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What is the purpose of gun control?[W:248]

Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

And what I said was that military distinctions are irrelevant. And so are specialized categories for specialized purposes like unemployment statistics. We are talking about how society looks at police officers and the dictionaries accurately reflect that by stating that they ARE NOT CIVILIANS.

But tell me EB, when did the right start this fight to rewrite the dictionary? At what date did this suddenly become a cause celebre when dictionaries for generations now have been saying that police are not civilians? Can you answer that honestly?

i posted dictionaries of 1856, 1913 1828, 1912, among many, were they rewritten by the ....right as you say?
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

i posted dictionaries of 1856, 1913 1828, 1912, among many, were they rewritten by the ....right as you say?

I did not see any links identifying them as such. Dictionaries written before the idea of professional police departments who have a para-military structure and organization would be useless in such an effort and should not be used as they do NOT reflect the time in which we live in and the time we are discussing.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

So me owning guns makes me "not think of the children".

No. When I see obvious zealots preaching what teachers should do with crying and scared children when confronted by guns months after Sandy Hook because it is contrary to their political agenda - that is the persons I am talking about.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

I did not see any links identifying them as such. Dictionaries written before the idea of professional police departments who have a para-military structure and organization would be useless in such an effort and should not be used as they do NOT reflect the time in which we live in and the time we are discussing.

i find this amazing, first you say...you don't see the links, then without seeing them which you claim, ....you dismiss them.

the links are there, you just didn't want to see them
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Your answer makes no sense. What dictionary do you know of that is written by morons and lets see the verifiable evidence for your claim of fact.

For the record, you're the one who claimed their dictionary did just that.

Edit: Apologies. I apparently read too fast and misunderstood what you said. The evidence that there is a dictionary written by morons was provided by you when you said,

Oh - and I just took your advice and looked up the word PROVES in the dictionary. Yes - this incident does indeed prove my argument.

If your dictionary says that an anecdote about a peaceful demonstration proves a need for gun control, it was written by morons. There is no other explanation for how you got from point A to point B. Well, there is, but pointing it out would be a violation of forum rules, and I'm nothing if not a rule-follower. :lol:

So you are NOT a teacher and have no experience but yet you see fit to pontificate from ob high about their job, their duties and their responsibilities? Got it.

Damn straight. Teaching is not rocket surgery. I know what the duties of a teacher are. And they do not include indoctrinating my children with incorrect information about guns and their owners. Luckily my children don't piss themselves at the sight of what was - to anyone but a complete imbecile - obviously a peaceful demonstration. And when one of my son's teachers started in on an anti-gun tirade, let's just say the student became the master. On more than one occasion he has put a teacher on their heals when they start feeding lies to their students.

Take it from somebody who was a teacher for 33 years and was involved deeply in policy for the entire staff and district: any teacher who insisted on crying and upset children continuing to participate in a field trip where they felt unsafe would NOT be praised for their insistence to teach them what you want to teach them. In fact, I suspect from experience they would have hell to pay explaining such a decision.

I couldn't possibly care less what your experience has told you. And I feel sorry for any students who are forced to learn from teachers who share your limited view of rights. Any teacher worth his salt would have taken the children aside and explained that what was going on was a peaceful demonstration, that the guns posed no danger to them, and that what they were witnessing was representative democracy in action. They would also explain that you don't have to like the ideas that they are promoting, and that is what makes our country great.

But I suspect that your students were never given that kind of message, and for that reason I pity them.

In fact, I don't take at face value your account of the incident as it is told. Perhaps you could point to a news article or story that told more about the incident, particularly the crying children. After all, if we can't pass do-nothing laws in the name of crying children, in whose name can we pass them?
 
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Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

i find this amazing, first you say...you don't see the links, then without seeing them which you claim, ....you dismiss them.

the links are there, you just didn't want to see them

I did not see any links. I dismissed with them with appropriate cause as a courtesy taking you at your word for the dates.

edit_ EB - I was referring to your post 63. Apparently I missed your 61 which did have the dates. Sorry - that was my fault.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

In fact, I don't take at face value your account of the incident as it is told. Perhaps you could point to a news article or story that told more about the incident, particularly the crying children. After all, if we can't pass do-nothing laws in the name of crying children, in whose name can we pass them?

Here is the most recent one and the story confirms the cancellation of school trips. They not notify the schools after the incident I mentioned after Sandy Hook.

'Open Carry Day' at Michigan's capitol building - Fox 2 News Headlines

This is written by an NRA member who is critical of the event as I previously described in the Spring of 2013.

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/index.ssf/2014/04/guest_column_open_carry_advoca.html

If your dictionary says that an anecdote about a peaceful demonstration proves a need for gun control, it was written by morons.

Even NRA members recognized the danger this presented in the minds of children and parents. They are not morons.

