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What is "victory"?

Inuyasha

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Bush is saying he will stay the course until final "victory" is achieved. Others are saying that "victory" in Iraq is impossible. And still others are taking about "limited victory." The who thing seems to be a semantical problem
It is certain that with regard to Iraq victory has nothing to do with "victory" as we know it in any conflict up to now. What is YOUR definition of "victory" in Iraq?
 

Mikkel

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'victory', when it is in a counter-insurgency conflict is an extremely subjective term. That's why so many Democrats are calling for a timetable. They're worried that 'as long as it takes' will be far too long. I bet they'd be happier if Bush simply put out a speech stating concrete goals to be accomplished before it can be considered a 'victory'. So far, all we're getting is rhetoric and vague answers from the president, and I think that's why he's hurting in the polls so much.
 

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There is no clear cut victory unless the the insurgents all decide to embrace Shiite leadership and live in harmony.
 

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Mikkel said:
'victory', when it is in a counter-insurgency conflict is an extremely subjective term. That's why so many Democrats are calling for a timetable. They're worried that 'as long as it takes' will be far too long. I bet they'd be happier if Bush simply put out a speech stating concrete goals to be accomplished before it can be considered a 'victory'. So far, all we're getting is rhetoric and vague answers from the president, and I think that's why he's hurting in the polls so much.
Yer kidding, right?
Victory, as defined by the Administration:

As the central front in the global war on terror, success in Iraq is an essential element in the long war against the ideology that breeds international terrorism. Unlike past wars, however, victory in Iraq will not come in the form of an enemy's surrender, or be signaled by a single particular event -- there will be no Battleship Missouri, no Appomattox. The ultimate victory will be achieved in stages, and we expect:

In the short term:
An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy.
In the medium term:
An Iraq that is in the lead defeating terrorists and insurgents and providing its own security, with a constitutional, elected government in place, providing an inspiring example to reformers in the region, and well on its way to achieving its economic potential.
In the longer term:
An Iraq that has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency.
An Iraq that is peaceful, united, stable, democratic, and secure, where Iraqis have the institutions and resources they need to govern themselves justly and provide security for their country.
An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html#part1

Given these terms, I'd say we're getting verry close to achieving our short-term goals and are heading strongly towards our medium term goals.
 

Inuyasha

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M14 Shooter said:
In the short term:
An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html#part1

Given these terms, I'd say we're getting verry close to achieving our short-term goals and are heading strongly towards our medium term goals.
I am addressing only the short term goals here. That' s why I have edited out the other two sections.

I would say that if anyone is making progress (and that of course is a matter of opinion that can be argued both ways effectively) it is the USA that is making any progress at all. Iraq is letting the US do the lion's share of the work here and that does nothing to insure an "Iraqi" victory.

Some political milesstones have been met but not enough to insure "overall" victory, But the other questions is will these milestones stand up to a severe test or are they paper milestones. We don't know until they are effectively tested.

In the end victory will belong to the Iraqis and not to us. We will have to be off the scene to judge weather we have accomplished victory or not. That seems a paradox but it is true. We only knew that Japan was a truly democratic nation when the occupation was over and the country survived five years on its own and THEN there were still US troops stationed there.

Depending on HOW CLOSE is Weather I agree or not, What do you mean by "very close"? In my mind we are not very close but rather "closing in slowly" on our primary goals.

The other problem is having a strategy. I just watched Stephan Hadley. the National Security Adviser being interviewed. He was asked what our strategy was in Iraq and all he did was repeat over and over the desires or if you will "the wish list" but he never spoke clearly on the strategy to obtain these desires. Following him was Senator Barbara Boxer. When the same questions were asked of her she too gave only a vague "wish list" but offered no strategy to accomplish her wish list. You might argue that "strategy" is secret. I disagree completely 99% of the time the strategy is obvious and the enemy is aware of it. What is secret are the "tactics" used to attain strategical sauces. After listening to Hadley and Boxer, all I can say to the government in Washington is "Shall we dance?".
 

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that's not defining victory, it's describing it. How many iraqi troops do we need to train before there are enough? 'As many as it takes' is not a specific answer.

"meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy."

This entire list of goals is a mix of vagueries and non-commitals.

Please, would you tell me what 'tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy' entails?

what the heck are 'political milestones'?

what defines the proper maintenance of security?

what democratic institutions need to be built?

