What "principle" of MAGA is not fascist in nature?

[Juks]

My post is meant to be historically correct. Review the history of populism in the United States. It began long before fascism had a name.

Thanks for the comment. I agree that populism in the United States has a long history, it goes back at least to the late 1800s with the Populist Party (People’s Party) and other movements that spoke for "the people against the elite".

However, my point is not to argue that MAGA is unique as a populist movement, but to highlight which specific traits MAGA shares with classic fascist movements (and what differences exist).

 

[NWRatCon]

Oh, seems like it’s MAGA that doesn’t understand fascism. Why am I not surprised? And I’m open to the idea that MAGA doesn’t realize it’s been hijacked by fascism… But then again, does it even matter? Here are some of the clearest parallels between MAGA and classical fascist movements:

1. Delegitimizing elections....

These traits mirror classic fascist features as outlined by thinkers like Umberto Eco (Ur-Fascism), Jason Stanley (How Fascism Works), and Madeleine Albright (Fascism: A Warning). You might want to read them

However, MAGA is not an exact copy. In some ways, it aligns more with Nazism than traditional Italian fascism – especially in its racialized messaging. It’s a hybrid of brown and black – fascist in nature, but with uniquely American traits. Still, there are areas where MAGA clearly differs from both fascism and Nazism. I'll give you a brief summary of what sets it apart in a seperate post, but even these points may evolve into facism in the future.

I like your outline of issues. Ironic that it still has to come from outside the movement. Not a lot of self-reflection from adherents.

 

[Juks]

I like your outline of issues. Ironic that it still has to come from outside the movement. Not a lot of self-reflection from adherents.

Yes, you’re right, but unfortunately it’s a result of the political climate and structure that both Republicans and Democrats have built up, essentially since your democracy was founded. Politics has been turned into a football game with identity politics as the team colors.

Research shows that Americans today not only keep away from the other team politically, but actually dislike the opposing side personally (so-called affective polarization). So it becomes not just a matter of policy, but a question of who you are as a person. Political Polarization in the American Public

At present, there is an endless amount of criticism that should be directed at the Biden administration and the Democrats by those who understand the catastrophic effect Trump will have on the US, but I see very little of it here, maybe you see more? So while you see a lack of reflection among MAGA supporters, I see it in the majority of Americans and, in fact, the crisis you’re about to enter might be the only way that things will be changing and , for politics to become politics and not just something more like a beauty pageant…

But of course, I am worried. I know little more than you about whether we will make it out on the other side. But I hope…

 

[aociswundumho]

As promised in my post above, Things That Distinguish MAGA from Both Fascism and Nazism:

Now let's see how socialism compares. Note that two of these three are very similar:

Category	MAGA	Socialist state	Nazism
Racial ideology / antisemitism	MAGA contains racist undertones (mainly toward Latinos, Muslims, Black people), but lacks a structured racial doctrine like in Nazism. No racial hygiene or forced sterilization.	Many socialist states have been racist, e.g. the Khmer Rouge, the GDR and others.	Nazism was built on racial biology, antisemitism, and the idea of a “pure Aryan race.”
Economic model	MAGA is market-oriented but protectionist. Advocates tax cuts and deregulation.	Massive state control.	Combined corporatism with massive state control and war-driven economy.
Role of religion	Strong ties to evangelical Christianity. Religion used as a political tool.	Typically hostile to religion. "Opium of the people" "Tool of the bourgeoisie"	Included occult ideas, but was practically anti-Christian, promoting “blood and soil.”
Leader cult	Trump has a strong personality cult, but not to the totalizing degree of Hitler or Mussolini.	Cult of Personality very common, e.g. Stalin, Mao, Kim	Hitler was Führer – an almost godlike figure.
Seizure of power	Trump tried to undermine elections, but has not abolished the constitution or created a dictatorship.YET	Virtually always a one party state. No free or fair elections.	Nazis abolished all free elections within a year of taking power.
Mass mobilization	No unified militia or party army (though groups like Proud Boys, Oath Keepers exist).	Cheka, KGB, Stasi, Red Guards, etc.	SA/SS were key to Nazi terror and part of the state apparatus.
Imperialism / expansion	MAGA is isolationist and opposes foreign “nation building.”(But Trump is talking about expending US borders with Canada, Greenland and Panama)	The USSR was imperialist and pushed for global communism.	Nazism pursued Lebensraum and total global hegemony.

