What is more important to you, life or guns? (1 Viewer)

[vegas giants]

Actually as already stated.. when the UK did their gun control.. their murder rate went up exponentially and only went down when they added a tremendous number of police.

Facts are facts.

Plus.. actually when you compare violent crime from the US to the UK... the US has lower violent crime..including homocides (or at least comparable. Comparing murder rates is difficult because what the UK and the US defines as murder are different).

The fact is.. statistically.. I am probably much safer in the US than in the UK.

Fake news. You know you can not compare crime between the UK and US

 

[jaeger19]

Totally agree - but people will read what they want to read, no matter the facts presented, and skew an argument to their way of thinking.

The evidence is clear, since the late 90s (about the time the gun laws in the UK and Australia were introduced) gun related deaths dropped in those countries significantly, whilst increased significantly in the US. But no doubt, there will be many dismissive of these FACTS for whatever reason to suit their argument.

Strip away all the history and all the trends and look at one figure- that there are approx 14,000 gun related murders in the US every year and then ask yourself, if this is acceptable. If not, how do you reduce it. Unless you can achieve consensus around these points, then nothing will change. What I see is far too many denying there is any sort of problem, but the facts say otherwise.

Actually not true.. in fact.. I provided the evidence that prove you wrong.

For an example of homicide rates before and after a ban, take the case of the handgun ban in England and Wales in January 1997 (source here see Table 1.01 and the column marked “Offences currently recorded as homicide per million population,” UPDATED numbers available here). After the ban, clearly homicide rates bounce around over time, but there is only one year (2010) where the homicide rate is lower than it was in 1996. The immediate effect was about a 50 percent increase in homicide rates. Firearm homicide rate had almost doubled between 1996 and 2002 (see here p. 11). The homicide and firearm homicide rates only began falling when there was a large increase in the number of police officers during 2003 and 2004. Despite the huge increase in the number of police, the murder rate still remained slightly higher than the immediate pre-ban rate.

Updated: Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center

 

[jaeger19]

Fake news. You know you can not compare crime between the UK and US

That's funny.

So.. when you compare "gun deaths"...between the US and the UK... its fine...

but when I compare actual statistics on violent crime.. you don't like it.

Just more proof you don't like the facts Vegas.

The fact is..you can compare crime between the US and UK. Its not just as simple as using "murder"..and especially invalid is using "gun deaths".. (as you do).

but you can try to compare apples to apples.. and yes.. the UK is at least as violent and dangerous as the us.. and perhaps more so.

 

[humbolt]

true-vodka has killed more people than privately owned US assault rifles

I knew it. The only reason potatoes are legal at all is because of Idaho and right wing zealot potato lovers.

 

[vegas giants]

That's funny.

So.. when you compare "gun deaths"...between the US and the UK... its fine...

but when I compare actual statistics on violent crime.. you don't like it.

Just more proof you don't like the facts Vegas.

The fact is..you can compare crime between the US and UK. Its not just as simple as using "murder"..and especially invalid is using "gun deaths".. (as you do).

but you can try to compare apples to apples.. and yes.. the UK is at least as violent and dangerous as the us.. and perhaps more so.

No you can not because crimes are classified differently

 

[jaeger19]

No you can not because crimes are classified differently

Actually yes you can.. because 1. You can compare crimes based on what definitions they use.

2. You can compare overall violent crime rates because they encompass overall violent crime. So the difference between say rape and aggravated sexual assault.. don't really matter since they both fall into violent crime.

 

[vegas giants]

Actually yes you can.. because 1. You can compare crimes based on what definitions they use.

2. You can compare overall violent crime rates because they encompass overall violent crime. So the difference between say rape and aggravated sexual assault.. don't really matter since they both fall into violent crime.

Nope you cant and anyone who does is just lying

 

[jaeger19]

Nope you cant and anyone who does is just lying

Well actually you are the one lying.. by saying that. but its what we have all learned to expect from you.

 

[vegas giants]

Well actually you are the one lying.. by saying that. but its what we have all learned to expect from you.

Prove it. Lol

 

[jaeger19]

Prove it. Lol

Actually you made the argument that any researcher that tries to compare crime statistics between countries. is a liar.

Prove it. as you say.

 

[vegas giants]

Actually you made the argument that any researcher that tries to compare crime statistics between countries. is a liar.

Prove it. as you say.

Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does | PolitiFact


As we were conducting our research, we stumbled across a*thoughtful critique*of this claim on a blog called the Skeptical Libertarian that was written by Daniel Bier, a master’s degree candidate in economics at Rutgers University. (Bier fact-checked a claim that’s similar, though with slightly different wording than the meme we’re checking.)

Bier’s primary concern about comparing crime rates in the United Kingdom and the United States is that the definitions of crimes in each country are significantly different. This was not reflected in*news coverage*in*British newspapers*that appear to have been the source of the meme. This oversight produced a misleading comparison.

As Bier put it, "The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a ‘violent crime’ as one of four specific offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." By contrast, "the British definition includes all ‘crimes against the person,’ including simple assaults, all robberies, and all ‘sexual offenses,’ as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and ‘forcible rapes.’ "

Once you know this, Bier wrote, "it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the U.S. and the U.K. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes."

 

[Thorr]

Actually as already stated.. when the UK did their gun control.. their murder rate went up exponentially and only went down when they added a tremendous number of police.

Facts are facts.

Plus.. actually when you compare violent crime from the US to the UK... the US has lower violent crime..including homocides (or at least comparable. Comparing murder rates is difficult because what the UK and the US defines as murder are different).

The fact is.. statistically.. I am probably much safer in the US than in the UK.

Except, it didn’t, and statistically it is far safer in the UK than the US.

 

[TurtleDude]

Except, it didn’t, and statistically it is far safer in the UK than the US.

that is certainly true for violent criminals. The chances of them getting shot on the streets by honest folk is about zero-and in home invasions, very low

 

[vegas giants]

Except, it didn’t, and statistically it is far safer in the UK than the US.

Probably

 

[jaeger19]

Social media post says U.K. has far higher violent crime rate than U.S. does | PolitiFact


As we were conducting our research, we stumbled across a*thoughtful critique*of this claim on a blog called the Skeptical Libertarian that was written by Daniel Bier, a master’s degree candidate in economics at Rutgers University. (Bier fact-checked a claim that’s similar, though with slightly different wording than the meme we’re checking.)

Bier’s primary concern about comparing crime rates in the United Kingdom and the United States is that the definitions of crimes in each country are significantly different. This was not reflected in*news coverage*in*British newspapers*that appear to have been the source of the meme. This oversight produced a misleading comparison.

As Bier put it, "The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a ‘violent crime’ as one of four specific offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault." By contrast, "the British definition includes all ‘crimes against the person,’ including simple assaults, all robberies, and all ‘sexual offenses,’ as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and ‘forcible rapes.’ "

Once you know this, Bier wrote, "it becomes clear how misleading it is to compare rates of violent crime in the U.S. and the U.K. You’re simply comparing two different sets of crimes."

Except.. as the article also says... that when they did try to compare apples to apples.. using common definitions... what did they find out... YES.. the UK.. when comparing apples to apples as best they could.. did have a higher rate of violent crime.

Yep.. simply comparing homicide,, and murder,, etc gets tricky because of the definitions of manslaughter vs murder, vs.. whatever... but those comparisons CAN be made by using similar definitions... as the politifact did... and guess what they found.. yep it was higher.

 

[jaeger19]

Except, it didn’t, and statistically it is far safer in the UK than the US.

Well except that it did. I provided the evidence.... However, I would love to see you provide some evidence that refutes the evidence I provided. Please link to where you gt your information..

 

[vegas giants]

Except.. as the article also says... that when they did try to compare apples to apples.. using common definitions... what did they find out... YES.. the UK.. when comparing apples to apples as best they could.. did have a higher rate of violent crime.

Yep.. simply comparing homicide,, and murder,, etc gets tricky because of the definitions of manslaughter vs murder, vs.. whatever... but those comparisons CAN be made by using similar definitions... as the politifact did... and guess what they found.. yep it was higher.

You got nothing but opinion buddy. Dismissed

 

[jaeger19]

You got nothing but opinion buddy. Dismissed

Nope.. its what they wrote...

You lose again.. have a nice day vegas.

 

[Frigidweirdo]

Totally agree - but people will read what they want to read, no matter the facts presented, and skew an argument to their way of thinking.

The evidence is clear, since the late 90s (about the time the gun laws in the UK and Australia were introduced) gun related deaths dropped in those countries significantly, whilst increased significantly in the US. But no doubt, there will be many dismissive of these FACTS for whatever reason to suit their argument.