Is there any type of objective way to look at these goals and know whether or not they are fulfilled? This is not a definition of victory by a long shot, and this is just for the short term goals. The middle-long term goals become even less specific. This isn't a plan, it's what George W. Bush is hoping to get for Christmas. But he hasn't been a good boy this year, and will probably be getting coal in his stocking (oil, if he's lucky).
 

stsburns

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Inuyasha said:
Bush is saying he will stay the course until final "victory" is achieved. Others are saying that "victory" in Iraq is impossible. And still others are taking about "limited victory." The who thing seems to be a semantical problem
It is certain that with regard to Iraq victory has nothing to do with "victory" as we know it in any conflict up to now. What is YOUR definition of "victory" in Iraq?
Inuyasha do you watch CNN? Caned Nuts Network?
 

Inuyasha

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stsburns said:
Inuyasha do you watch CNN? Caned Nuts Network?
I have watched them all (cable news reviews) but now I don't watch them too much. I've grown up TVwise. i am into serious TV now. Mainly the Cartoon Channel.
 

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Inuyasha said:
I have watched them all (cable news reviews) but now I don't watch them too much. I've grown up TVwise. i am into serious TV now. Mainly the Cartoon Channel.
:rofl Yep, need to take a break from the news every now and then. :lol:
 

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M14 Shooter said:
Yer kidding, right?
Victory, as defined by the Administration:

As the central front in the global war on terror, success in Iraq is an essential element in the long war against the ideology that breeds international terrorism. Unlike past wars, however, victory in Iraq will not come in the form of an enemy's surrender, or be signaled by a single particular event -- there will be no Battleship Missouri, no Appomattox. The ultimate victory will be achieved in stages, and we expect:

In the short term:
An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency, meeting political milestones; building democratic institutions; standing up robust security forces to gather intelligence, destroy terrorist networks, and maintain security; and tackling key economic reforms to lay the foundation for a sound economy.
In the medium term:
An Iraq that is in the lead defeating terrorists and insurgents and providing its own security, with a constitutional, elected government in place, providing an inspiring example to reformers in the region, and well on its way to achieving its economic potential.
In the longer term:
An Iraq that has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency.
An Iraq that is peaceful, united, stable, democratic, and secure, where Iraqis have the institutions and resources they need to govern themselves justly and provide security for their country.
An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/iraq_strategy_nov2005.html#part1

Given these terms, I'd say we're getting verry close to achieving our short-term goals and are heading strongly towards our medium term goals.
"An Iraq that is making steady progress in fighting terrorists and neutralizing the insurgency" is the "short term" goal.

Upon what basis do you contend we are "very close" to achieving this goal?

If it takes us 3 years to achieve a short term goal, how long does it take to achieve the long term goal?

When does the US withdraw the troops? When the long term goal is achieved?
 

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As a nation I believe that we are starting to fall into a “Killing is my business and business is good” type scenario. Auto manufactures are shutting down, the airline industry is in ruin, the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap, sports are over hyped, education is in the toilet, and we’re behind the technological eight ball; so all that is left is war.

War is the greatest export we have. The money made by dealing in oil and weapons manufacture is up a great deal. We live I a time and age where you can through a dart at a globe and there is “reason” for US troops to be there (all except home of course).

This is what we do we make war. We tell a people to join to get an education and then send them off to die before they can learn. And if they survive then they have PTSD.

Bush wants to import immigrants to do the work the Americans don’t want; even going so far as to offering them citizenship in return. I say train them and send them overseas to fight our wars.

Kind of a “Revenge of the Clones Thing”.
 

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YNKYH8R said:
As a nation I believe that we are starting to fall into a “Killing is my business and business is good” type scenario. Auto manufactures are shutting down, the airline industry is in ruin, the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap, sports are over hyped, education is in the toilet, and we’re behind the technological eight ball; so all that is left is war.
Who's fault is it why we are behind in technology? GM is having a rough couple of months, doesn't count as shutting down? Airline industry is in a bine because of 9/11? Oh I love this qoute "the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap", I will use it to question your last statement. Actually I can't find anyone that has statistical data of schools failing? They would have to have information from a Board of Education?
War is the greatest export we have. The money made by dealing in oil and weapons manufacture is up a great deal. We live I a time and age where you can through a dart at a globe and there is “reason” for US troops to be there (all except home of course).
Agreed, except for the dart metaphor.
This is what we do we make war. We tell a people to join to get an education and then send them off to die before they can learn. And if they survive then they have PTSD.
I actually know alot of people who have gone to war, and are continuing education? You on the other hand, just make bogus statements.
Bush wants to import immigrants to do the work the Americans don’t want; even going so far as to offering them citizenship in return. I say train them and send them overseas to fight our wars.
Good Idea!

