allowed to keep the cash?

See how ridiculous your position is?

 

[Ikari]

I kind of compare it to baseball. If you are the only baseball player not taking steroids, and EVERYONE else is, you most likely will fall behind. I am not saying that kid should take steroids, however he would need to work twice as hard to be able to keep up with all the cheaters.

IMO something is wrong with the system, not the parents/kids.

There are issues with the system, clearly shown from this case itself. But to excuse the actions of the parents and kids because everyone does it is a reckless excuse. Affluenza to a new level.

Parents get prosecuted and do some jail time, every educator involved is also prosecuted and fired, kids are kicked out for academic dishonesty.

 

[Visbek]

It seems clear the government is convincing the parents to plead guilty in exchange for not prosecuting their adult children. I think this is a TERRIBLE mistake and reinforces the spoiled brats that their parents are still covering their laziness, failures and misdeeds. This is exactly the WRONG lesson.

Where are you getting that from?

While the kids do bear some responsibility, and I doubt any of them were truly ignorant, it was in fact the parents who committed the criminal acts here. They were the ones who arranged the fraud, who made the payments, and in some cases tried to take the payments off their taxes.

Even if we argue that the kids have some moral culpability, I'd expect it would be extremely difficult to prove that the kids have any legal culpability. It's even harder to imagine that the FBI would be able to successfully use it as leverage.

I'd add that the FBI does not need to threaten the kids at all. The ringleader (Rick Singer) already rolled, he's cooperating, they've got all his documentation. The parents are already screwed.

On the other hand, I hate the police state tactics and making the crimes more than they are. One MILLION dollar bond? She's not going to flee.

$1 million bond is pretty typical.

More horrific is one of the women was literally arrested at gun point.

Oh, really? Where do you think she lives, Japan?

This is the US. About 1/3 of American homes have a gun. Law enforcement never knows if someone is going to try and violently resist arrest. it doesn't matter if they are accused of bribery, LEOs have no idea who or what is on the other side of the door.

This isn't new, either. I'm pretty sure this has been SOP for decades. The fauxrage over this is downright bizarre. Is this primarily because it's the FBI or something? Is this more partisan poisoning?

 

[longview]

You just said, effectively, 'no harm done by parents engaging in fraud' because a school chooses how many to admit. That's true but Yale would have had a cap in that year of a known number, and admitting one person meant to NOT admit someone else. Could they have admitted ONE more? Sure, but it doesn't change that someone who gets in by fraud did mean someone else did NOT get admitted.

The cap is of their own choosing, which is why the official process of making a large donation to get your child accepted is ok.
The school can make adjustments as necessary.

 

[longview]

You are advocating that the proceeds of the crime be kept by those it was given to.

If the parents stole ten grand and gave it to their kids should the kids be allowed to keep the cash?

See how ridiculous your position is?

Not exactly, I am saying that caution should be exercised, in expelling students who did not know they did not they were accepted
by anything but the normal path, as well as how extreme they want to get.
If this all started in 2012, there could be 3 years of issued degrees out there already.
the student did complete the required course work, and earned degrees.
If the entire degree is only based on being accepted to the university, why do they do the classes?

 

[JasperL]

The cap is of their own choosing, which is why the official process of making a large donation to get your child accepted is ok.
The school can make adjustments as necessary.

Again, not sure why you're trying so hard to justify this behavior. I really don't get why so many conservatives (certainly not all!) are defending the parents here. It's the opposite of personal responsibility, and really represents nothing more than bowing down to plutocracy, a system where the richest keep the spoils and any scheme to sustain that advantage must be, therefore, OK because it's what's necessary to sustain the plutocracy. I wasn't aware that was a conservative principle, but it appears it must be.

You are right of course that the LEGAL ways the system is tilted in favor of the wealthy for these slots are many, but that already fundamentally 'unfair' system wasn't enough for these parents. They couldn't even rely on those MANY legal advantages for their dullard kids, and so went to the extraordinary means of guaranteeing a slot for their kids through bribery, fraud, etc.

