What "principle" of MAGA is not fascist in nature? (1 Viewer)

[NWRatCon]

I truly think that MAGA is just a synonym for "moron", or maybe it's "Morons And Grifters Anonymous". It has to be proof that God doesn't exist, because why would God curse us with such unrelenting stupidity? Unless... she's testing us like Abraham? Like Job?

Can't y'all get together and make SOME kind of argument? Even if it is dishonest (as it is bound to be), not even ONE? What's really tragic is, some of you actually believe you have.... <SAD>

 

[pedex]

Anti MAGA is fascist and suicidal.

If you are opposed to making America great again you are an enemy of the state.

I think many would settle for functional but mediocre at this point lol. Baby steps.

 

[CLAX1911]

I think many would settle for functional but mediocre at this point lol. Baby steps.

I'm just going by what maga means. I didn't assign it some sinister meaning because I'm not trying to convince people that deporting El Salvadorian gangsters to El Salvador is unconstitutional.

 

[pedex]

I'm just going by what maga means. I didn't assign it some sinister meaning because I'm not trying to convince people that deporting El Salvadorian gangsters to El Salvador is unconstitutional.

Unfortunately TDS means supporting or agreeing with some pretty self destructive policies or values. Anything but agreeing with anything Trump. Pretty distorted hypocritical position to occupy but many are doing exactly that. Go figure. I think a bit of nationalism and pride in your country is healthy and normal. I pay taxes. I expect the govt to work for me and the general public as enumerated in our laws and Constitution. I don't think that should be distorted or made into something bad.

 

[CLAX1911]

Unfortunately TDS means supporting or agreeing with some pretty self destructive policies or values.

That would be BDS

Anything but agreeing with anything Trump.

Good thing I don't agree with him on everything.

Pretty distorted hypocritical position to occupy but many are doing exactly that.

Probably not.

Go figure. I think a bit of nationalism and pride in your country is healthy and normal. I pay taxes. I expect the govt to work for me and the general public as enumerated in our laws and Constitution. I don't think that should be distorted or made into something bad.

What's bad here explain why?

 

[RF667799]

This is the fourth day for this thread. Not a single substantive response - because the premise is MAGA=Fascist. It's called a "truism". Can't be refuted.

Among the synonyms for truism: banality, chestnut, groaner, cliche, trope...

 

[RF667799]

So,

So, nothing. Absolutely nothing. Do you know the basics of logic? Do you understand the concept of "premise"? Geebus, it is amazing how cowardly and insubstantial MAGA apologist's posts are. Do you actually believe that you presented ANYTHING that addressed the thread? Your post is a joke, right? You can't be serious with this kinda nonsense.

Back in the bin.

He's right. There was nothing of substance in your OP. Just a declaration and a challenge to prove you wrong.

Then when given something of substance in response, you dismiss it out of hand.

Bait thread, like so many you initiate.

 

[pedex]

What's bad here explain why?

that's what Maga basically stands for yet it's been turned into a political slur

 

[CLAX1911]

that's what Maga basically stands for yet it's been turned into a political slur

I don't recognize any slurs.

What does it mean like the n-word or something?

 

[Tensor101]

Lol.....topic belongs in the basement/toilet from the jump.
When Trump forces business to close, arrests hairdressers for giving a haircut, arrest surfers for going to the beach, rounds up political opponents and jails them for months/years without trial, forces experimental life threatening shots to keep their jobs, forces girls to compete with males, invites foreign terrorist into the country, allows Democrat brownshirts to loot and burn private and public property, I might start to take you people seriously.

Fascist or not, they argued that inflation under Biden was unacceptable so they elected someone who will increase tariffs. Figure that one. But the first lie to them was "Make America Great Again" because America was always great. I look at them as un-educated in simple Economics. And, nobody knows where these tariffs will lead, he hasn't told us because he doesn't know either. One thing he does know is that the pot of gold called the Treasury is growing to over $5 Trillion. Then, when it maximizes, it becomes tax break time for corporations and Trump stands to win about $1.3 Billion in tax benefits and goes laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Tensor101]

Fascist or not, they argued that inflation under Biden was unacceptable so they elected someone who will increase tariffs. Figure that one. But the first lie to them was "Make America Great Again" because America was always great. I look at them as un-educated in simple Economics. And, nobody knows where these tariffs will lead, he hasn't told us because he doesn't know either. One thing he does know is that the pot of gold called the Treasury is growing to over $5 Trillion. Then, when it maximizes, it becomes tax break time for corporations and Trump stands to win about $1.3 Billion in tax benefits and goes laughing all the way to the bank. MAGAs do you dispute this?