Kind of a “Revenge of the Clones Thing”.
You contradict your first statement? "the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap" WTF? What does cloning Job of the Hut, have to do with politics? Once again I state "How can their be inconsistancy in Entertainment"-Micheal Moore
 

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Auto manufactures are shutting down
Either pretty selective memory or deliberately ignoring a large part of the auto industry...

Agreed, GM and Ford in trouble. But, they are not the whole industry. There are new billion dollar plants in existence or under construction in other parts of the country by the likes Hyundai, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes. Customers are voting with their wallets, and are willing to pay premiums (in the form of smaller rebates/incentives: about $1k for non-US mfgrs vs about $3500 for GM & F) for the perceived higher quality of other makes.
 

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oldreliable67 said:
Either pretty selective memory or deliberately ignoring a large part of the auto industry...

Agreed, GM and Ford in trouble. But, they are not the whole industry. There are new billion dollar plants in existence or under construction in other parts of the country by the likes Hyundai, Nissan, Honda, BMW, Mercedes. Customers are voting with their wallets, and are willing to pay premiums (in the form of smaller rebates/incentives: about $1k for non-US mfgrs vs about $3500 for GM & F) for the perceived higher quality of other makes.
I can't help but notice that all of the auto-industries you named as doing well are foreign car makers. Yes, they do have plants in the United States, but the decline of American car companies (in part due to the fact that their development of gas guzzling bohemoths is backwards thinking in an age of rising gas prices alongside the fact that they make crappy cars) is most telling of America's economy overall.
 

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Yep, and it is no accident that the car companies that are doing well in the US are those that have 1) a significantly less proportion of unionized work force, 2) have a high perceived level of quality among American consumers (as evidenced by their JD Power rankings over the last 10 years), 3) are located outside of the midwest (mostly in the south and southeast) in lower wage areas, and 4) have a history of innovative products that appeal to US consumers and have introduced those products on a much more timely basis than US mfgrs.
 

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stsburns said:
Who's fault is it why we are behind in technology?
I don't know you tell me...


stsburns said:
You contradict your first statement? "the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap" WTF? What does cloning Job of the Hut, have to do with politics? Once again I state "How can their be inconsistancy in Entertainment"-Micheal Moore
What?!? "Job of the Hut"? What are you talking about?

When I said an "Attack of the clones thing" I was refering to the idea of using immigrants to fight our wars for us, like a disposable army, like an army of clones, like the movie......follow?
 

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stsburns said:
GM is having a rough couple of months, doesn't count as shutting down? Airline industry is in a bine because of 9/11? Oh I love this qoute "the regular cinema attractions are rehashed crap", I will use it to question your last statement. Actually I can't find anyone that has statistical data of schools failing? They would have to have information from a Board of Education?
GM is shutting down how many plants? laying off woh many workers? The airline industry ina bine because of 9/11....so it's still happening isn't it? What difference does it make for the cause? Job loss is job loss. Chapter 11 is chapter 11. Yes cinema attractions are rehashed crap, this summer the amount of money brought in by tickwet revenue and theater viewer ship was at it's lowest since 1995. Schools failing...lack of teachers...lack of funding...funding cut...school shootings....debates on intellegent design....and there is probably more.
 

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YNKYH8R said:
I don't know you tell me...
Electronics manufacturers are not getting enough new exports from Japan, were most of our electronics in America come from. Hey did you know that Japan had picture phones in the early 1990's?

What?!? "Job of the Hut"? What are you talking about?
All of the clones in the movies, were cloned from Job of the Hut, which was an assassin. I was just being a Star Wars Geek for a moment.

When I said an "Attack of the clones thing" I was refering to the idea of using immigrants to fight our wars for us, like a disposable army, like an army of clones, like the movie......follow?
So you see immigrants as a useless group of people? I do agree with you that inlisting them would help with wars, and give them good paying jobs. But to say they would be a "disposable army" not only undermines war but also latinos.
 