I know what the duties of a teacher are. And they do not include indoctrinating my children with incorrect information about guns and their owners.

Indoctrination!?!?!?!?!?!? That is absurd. Responsible teachers and parents dealt with a very uncomfortable situation by removing children from an area where many armed men were resurrecting recent memories of Sandy Hook. That is NOT indoctrination. It is prudent management of a serious responsibility a teacher has to care for the children in their care.

I couldn't possibly care less what your experience has told you. And I feel sorry for any students who are forced to learn from teachers who share your limited view of rights. Any teacher worth his salt would have taken the children aside and explained that what was going on was a peaceful demonstration, that the guns posed no danger to them, and that what they were witnessing was representative democracy in action. They would also explain that you don't have to like the ideas that they are promoting, and that is what makes our country great.

Of course you don't because it clashes with your own ideology and belief system.

I have a very solid idea of rights. I taught Government for 33 years and spent a great deal of time on the Constitution and rights. But that IS NOT the issue. The issue is scared and crying children and parents who wanted to get the hell away from an area where armed men - not soldiers of police - were milling around with rifles on their backs so soon after Sandy Hook.

What prevents you from understanding that simple reality about children and their parents concern?
 
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Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian

The context of the 2nd amendment is about the militia (military), and in that context police are civilians.

Haymarket has been educated with that wiki definition that STATES US CODE. He claims US CODE is inferior to parlance reported by a dictionary
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Here is the most recent one and the story confirms the cancellation of school trips. They not notify the schools after the incident I mentioned after Sandy Hook.

'Open Carry Day' at Michigan's capitol building - Fox 2 News Headlines

And 57% of the school systems that had scheduled trips that day did not stay home. And as far as I can tell, there were no crying children on this particular day.

This is written by an NRA member who is critical of the event as I previously described in the Spring of 2013.

Guest column: Open carry advocates at gun rally should demonstrate best practices for firearms safety | MLive.com

Well there you have it. AN NRA member was critical. A member of a pro 2nd Amendment organization, a whole member, was critical of a peaceful demonstration that was planned and announced ahead of time. Well I guess I'll just change my whole world view now.

Even NRA members recognized the danger this presented in the minds of children and parents. They are not morons.

Right. In the MINDS of children and parents. As I pointed out before, danger in your mind is not the same as real danger. Now, if you can show me where someone was threatened, harassed, intimidated, or injured by one of these demonstrators then we can discuss that. I'm through talking about imagined dangers.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Distinctions made by the military declaring all others different than themselves have no relevance in normal American society outside of the military.

And the term CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL does indeed refer to law enforcement personnel over civilians.


Civilian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



and this

civilian - definition of civilian by The Free Dictionary




and this

civilian: definition of civilian in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)




and this

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=civilian



and this

civilian - definition. American English definition of civilian with pronunciation by Macmillan Dictionary



These are definitions that apply to American language as used in the USA.

those are all using parlance

and do tell us why firefighters would be considered non-civilians while FBI special agents, postal inspectors, sanitation workers and secret service agents clearly are

try this for size


BLS Glossary


Civilian noninstitutional population (Current Population Survey)
Included are persons 16 years of age and older residing in the 50 States and the District of Columbia who are not inmates of institutions (for example, penal and mental facilities, homes for the aged), and who are not on active duty in the Armed Forces.


Civilian workers (National Compensation Survey)
The National Compensation Survey defines Civilian Workers as the sum of all private industry and State and local government workers. Federal Government, military and agricultural workers are excluded.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Haymarket has been educated with that wiki definition that STATES US CODE. He claims US CODE is inferior to parlance reported by a dictionary


You have presented no such evidence of any law either state or federal which defines American police officers doing their job as civilians.

But please prove me wrong by simply producing such law.

Don't TELL us such a law exists: PRODUCE it.

Don't refer to some cite that you claim has such a law: PRODUCE IT.

Don't tell us about your sources which may support your claims: PRODUCE THEM.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

You have presented no such evidence of any law either state or federal which defines American police officers doing their job as civilians.

But please prove me wrong by simply producing such law.

Don't TELL us such a law exists: PRODUCE it.

Don't refer to some cite that you claim has such a law: PRODUCE IT.

Don't tell us about your sources which may support your claims: PRODUCE THEM.

why do you continually demand that we produce higher standards of proof than the crap you post in order to advance your disingenuous claims and your mistaken or dishonest arguments about who are civilians?
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

BLS Glossary


Civilian noninstitutional population (Current Population Survey)
Included are persons 16 years of age and older residing in the 50 States and the District of Columbia who are not inmates of institutions (for example, penal and mental facilities, homes for the aged), and who are not on active duty in the Armed Forces.