 

[NWRatCon]

Fascist or not, they argued that inflation under Biden was unacceptable so they elected someone who will increase tariffs. Figure that one. But the first lie to them was "Make America Great Again" because America was always great. I look at them as un-educated in simple Economics. And, nobody knows where these tariffs will lead, he hasn't told us because he doesn't know either. One thing he does know is that the pot of gold called the Treasury is growing to over $5 Trillion. Then, when it maximizes, it becomes tax break time for corporations and Trump stands to win about $1.3 Billion in tax benefits and goes laughing all the way to the bank.

But here's three point, my friend. I've given them a platform, and a challenge: to lay out an argument about what principles MAGA stands for, and demonstrate that they are not fascist in nature. None have done so. None have even tried.

Honestly, I'm not surprised. First, MAGAnaughts are, collectively, not bright. They fall for every lame con imaginable. Second, they don't understand the basic principles of logic and argument (or else they wouldn't fall for such lame cons). Third, they're inherently dishonest, so they like being conned. Fourth, they're cowards, and never face a challenge, especially the truth about themselves. Fifth, they have nothing to work with because MAGA is a fascist movement, so anything they posted in defense would actually prove the premise. Finally, they cannot admit the truth because that would demonstrate their basic lack of human decency. They like fascism, they want to be fascist - so long as they are in the "in" group. It's transparent to everyone else, but they're so used to the self-delusion, they won't accept reality. Or admit anything.

 

[Athanasius68]

• Secret Police and Repression:
  Fascist governments frequently establish secret police forces to monitor and suppress dissent, often with broad powers to arrest, detain, and even execute perceived opponents. (See ICE)
• Censorship and Propaganda:
  News, media, and cultural institutions are tightly controlled to ensure that only the regime's narrative is presented to the public. This includes banning certain books, newspapers, and artistic works that challenge the regime's ideology.
• Cult of Personality:
  A powerful leader is often portrayed as a charismatic figure who embodies the nation, and any criticism of the leader is seen as a direct attack on the nation itself.
• Militarization:
  Fascism often emphasizes military strength and aggressive nationalism, which can create a climate of fear and discourage dissent.
• Suppression of Dissent:
  Fascist regimes tend to suppress opposition, including freedom of speech, the press, and assembly.
• Racial or Ethnic Nationalism:
  Some forms of fascism, like Nazism, have used racial or ethnic nationalism to define national identity and justify discrimination against minorities, according to Wikipedia.
• Economic Control:
  Fascist regimes often control the economy, prioritizing national self-sufficiency and state-directed industrialization, says Wikipedia.

The objections isn't that the above characterization of 'fascism' is incorrect.
Its that its meaningless for here because all modern parties have these traits.

• Censorship and Propaganda:
  News, media, and cultural institutions are tightly controlled to ensure that only the regime's narrative is presented to the public. This includes banning certain books, newspapers, and artistic works that challenge the regime's ideology
• Suppression of Dissent:
  Fascist regimes tend to suppress opposition, including freedom of speech, the press, and assembly.

This is standard in communist countries; we see this kind of stuff in censorship originating in Europe (VP Vance
earlier this year was criticized for pointing this out; the censorship office the Biden Admin had set up; the repealed but ever lurking Canadian Human Rights law

Economic control:
Fascist regimes often control the economy, prioritizing national self-sufficiency and state-directed industrialization, says Wikipedia.

Yes-- and we see this from Communist countries, to Laborites to the Dick Gephardts and Bernie Sanders of the world.
Free trade is difficult, and it is regrettable that in the USA there is no longer really a 'free trade party." It is unlikely that the Democrats will fill the breach.

 

[Athanasius68]

Still, nothing, nothing, nothing from the defenders, except..."nuh-uhhhhh!" "No, it's not!"

Here's the problem: if one identifies what fascism is, they cannot find an exception in Trump/MAGA's behavior. Because it isn't there. Let's try, for them.

Google AI overview :"fascism is a political philosophy that puts the nation above everything else, emphasizing national unity and strength over individual rights and freedoms. It's often characterized by strong, centralized government control, militarism, and a focus on a "pure" national identity, often at the expense of minority groups."

See any parallels to MAGA? More important to this discussion - see any exceptions?

