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- Jul 21, 2005
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So far.....out of 36 poll respondents, only 5 are identifying themselves as Republicans, & I don't think DP is a bastion of liberal voters.
While this is not a scientific study by any means, I do think it's a decent indication of the trouble today's GOP has in trying to win future national elections.
You are trying to postulate that somehow low numbers of people that identify as "Republicans" will hurt them at the voting box. I think this is a faulty and illogical assumptions based on little facts and a misreading of the evidence presented. For this to be the case all, or at least a large portion, of those conservatives who did not identify themselves as part of the Republican Party would need to either vote 3rd party, vote democrats, or not vote. I would dare say, from the history and statements of many of these posters, that in reality the majority of said people would still be voting for the Republican nominee in electoins. As such, just because they don't identify themselves with the Republican Party at this current moment does not mean it will cause any damage or noticable shift in the Republicans votes.
You guys can come up with all kinds of fantasy explanations for the Republican Party's woes ("they have abandoned traditional conservatism" and so on), but its actually quite simple. The GOP's traditional demographic, angry white men over 40 and conservative evangelicals, is a shrinking one. Until the party moderates and thus expands its base, it will most likely continue to lose national elections baring some complete implosion on the part of the Democrats.
You guys can come up with all kinds of fantasy explanations for the Republican Party's woes ("they have abandoned traditional conservatism" and so on), but its actually quite simple. The GOP's traditional demographic, angry white men over 40 and conservative evangelicals, is a shrinking one. Until the party moderates and thus expands its base, it will most likely continue to lose national elections baring some complete implosion on the part of the Democrats.
If I'm reading you correctly, I think what I'm hearing you say is that just because many ex-Republicans are dissatisfied with the present GOP & have been for many years now, that THAT will not hurt the GOP in future elections???
If that is what you're saying I disagree. Political parties cannot thrive if they have no real support but simply rely on people voting against their opponents. I think most voters want to believe IN something & not just AGAINST things.
Let's look at a specific example:
How many votes do you suppose McCain lost when disaffected Republicans split the GOP vote & voted for Ron Paul?.....Granted, that did not alone lose the election for the GOP, but I think it was a factor which is increasing...not decreasing.
I only see that situation worsening for the GOP as more & more ex-Republicans search for a party that truly represents conservatives again & drops the Born-Again, Nation Building, Crusading Neocons who presently lead the GOP.
Devil, when did you become a moderate? Did you fall and hit your head on the ground this morning? If your views are those of a moderate, then God help us all.
I left the Republican party a few years ago. They abandoned their fiscally conservative principles in favor of special interests and big government. Until they return to their principles, they can no longer count me as "one of theirs". I'd say I fall more in line with the Libertarian party than I do with the Republican party, but I've never been one to "toe the line" of any party.
While I agree with you in regards to nation building and such, I reject the notion again that...no surprise, yet again, its only a liberal democrat pushing it...the republicans must shun their social side to be viable, or that somehow is what will save them, is foolish and will do nothing but further expediate the stagnation of the Republican Party. The answer is not jettisoning a group, but balancing out the platform amongst all groups.
OK.....So why do YOU think many conservatives are dissatisfied with the GOP? (specifically, where have I misread their dissatisfaction?)No, I'm not saying that people being disatisfied with the GOP won't hurt them. What I'm saying is based on your statements here and in other threads about this topic I don't believe the REASON you think people are disatisfied with the GOP is correct, and thus are over shooting your hypothesis here. (I'm referencing the "did the republicans go to far" thread).
America is a forgiving nation but today's GOP leaders admit no blame, feel no guilt & want to pretend that the last 8 years never happened. They are not asking for forgiveness & obviously don't feel the need to do so.If Republicans get back into power and you have a similar problem that happened in the past 8 years I do think there is going to be extremely hard time for the GOP ahead. However, I think its going to need to happen that second time. The whole "Fool me once, fool me twice" type of situation. America, as has said often, is a very forgiving country and I think that the majority of conservative voters are going to be giving the Republicans one more good shot to see if they can actually do and act like they represented themselves when getting voted in.