Support for some claims leftists might question:

Soviet empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Racial Discrimination in the Cambodian Genocide | MacMillan Center for International and Area Studies at Yale

macmillan.yale.edu

African Experiences in East Germany Are Erased but Not Forgotten

The stories of Black people who came to the GDR for training and work are slowly being recovered, but Cold War alliances have left bitter legacies

newlinesmag.com

 

[NWRatCon]

As promised in my post above, Things That Distinguish MAGA from Both Fascism and Nazism:

I like your approach, although I'll address where I disagree with your conclusions. In general, though, what is demonstrated that MAGA is an nascent fascist movement (I use the term fascist as it is the more generic term for right-wing authoritarianism). Some of the distinctions are of not-yet-implemented aspirations, which is why I initiated the discussion by talking about "principles".

To the details:

Racial ideology/antisemitism. Here I just disagree. First, the movement is expressly supremacist in nature. The constant attacks on DEI are the prime exemplar. Against Diversity - firing leaders of color, in particular, and promoting almost exclusively white men into positions of authority; Equity - completely absent, as loyalty is the prime determinant; and Inclusion - the entire movement is exclusionary - against any non-white population. This is manifested in many ways including DOGE cuts; the unrelenting attack on immigrants (of all kinds, not just "illegal" immigrants), focusing on non-white immigrants from non-white and, to some extent, non-Christian countries; and attacking urban areas on the basis of racial makeup.

Economic model. Again, this is consistent with fascist ideology, rather than a distinction. It is true that not all fascist models approach economics the same way, but here's where MAGA leadership deviates from the followers. I would assert that most MAGA adherents profess suspicion of economic elites, but their behavior belies that profession. Rather, the movement leadership is aligned in an oligarchic-fascist model similar to Putin and Orban, and the rank and file have so far supported this arrangement.

Role of religion. As with other fascist movements, religion is used as a power base ("Gott mit uns" sound familiar?) It is used to facilitate and condition followers into accepting party dictates and policies, and inspire fanaticism.

Leader cult. Enough said. Completely consistent and as fervent as either Hitler's or Mussolini's.

Seizure of power. Attempted (Jan 6), and currently underway. The extensive use of EOs to assert power not in the constitutional charter.

Mass mobilization. Again, underway. This is being furthered in unconventional ways: The pardon of violent followers and other criminal supporters; the installation of loyalists to head law enforcement and military agencies; using military and law enforcement assets in unconstitutional manners. ICE, in particular, is operating as a secret police force and as shock troops.

Imperialism / expansion. Here again, leadership is ahead of the rank and file, but they are being brought along.

 

[Aristaeus]

I would like to go on record here by way of saying that Miley Cyrus is fascist.



Whew, that's a relief. I finally joined the disturbed children's bandwagon of "everybody I don't like is fascist"

Funny, because I don't remember liberals calling Dubya a fascist, or Reagan, or Bush Sr.

 

[Along Came Jones]

Populism =\= fascism.

I gave you a thumbs up because you stumped me. I don't recognize the notation. My guess interpretation is that populism and fascism are different set categories.

 

[Juks]

Racial ideology/antisemitism. Here I just disagree. First, the movement is expressly supremacist in nature. The constant attacks on DEI are the prime exemplar. Against Diversity - firing leaders of color, in particular, and promoting almost exclusively white men into positions of authority; Equity - completely absent, as loyalty is the prime determinant; and Inclusion - the entire movement is exclusionary - against any non-white population. This is manifested in many ways including DOGE cuts; the unrelenting attack on immigrants (of all kinds, not just "illegal" immigrants), focusing on non-white immigrants from non-white and, to some extent, non-Christian countries; and attacking urban areas on the basis of racial makeup.

Economic model. Again, this is consistent with fascist ideology, rather than a distinction. It is true that not all fascist models approach economics the same way, but here's where MAGA leadership deviates from the followers. I would assert that most MAGA adherents profess suspicion of economic elites, but their behavior belies that profession. Rather, the movement leadership is aligned in an oligarchic-fascist model similar to Putin and Orban, and the rank and file have so far supported this arrangement.

Role of religion. As with other fascist movements, religion is used as a power base ("Gott mit uns" sound familiar?) It is used to facilitate and condition followers into accepting party dictates and policies, and inspire fanaticism.

Leader cult. Enough said. Completely consistent and as fervent as either Hitler's or Mussolini's.

Seizure of power. Attempted (Jan 6), and currently underway. The extensive use of EOs to assert power not in the constitutional charter.