Strip away all the history and all the trends and look at one figure- that there are approx 14,000 gun related murders in the US every year and then ask yourself, if this is acceptable. If not, how do you reduce it. Unless you can achieve consensus around these points, then nothing will change. What I see is far too many denying there is any sort of problem, but the facts say otherwise.

Well no, in the UK gun murders INCREASED for a while.

Firearms Act: Twenty years on, has it made a difference? | The Independent

"“Perhaps not necessarily at first,” he says. “In fact, for the next four years gun crime continued to increase, by about 105 per cent over that period.”"

And murders were dropping in the US during this period too

United States Crime Rates 1960 - 2017


But to see this and then make the claim that the UK is a failure and the US laws are a success would be to completely lack any understanding of what was going on in each country during this time.

 

[Frigidweirdo]

Actually as already stated.. when the UK did their gun control.. their murder rate went up exponentially and only went down when they added a tremendous number of police.

Facts are facts.

Plus.. actually when you compare violent crime from the US to the UK... the US has lower violent crime..including homocides (or at least comparable. Comparing murder rates is difficult because what the UK and the US defines as murder are different).

The fact is.. statistically.. I am probably much safer in the US than in the UK.

Facts are facts. That doesn't mean that facts prove something.

Funny Graphs Show Correlation Between Completely Unrelated Stats | 22 Words

You have a correlation between divorces in Maine and margarine consumption in the US. Does that mean that margarine consumption and divorce in Maine are connected?

You can look at the others and see that people can take facts and they can misuse them to get them to say whatever they like.

Firearms Act: Twenty years on, has it made a difference? | The Independent

"The reason gun crime continued to rise was because the definition was too wide-ranging; it included everything and anything, every single report where a victim reported that a gun was used, even if that gun was never fired, even if it was a replica, or a fake, or even a toy. So by 2003, the laws were refined.

The use of air weapons and pellet guns, which made up a large number of gun crime complaints, was taken out of the Firearms Act and put under the auspices of the new Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003, which meant gun crime figures purely under their Firearms Act definition began to decrease markedly thanks to reclassification taking air weapons out of the equation."

How facts are presented is important.

Sweden has one of the highest rape rates in the world. Not because they have more rape than other countries, but because they encourage people to report rape. Whereas the US has a low rate because women are afraid of reporting rape because they know the system might not deal with it and their trauma will be even worse.

Also, violent crime in the US and violent crime in the UK are two very different things. The UK includes a lot more things.

By the Numbers: Is the UK really 5 times more violent than the US? – The Skeptical Libertarian

"What Swann either doesn’t know, or simply doesn’t bother to tell his viewers, is that the definitions for “violent crime” are very different in the US and Britain, and the methodologies of the two statistics he cites are also different."

"Second, and more importantly, the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports defines a “violent crime” as one of four specific offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault.

The British Home Office, by contrast, has a substantially different definition of violent crime. The British definition includes all “crimes against the person,” including simple assaults, all robberies, and all “sexual offenses,” as opposed to the FBI, which only counts aggravated assaults and “forcible rapes.”"

So, to take "facts" and present them without knowledge of what you're looking at, isn't the smartest move.

 

[vegas giants]

Nope.. its what they wrote...

You lose again.. have a nice day vegas.

You have no facts. They must not be your friends. Lol

 

[Logician Man]

Life...

 

[jamesrage]

Text - H.R.4296 - 103rd Congress (1993-1994): Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act | Congress.gov | Library of Congress

I read the part about Assault Weapon is says nothing about assault rifles. Maybe you found something in that link I didn't and can post the text that classifies assault rifles as assault weapons.

 

[jamesrage]

Bang my head against a ****ing wall

Your argument stinks. The UK has had gun control for hundreds of years. Literally hundreds of years. And they've had lower murder rates for the whole damn time. The US had easy access to guns for all for the whole of its history and has had much higher murder rates for the whole of its history.

Which part of this doesn't make sense?

You're literally coming here with NO KNOWLEDGE of the UK and then trying to pull an argument out of almost nothing.

Again that doesn't prove gun control works when the UK has already had low amount of homicides.Notice I said homicides not gun murders.Because murder is murder and doesn't give the victim's loved ones any relief if their loved ones were murdered with one weapons instead of another. The 1996 hand gun ban didn't stop mass shootings from happening.

 

[vegas giants]

I read the part about Assault Weapon is says nothing about assault rifles. Maybe you found something in that link I didn't and can post the text that classifies assault rifles as assault weapons.

You have a legal definition of assault rifle? Great let's see it.