If it's true...what difference does it make who says it?....But, in reality..I never said that.While I agree with you in regards to nation building and such, I reject the notion again that...no surprise, yet again, its only a liberal democrat pushing it.....the republicans must shun their social side to be viable, or that somehow is what will save them, is foolish and will do nothing but further expediate the stagnation of the Republican Party. The answer is not jettisoning a group, but balancing out the platform amongst all groups..
You guys can come up with all kinds of fantasy explanations for the Republican Party's woes ("they have abandoned traditional conservatism" and so on), but its actually quite simple. The GOP's traditional demographic, angry white men over 40 and conservative evangelicals, is a shrinking one. Until the party moderates and thus expands its base, it will most likely continue to lose national elections baring some complete implosion on the part of the Democrats.
So far.....out of 36 poll respondents, only 5 are identifying themselves as Republicans, & I don't think DP is a bastion of liberal voters.
While this is not a scientific study by any means, I do think it's a decent indication of the trouble today's GOP has in trying to win future national elections.
The party doesnt need to moderate they need to pragmatise their message. Honest intelligent positions need to replace "moral" "Religious" hot button issues, pragmatism needs to replace talking points. Conservatives need to realise that having the goverment regulate womens bodies, and sexual relations of adults is counter to our idealogy, war against drugs is a war against individual responsibility. We need to go back to the basics of our idealogy:
Lower taxes, tax based incentives, reduction of spending, pro American business regulations and trade policy etc
Simply: Individualism, Patriotism, Fair Market, and defence of American values.
But doesn't pragmatism automatically imply moderation?
Zyphlin's posts are right on. The reason a number of conservatives and libertarians no longer identify with the Republican Party is because the party moved away from us, not that we moved away from the party. And he may be right in saying that it isn't necessarily going to hurt the GOP. A vast majority of the folks leaving the Republican ranks are not going to turn around and join the Democrats.
Which brings me to my question for the conservatives and libertarians in this thread who have broken away from the GOP. What will it take to get you back? The Republicans are now making some noise about the principles we hold dear. Of course its easy to advocate less government when you have no chance of pushing forward your own agenda. For me, its going to take more than just endorsing and co-opting tea party protests and opposing the Democratic vision of government. Talk is cheap is this point. I need to see action. I want some real attempts to push forward a conservative/libertarian agenda.
Until then, my votes, my donations, and my volunteerism will either stay at home or go third party candidates I can support in good conscience. If the Republicans (or anyone) can win us back after the disgrace of the last 8 years were with a few empty slogans and promises, then we're naive enough to deserve what we get.
Because many of the most die-hard Republicans on this site are too embarassed to admit it and now call themselves "Libertarians".
I think the GOP needs to be replaced. This last go around with Bush and their love affair with big government, big war, big spending, big deficit, big brother government has shown a lack of resolve and integrity which cannot go unheeded. They have shown that they are more than willing to sell out their ideology, platform, and constituents if it suits their quest and thirst for power. I don't know what they could do to get me back other than disband and create a different party which is committed to small government policies in real terms.
That, or clone Ron Paul.
Libertarianism is a relativistic term (one might argue whether Hitler or Stalin was more libertarian), but in the context of American politics it means being notably more libertarian than the mainstream. According to me this means:
- If they don't believe in the strongest possible protection of physical property rights, then they're not libertarians.
- If they believe in the enforcement of ANY "victimless crimes" (sex, drugs, etc), then they're not libertarians.
- If they believe government spending should be above 10% of the GDP, then they're not libertarians.
- If they don't agree that the military can be 80% as effective in providing actual defense (which is still way more than is necessary) for 20% the cost, then they're not libertarians.
- If they want to use government force to protect little birdies, then they're not libertarians.
Any questions?
Do you enjoy the knowledge you will never have any representation in our government?
That's speculation, obviously. Just because the two-party system has been perpetuated for quite some time does not mean it will last forever.Do you enjoy the knowledge you will never have any representation in our government?
Do you enjoy the knowledge that there is a ruthless mafia gang out there somewhere that you're not a part of?
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