It's the equivalent of a race, say the 100 meter, where the kids of the wealthy already start on the 30, while the poor start at 0. But these kids were so incompetent that even given THAT advantage wasn't enough, so the parents arranged to trip the poor kids coming out of the gate to guarantee a win for their talentless children. And you're defending both advantages here. The one we accept as 'normal' and the extraordinary one of tripping other applicants out of the gate. It's fascinating in a way. I just don't get it.

 

[noonereal]

Not exactly, I am saying that caution should be exercised, in expelling students who did not know they did not they were accepted
by anything but the normal path, as well as how extreme they want to get.
If this all started in 2012, there could be 3 years of issued degrees out there already.
the student did complete the required course work, and earned degrees.
If the entire degree is only based on being accepted to the university, why do they do the classes?

Louisville won the national title why was it stripped from them along with all there wins. The players were not aware of any wrong doings.

Come on man, you can't be allowed to keep stolen property. It's that simple.

 

[noonereal]

Again, not sure why you're trying so hard to justify this behavior. I really don't get why so many conservatives (certainly not all!) are defending the parents .

noonereal waves his hand in the air furiously as he knows the answer.

Called on he says, "because Trumpets are the ultimate "victim" and entitled mentality!"

nooonereal is proud to have enlightened the class.

 

[longview]

Again, not sure why you're trying so hard to justify this behavior. I really don't get why so many conservatives (certainly not all!) are defending the parents here. It's the opposite of personal responsibility, and really represents nothing more than bowing down to plutocracy, a system where the richest keep the spoils and any scheme to sustain that advantage must be, therefore, OK because it's what's necessary to sustain the plutocracy. I wasn't aware that was a conservative principle, but it appears it must be.

You are right of course that the LEGAL ways the system is tilted in favor of the wealthy for these slots are many, but that already fundamentally 'unfair' system wasn't enough for these parents. They couldn't even rely on those MANY legal advantages for their dullard kids, and so went to the extraordinary means of guaranteeing a slot for their kids through bribery, fraud, etc.

It's the equivalent of a race, say the 100 meter, where the kids of the wealthy already start on the 30, while the poor start at 0. But these kids were so incompetent that even given THAT advantage wasn't enough, so the parents arranged to trip the poor kids coming out of the gate to guarantee a win for their talentless children. And you're defending both advantages here. The one we accept as 'normal' and the extraordinary one of tripping other applicants out of the gate. It's fascinating in a way. I just don't get it.

I am not justifying the behavior, the parents and students who were aware of the fraud should be punished.
Where I am drawing the distinction, is that we have to be careful about the punishing the students who played no part in the fraud.
This type of thing threatens to expose the contorted admission criteria, perhaps the schools should conduct admissions in a way that everyone can see who is admitted and
on what basis.

 

[Visbek]

I am not justifying the behavior, the parents and students who were aware of the fraud should be punished.
Where I am drawing the distinction, is that we have to be careful about the punishing the students who played no part in the fraud.

No, we really don't.

We need to be careful that fraud was committed. Once that is established, the students should not benefit from the CRIMINAL behavior that resulted in their admission to the school -- and prevented someone else, who presumably did not cheat, from attending.

If your spouse embezzles $500,000 from work, and gives you half of it, do you get to keep it just because you didn't know it was stolen? Nope. Same with the kids. Even if they had no idea, they should not benefit from criminal activity, period.

 

[longview]

No, we really don't.

We need to be careful that fraud was committed. Once that is established, the students should not benefit from the CRIMINAL behavior that resulted in their admission to the school -- and prevented someone else, who presumably did not cheat, from attending.

If your spouse embezzles $500,000 from work, and gives you half of it, do you get to keep it just because you didn't know it was stolen? Nope. Same with the kids. Even if they had no idea, they should not benefit from criminal activity, period.

If a child's parents brought them to the US illegally, should they be allowed to stay?

 

[trouble13]

Hell, the parents are more of the problem than the kids, because apparently most of the kids were unaware.

1st off they are not kids if they are over 18 and secondly I have a very hard time buying that the majority of them did not know. They should all be charged the same as the parents.

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[trouble13]

Well, I'm going on what has been revealed. Perhaps some of the students are lying about their knowledge, which is a big possibility. It is kind of a stretch, thinking about it.

It's also a stretch to believe that the schools didn't at least suspect something wrong was going on if not outright knowing about.

Parents and students are now suing the universities involved and it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

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