• Secret Police and Repression:
  Fascist governments frequently establish secret police forces to monitor and suppress dissent, often with broad powers to arrest, detain, and even execute perceived opponents. (See ICE)
• Censorship and Propaganda:
  News, media, and cultural institutions are tightly controlled to ensure that only the regime's narrative is presented to the public. This includes banning certain books, newspapers, and artistic works that challenge the regime's ideology.
• Cult of Personality:
  A powerful leader is often portrayed as a charismatic figure who embodies the nation, and any criticism of the leader is seen as a direct attack on the nation itself.
• Militarization:
  Fascism often emphasizes military strength and aggressive nationalism, which can create a climate of fear and discourage dissent.
• Suppression of Dissent:
  Fascist regimes tend to suppress opposition, including freedom of speech, the press, and assembly.
• Racial or Ethnic Nationalism:
  Some forms of fascism, like Nazism, have used racial or ethnic nationalism to define national identity and justify discrimination against minorities, according to Wikipedia.
• Economic Control:
  Fascist regimes often control the economy, prioritizing national self-sufficiency and state-directed industrialization, says Wikipedia.
  
  See also the referenced articles. I'm trying to help, here.

• Cult of Personality:
  A powerful leader is often portrayed as a charismatic figure who embodies the nation, and any criticism of the leader is seen as a direct attack on the nation itself.

The aforementioned Bernie Sanders comes to mind.

Secret Police and Repression:
Fascist governments frequently establish secret police forces to monitor and suppress dissent, often with broad powers to arrest, detain, and even execute perceived opponents. (See ICE)

I would suspect the old style Gestapo, Stasi, KGB, DS, MSS, would be embarrassed to suggest that "ICE" constitutes a secret police in the USA.

 

[Mr Person]

I don't think you get how this sort of thing works. Your OP can be effectively summarized as "MAGA IS FASCIST, PROVE ME WRONG!"

And what, exactly?

MAGAs will get their fee-fees hurt, run away, and make a bunch of "I hate librul" threads to retaliate? Oh noes! They never do that!


If MAGA isn't fascist, you should have been able to articulate at least one of its principles and argue that it is not fascist. (That is, without lying about the principle or its employment by past fascist regimes).

In contrast, OP's creator has had a very easy time identifying fascist principles inherent to MAGA:

See any parallels to MAGA? More important to this discussion - see any exceptions?

• Secret Police and Repression:
  Fascist governments frequently establish secret police forces to monitor and suppress dissent, often with broad powers to arrest, detain, and even execute perceived opponents. (See ICE)
• Censorship and Propaganda:
  News, media, and cultural institutions are tightly controlled to ensure that only the regime's narrative is presented to the public. This includes banning certain books, newspapers, and artistic works that challenge the regime's ideology.
• Cult of Personality:
  A powerful leader is often portrayed as a charismatic figure who embodies the nation, and any criticism of the leader is seen as a direct attack on the nation itself.
• Militarization:
  Fascism often emphasizes military strength and aggressive nationalism, which can create a climate of fear and discourage dissent.
• Suppression of Dissent:
  Fascist regimes tend to suppress opposition, including freedom of speech, the press, and assembly.
• Racial or Ethnic Nationalism:
  Some forms of fascism, like Nazism, have used racial or ethnic nationalism to define national identity and justify discrimination against minorities, according to Wikipedia.
• Economic Control:
  Fascist regimes often control the economy, prioritizing national self-sufficiency and state-directed industrialization, says Wikipedia.
  
  See also the referenced articles. I'm trying to help, here.

 

[AJG]

I'm just going by what maga means. I didn't assign it some sinister meaning because I'm not trying to convince people that deporting El Salvadorian gangsters to El Salvador is unconstitutional.

No American is opposed to making America great. But MAGA is just a slogan. What MAGA really stands for and what they're actually doing is quite different. And no one is against deporting El Salvadorian gangsters either. What we're actually against is the lack of due process and the government deporting innocent people to concentration camps outside the reach of our judicial system.

 

[Athanasius68]

Just a few examples there are lots more out there.. Trump is using Orban's playbook. Frighten the citizenry, silence the press, persecute your opponents and squash free speech.

The citizenry and press are being silenced?
Since when?

I said unfettered. The GOP in Congress are not using their oversight powers to hold Trump accountable abdicating their checks and balance responsibilities.

Then that would be a Congress issue, not the president.
But Trump is scarcely the first president who had a Congress controlled by his political allies who did not 'gun' for him.

As a result he is issuing illegal EO'

Some courts are saying this, true.
He is appealing.

, usurping the powers of the purse

No. Congress sometimes gives the president money to spend within certain parameters.
Where he can, Trump is proposing to spend it differently than had Biden or Harris proposed to do.

etc

Threatening newspapers with legal action, TV stations their broadcast license and punishing reporters who speak ill of Trump

He is just shooting off his mouth.
Nothing he can do here.