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YNKYH8R said:
GM is shutting down how many plants?
12 plants? http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05326/610445.stm
laying off woh many workers?
can't keep count, But either way layoffs do not matter. Layoffs happen all the time in corporations, its part of the disclamier sheet you have to sign to join the corp. They knew the risk when they took the job. Just because some news network says that GM is shutting down, doesn't mean they are.
The airline industry ina bine because of 9/11....so it's still happening isn't it?
Yes, because people still feel unsafe flying.
What difference does it make for the cause? Job loss is job loss. Chapter 11 is chapter 11.
Ranting?
Yes cinema attractions are rehashed crap, this summer the amount of money brought in by tickwet revenue and theater viewer ship was at it's lowest since 1995.
Have a source, or where you heard it from. Or is this a debate against P2P networks?
Schools failing...lack of teachers...lack of funding...funding cut...school shootings....debates on intellegent design....and there is probably more.
Actually schools are given money at the begining of the year, and schools have to preemptively guess how much it is going to cost to run the next year. Then the state government takes back money to pay to run other programs. Its strange but true. I heard it from the Carteret County Board of Educations Advisor.

Lack of teachers is because of school funding. Carteret County Board of Educations Advisor, said that schools love to hire new workers. Because its an easy $26,000 paycheck. It is easier to pay for someone who is new, than it is for someone who is over qualified.

School shootings hmm...children shoot other childern and teachers because they have had enough. They have enough being laughed at, pushed around, bullied, that they had the balls to take action against it.

Intellegent design will never be debated in schools because Atheism and Materialism has taken over our schools. Ex: Prom. Prom has to do with sex, pictures, expensive dating, none of which support intellegent design. Personally unless the Athiests somehow loose political power at our schools, is going to be the only intellegent design will ever be taught in public school, other than Christian clubs.
 

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stsburns said:
Electronics manufacturers are not getting enough new exports from Japan, were most of our electronics in America come from. Hey did you know that Japan had picture phones in the early 1990's?


All of the clones in the movies, were cloned from Job of the Hut, which was an assassin. I was just being a Star Wars Geek for a moment.


So you see immigrants as a useless group of people? I do agree with you that inlisting them would help with wars, and give them good paying jobs. But to say they would be a "disposable army" not only undermines war but also latinos.
What are you touched? The clones weren’t cloned from Jengo Fett (Boba Fett’s Father) Job of the Hut? Who the hell is that? Jabba the Hutt maybe? He’s a notorious gangster within the Hutt clan.
 

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YNKYH8R said:
What are you touched? The clones weren’t cloned from Jengo Fett (Boba Fett’s Father) Job of the Hut? Who the hell is that? Jabba the Hutt maybe? He’s a notorious gangster within the Hutt clan.
:slapme: Nevermind....
 

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stsburns said:
12 plants? http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05326/610445.stm

can't keep count, But either way layoffs do not matter. Layoffs happen all the time in corporations, its part of the disclamier sheet you have to sign to join the corp. They knew the risk when they took the job. Just because some news network says that GM is shutting down, doesn't mean they are.
Yes, because people still feel unsafe flying.
Ranting?
Have a source, or where you heard it from. Or is this a debate against P2P networks?
Actually schools are given money at the begining of the year, and schools have to preemptively guess how much it is going to cost to run the next year. Then the state government takes back money to pay to run other programs. Its strange but true. I heard it from the Carteret County Board of Educations Advisor.

Lack of teachers is because of school funding. Carteret County Board of Educations Advisor, said that schools love to hire new workers. Because its an easy $26,000 paycheck. It is easier to pay for someone who is new, than it is for someone who is over qualified.

School shootings hmm...children shoot other childern and teachers because they have had enough. They have enough being laughed at, pushed around, bullied, that they had the balls to take action against it.

Intellegent design will never be debated in schools because Atheism and Materialism has taken over our schools. Ex: Prom. Prom has to do with sex, pictures, expensive dating, none of which support intellegent design. Personally unless the Athiests somehow loose political power at our schools, is going to be the only intellegent design will ever be taught in public school, other than Christian clubs.
Well I guess I was wrong there isn't a damn thing wrong with this country.
 

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oldreliable67 said:
Yep, and it is no accident that the car companies that are doing well in the US are those that have 1) a significantly less proportion of unionized work force, 2) have a high perceived level of quality among American consumers (as evidenced by their JD Power rankings over the last 10 years), 3) are located outside of the midwest (mostly in the south and southeast) in lower wage areas, and 4) have a history of innovative products that appeal to US consumers and have introduced those products on a much more timely basis than US mfgrs.
You forgot to mention that they're more reliable too. You don't have to trade them in because they'll break down after 100,000 miles.
 

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stsburns said:
So you see immigrants as a useless group of people? I do agree with you that inlisting them would help with wars, and give them good paying jobs. But to say they would be a "disposable army" not only undermines war but also latinos.
I was being fecicious.
 

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YNKYH8R said:
Well I guess I was wrong there isn't a damn thing wrong with this country.
.../sarcasm?
 
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