Civilian workers (National Compensation Survey)
The National Compensation Survey defines Civilian Workers as the sum of all private industry and State and local government workers. Federal Government, military and agricultural workers are excluded.

Those are specialized classifications for specialized purposes and have nothing to do with what is being discussed. They merely separate military from non-military.

YOur example A exempts lots of people including people in senior homes and prisons. Are they too NOT CIVILIANS or is that not the purpose of the source so it is rendered irrelevant and not applicable to your claim? Thats pretty easy to figure out.

Or are "agricultural workers" suddenly NOT CIVILIANS because they were excluded from you example B? :doh:lamo You cannot have it both ways.

It reminds me of your effort months ago where you claimed you found the definition only to find out the English clergy was also not civilians by their standards. That was pretty embarrassing for you and you never used it again. So now its agricultural workers that are exempt from your proof source. Terrific! :lamo
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Those are specialized classifications for specialized purposes and have nothing to do with what is being discussed. They merely separate military from non-military.

YOur example A exempts lots of people including people in senior homes and prisons. Are they too NOT CIVILIANS or is that not the purpose of the source so it is rendered irrelevant and not applicable to your claim? Thats pretty easy to figure out.

Or are "agricultural workers" suddenly NOT CIVILIANS because they were excluded from you example B? :doh:lamo You cannot have it both ways.

It reminds me of your effort months ago where you claimed you found the definition only to find out the English clergy was also not civilians by their standards. That was pretty embarrassing for you and you never used it again. So now its agricultural workers that are exempt from your proof source. Terrific! :lamo

you have zero support for the silly and dishonest claim that civilian cops are not civilians
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

why do you continually demand that we produce higher standards of proof than the crap you post in order to advance your disingenuous claims and your mistaken or dishonest arguments about who are civilians?

I will be happy to produce verifiable proof for any claim of fact I make.

Are you going to do the same? Start with the latest - show us the verifiable proof for your claim about the US CODE. Your inability to do so dooms your claim and renders it false on its face. But please do prove me wrong and produce it.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

you have zero support for the silly and dishonest claim that civilian cops are not civilians

You mean outside of all the experts on the English language I have produced. :lamo:doh:roll::lamo
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

I will be happy to produce verifiable proof for any claim of fact I make.

Are you going to do the same? Start with the latest - show us the verifiable proof for your claim about the US CODE. Your inability to do so dooms your claim and renders it false on its face. But please do prove me wrong and produce it.

parlance reported by a dictionary with no other support doesn't cut it Haymarket
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

You mean outside of all the experts on the English language I have produced. :lamo:doh:roll::lamo

who are the names of the experts?
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

who are the names of the experts?

the dictionaries I quoted were listed with links. Feel free to use them. They include
Merriam Webster Dictionary
MacMillan Dictionary
Oxford Dictionary
American Heritage Dictionary
The Free Dictionary

I can supply others if you think it will do any good.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

the dictionaries I quoted were listed with links. Feel free to use them. They include
Merriam Webster Dictionary
MacMillan Dictionary
Oxford Dictionary
American Heritage Dictionary
The Free Dictionary

I can supply others if you think it will do any good.

since a police department is a civilian agency, can you explain how it has the power to create something other then a civilian?
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

since a police department is a civilian agency, can you explain how it has the power to create something other then a civilian?

It has been explained many times in many threads that the term CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY is describing LAW ENFORCEMENT that has responsibility over civilians. It is NOT identifying police officers as civilians.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

Distinctions made by the military declaring all others different than themselves have no relevance in normal American society outside of the military.

And the term CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL does indeed refer to law enforcement personnel over civilians.


Civilian - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary



and this

civilian - definition of civilian by The Free Dictionary




and this

civilian: definition of civilian in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)




and this

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=civilian



and this

civilian - definition. American English definition of civilian with pronunciation by Macmillan Dictionary



These are definitions that apply to American language as used in the USA.

Obviously you can't comprehend or keep up with what's put in front of you. Your definitions have been shown to be irrelevant, as have all your arguments. We are talking about the military here because this thread is about gun control with respect to the 2nd Amendment. It's a shame I have to remind you of this. The police are not the militia, and are not called up by the President or Congress. They are not military, period. The only difference in real power between police and ordinary citizens is their power to enter property with probable cause and the power to arrest. I'll remind you again they are not military, they are part of civilian entities of govt.
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

It has been explained many times in many threads that the term CIVILIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY is describing LAW ENFORCEMENT that has responsibility over civilians. It is NOT identifying police officers as civilians.

i will rephrase......if you not a military member....and not a civilian.......what are you?
 
Re: What is the purpose of gun control?

i will rephrase......if you not a military member....and not a civilian.......what are you?

You're one of haymarket's ghosts. They're allowed to act like military without being military, but more than the People themselves. It doesn't make sense because it's all contrived BS with no basis in law.
 
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