He is threatening to impeach judges

A president can't impeach judges. The House leadership is pretty much saying its a dead end.
It ain't going to happen.

and limit the scope of their ruling through executive action

No-- he is instructing the subordinate officlals within the Executive branch how the law will be enorced.

and congressional action .

With the exception of SCOTUS, all courts are a creation of Congress. They set up its jurisdictions and limitations.

Punishing students who peacefully protest against Israel

No. Students who are here on visas and who break laws or associate with terrorists organizations will have a problem.

Punishment of legal firms who represented or represent his political enemies.

Or who pushed the spurious Steele dossier onto the USA government; thus launching baseless criminal investigations of a candidate for office.

Starting a criminal investigation of a former WH employee who was responsible for election security publicly stated the election in 2020 was free and fair.

Shrug. As above-- Mr, Trump was criminally investigated in 2016, 2020 and 2024.

The flip side is using his powers to pardon violent criminals who supported him Jan 6th

He should have only pardoned those who did not engage in any sort of violence.

There is a difference between public education and private Universities.

Not when you take fed $$$.

 

[bomberfox]

True. I want a maga to define it because they are always trying to redefine everything. I think it would be fun in a funny sense.

The last thing they'll do is try to lay out the traits of fascism. They don't want to look into that mirror and see that particular light.

They think fascism is when they are asked to wear a mask.

 

[AZRWinger]

But here's three point, my friend. I've given them a platform, and a challenge: to lay out an argument about what principles MAGA stands for, and demonstrate that they are not fascist in nature. None have done so. None have even tried.

Honestly, I'm not surprised. First, MAGAnaughts are, collectively, not bright. They fall for every lame con imaginable. Second, they don't understand the basic principles of logic and argument (or else they wouldn't fall for such lame cons). Third, they're inherently dishonest, so they like being conned. Fourth, they're cowards, and never face a challenge, especially the truth about themselves. Fifth, they have nothing to work with because MAGA is a fascist movement, so anything they posted in defense would actually prove the premise. Finally, they cannot admit the truth because that would demonstrate their basic lack of human decency. They like fascism, they want to be fascist - so long as they are in the "in" group. It's transparent to everyone else, but they're so used to the self-delusion, they won't accept reality. Or admit anything.

Here is the challenge issued on the OP.

"I've long considered MAGA as just a fascist movement. Indeed, I'm aware of no evidence to refute that. So, I'm starting a thread to entertain arguments to the contrary."

Naturally your self confessed prejudice not only prevents you from analyzing the evidence that MAGA is the polar opposite of Fascism, it authorizes your indulgence in demagoguery in a crude attempt to otherize the evil MAGA.

MAGA under the Trump administration is the opposite of facism because.

It activley engages in reduction of the size and scope of the Federal government. Not just DOGE but reducing unnecessary regulation and the bureaucracy.

It enforces immigration law. MAGA opposes undermining immigration law by so-called sanctuary jurisdictions. It's the Trump administration that has radically reducef illegal border crossings.

It insists on returning the Federal criminal justice amd intelligence to their intended roles rather than being political weapons.

Fighting censorship by holding the media accountable for politicized reporting such as the Russian collusion hoax and the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop story.

 

[Felis Leo]

To start, I'm not inculcated in the "philosophy" of MAGA. I base my views on the expressions in public discourse, particularly on DP. I'm fervently anti-MAGA on that basis. I'm also a long-time student of fascism and authoritarian movements. Because of that, I've long considered MAGA as just a fascist movement. Indeed, I'm aware of no evidence to refute that. So, I'm starting a thread to entertain arguments to the contrary.

Be advised, however, that claims must be based upon substance, not unsupported conclusory statements. And they are subject to substantive challenge. I'd like to keep this thread out of the basement, so keep your commentary upstairs-worthy.

Hmmm...so from what I can glean from most folks who describe themselves as MAGA, I can only find the following that links it to other past fascist movements:

1. It relies on a cult of personality around an infallible* leader Donald Trump who cannot fail and has never failed, but when his policies do not succeed, must have been betrayed by internal saboteurs.
2. That it is openly nationalistic, i.e. "America First", and viewing our nation's relations with other countries as a zero-sum competitive game in which there are no mutually-beneficial relationships, only winners and losers.
3. It is openly anti-empiricist, and sneers at scientific consensus (and the scientific method) and academics in general, replacing respected experts with quacks and idiots.
4. It seeks to establish either autarky (where everything is produced in our country) or at the very least, for the things we cannot produce ourselves, to dominate those countries who do through threat of economic or even military sanction.
5. It is openly expansionistic, with claims of needing to re-take old or new territory, constantly repeating our claims to Panama, Canada and Greenland.
6. It is openly lawless, relying on executive power and flouting rule of law as expressed by open defiance of Court orders up to and including the Supreme Court's.
7. It is anti-democratic, not merely casting doubt on the legitimacy of elections that do not go their way, but simply using extra-legal means to overturn elections that do not go their way up to and including violence.
8. It relies on a threatening legal apparatus/prerogative state to quash dissent.