Mass mobilization. Again, underway. This is being furthered in unconventional ways: The pardon of violent followers and other criminal supporters; the installation of loyalists to head law enforcement and military agencies; using military and law enforcement assets in unconstitutional manners. ICE, in particular, is operating as a secret police force and as shock troops.

Imperialism / expansion. Here again, leadership is ahead of the rank and file, but they are being brought along.

Your response is a well-structured, almost pithy account of how MAGA mobilization meets the core criteria for a ”nascent fascist movement.” You manage to capture the through-line across every category: from racial ideology to mass mobilization. Even though I could argue that MAGA is not yet identical to 1930s fascism in every formal respect, you point to a pattern in which the historical differences shrink the further some MAGA leaders go down their authoritarian path. That makes your conclusion very hard to dismiss. At the same time, we’re not that far apart. As I wrote in my last post, I am just as worried as you are.

But I think the real difference might be that I see Trump,or someone like him,as inevitable within the political system the Democrats and Republicans have built. Sooner or later, an authoritarian leader seems unavoidable, as far as I can tell, and maybe (just maybe) it’s a ”blessing in disguise” that it’s an idiot like Trump driving this trend rather than a more sophisticated Hitler-style figure. Look how quickly capital surrenders democracy,even in Europe; look how fast companies adapt by not only changing their policies but even renaming things like the ‘Mexican Gulf.’ It took three seconds. And in Sweden, our capitalist establishment has already cut a deal with Nvidia to lock down AI development so that smaller innovators can’t enter the market. Sweden is supposed to be known for its innovative climate… Maybe that is why Nvidia made the deal with the Swedish elite and not the french or the German. Also, notice how rapidly countries outside Europe are bolstering their authoritarian systems in Trump’s shadow. If Trump hadn’t been an idiot who’s going to tank the US economy at record speed, perhaps democracy would have already ended here and now. He will drive you into the ground, sure, but maybe that’s what’s needed for you to build a better democratic system that lasts longer than four months.

But off course, it is not without risk.

 

[NWRatCon]

Your response is a well-structured, almost pithy account of how MAGA mobilization meets the core criteria for a ”nascent fascist movement.” You manage to capture the through-line across every category: from racial ideology to mass mobilization. Even though I could argue that MAGA is not yet identical to 1930s fascism in every formal respect, you point to a pattern in which the historical differences shrink the further some MAGA leaders go down their authoritarian path. That makes your conclusion very hard to dismiss. At the same time, we’re not that far apart. As I wrote in my last post, I am just as worried as you are.

But I think the real difference might be that I see Trump,or someone like him,as inevitable within the political system the Democrats and Republicans have built. Sooner or later, an authoritarian leader seems unavoidable, as far as I can tell, and maybe (just maybe) it’s a ”blessing in disguise” that it’s an idiot like Trump driving this trend rather than a more sophisticated Hitler-style figure. Look how quickly capital surrenders democracy,even in Europe; look how fast companies adapt by not only changing their policies but even renaming things like the ‘Mexican Gulf.’ It took three seconds. And in Sweden, our capitalist establishment has already cut a deal with Nvidia to lock down AI development so that smaller innovators can’t enter the market. Sweden is supposed to be known for its innovative climate… Maybe that is why Nvidia made the deal with the Swedish elite and not the french or the German. Also, notice how rapidly countries outside Europe are bolstering their authoritarian systems in Trump’s shadow. If Trump hadn’t been an idiot who’s going to tank the US economy at record speed, perhaps democracy would have already ended here and now. He will drive you into the ground, sure, but maybe that’s what’s needed for you to build a better democratic system that lasts longer than four months.

But off course, it is not without risk.

I agree we're on the same page. I also appreciated your references, earlier. I'll add Ann Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, Ruth Ben-Ghiat's Strongmen, and Timothy Snyder's On Tyranny.

I think it's also important to recognize that the methods of fascism have adapted to the modern context. Some refer to the modern approach as "Democratic backsiding" or even "Democratic Fascism" - fascist movements gaining power not through revolution or coup, but through elections, then maintaining power through manipulation of the existing structure, a la Morduro, or Orban, or Putin. Sometimes referred to as a "self coup".

Or Trump, who essentially executed a hostile takeover of the existing Republican party (similar to, but less violent than, Hitler's takeover of the National Socialists).

 

[NWRatCon]

That said "Maduro" when I typed it.