It checks enough of Umberto Eco's 14 points of Fascism to be considered a Fascist movement.

HOWEVER, all that having been accounted for, you are forgetting one major thing that totally disproves it to be a fascist movement, NWRatCon: If it were a fascist movement, doubtless every red-blooded American conservative and libertarian both here on Debate Politics and in the country at large would roundly condemn MAGA and would fight against it. But because they have not, it cannot be a fascist movement. So your assessment just amounts to liberal hysteria, or something. QED.

 

[Risky Thicket]

It certainly differs from Italian and European fascism in many ways but fascism has always been a fluid ideology which makes it harder to identify and contain.

This time it is America’s richest who wish to directly take over the American government to cement their class rule instead of enlisting the aid of fascists themselves which does give an air of plausible deniability.

When the capitalist class feels their fortunes are at the biggest threat whether from foreign competition or actual socialist revolutions, they will eventually resort to fascism which aims to distract the common interests of working people into a fanatical rage against outsiders. Fascists hate working class organizations because they are organizations of those they class as beneath them which is why they violently suppress all labor unions as they are a threat to capital and the proper hierarchy of the strongest.

In America working class organizations have been decimated to a point where there is little working class power. This has not stopped America’s richest from freaking the **** out in the most paranoid delusions and the only tool the working class has to save themselves from the most exploitative actions of capitalists is the federal government. The rich see the federal government as a threat and know what they are doing is illegal so the bourgeoisie at the top has decided instead of giving donations to politicians, to take it over themselves.

This was also aided by Israel’s far right through AIPAC which figured they could get Trump in power so they can complete the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.

 

[CLAX1911]

No American is opposed to making America great.

Then why use the phrase as a slur? Why is the left always saying things they don't mean

But MAGA is just a slogan. What MAGA really stands for and what they're actually doing is quite different.

Make the case or I'll just consider it sour grapes

And no one is against deporting El Salvadorian gangsters either.

Why are judges demanding Trump invade El Salvador to bring back their precious gangsters that's had all the due process they were entitled to?

What we're actually against is the lack of due process and the government deporting innocent people to concentration camps outside the reach of our judicial system.

You're just being manipulated into believing there was no due process. When someone's determined to be an illegal alien it is due process that can be deported at that point. There doesn't need to be a trial we already know it's 100% fact. You can't prove your healer legally so there's no point in a trial.

 

[redbeer]

MAGA is definitely a fascist movement by every definition of the term but they don't see it. They truly don't see it. They are perfectly OK with unfettered Presidential authority, controlling of a free press, gutting of judicial powers, elimination of free speech, using the government's power against your political enemies, dictating academic curriculum etc. Not just OK , they celebrate it....that's fascism.

You just described liberal, progressive politics to a T. The last administration we saw a President with absolute authority ignoring and working around SC decisions with threats to the lives of these judges left unanswered and even applauded.....the censorship of the press to an extent of Nazi Germany.....the threat of the SC if decisions are not to the liking of the president they will be rendered useless by stacking the court......the entire DOJ used to attack, undermine, and prevent the Republican party's candidate from running or even being on the ballot.....the left's total takeover of our nations educational system has been ongoing for generations. You are what you accuse others.

 

[Along Came Jones]

If MAGA adherents need a bit of help forming an argument from a principle, maybe this will be the help, or not:

Make America Great Again's core principles are America's interests first (nationalism), advocating for the common folks against the elite and elite institutions (populism), and protecting American jobs and industries (economic protectionism).

Nothing inherently fascist about the principles as principles. With mixed success they've arisen in political movements at various times during our history. Make America Great Again'—Who Said It First? The saying actually has a long, bipartisan history in American politics. -- Emma Margolin, NBC News, 9/9/2016


If you accept these core principles as definitive, then to complete the argument you simply need to tack on your evidence. I would try to distinguish between MAGA (intent) and Trumpism (effect).

 

[Juin]

Accusing Trump of being Hitler 2 and of being a fascist is just more baseless far left extremist hyperbole.
The far left have call all of the Republican presidents Hitler 2 and a fascist.
It is part of the infantile nature of the Regressive Progressives.

The fascist label is worn out from over use